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Binaural Location by Ngo Minh Ngoc

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Comments

  • @Blue_Mangoo : have been happily working up some examples to screencast -- there are so many possibilities. This is a really great plug-in.

    Something that I have run into twice is that when adding a third or fourth instance that the other instances seem to stop having an effect. For example, I have four channels of drums (kick, snare, hat 1, and hat 2 on their own channels) and was adding an instance of Binaural Location on each of those tracks and adjusting them. When I added the third or fourth instance and was adjusting its location, all the other instances seemed to stop working. I went back to them to adjust them and the adjustments had no impact. After resetting RAM and restarting the project, it all worked fine.

    This was in AUM and while it could be my imagination (since it seems unlikely that one instance could cause the other instances to misbehave), I thought I'd mention it in case others have run into it.

  • @Crawlingwind said:
    I am curious also. Maybe we will see a comparison soon.

    @cuscolima said:

    @gusgranite said:
    I wonder how it compares to Virtual Room?

    +1. Is it better?

    I'll try to make a video soon, but it looks like Virtual Room is a little better. I'll explain. On an effects chain in Nanostudio 2, I use the Stereo Gain to pan the signal to the left. Then I use one of the 3D panners. When I move the left sound source to the right in Virtual Room, it sounds like it's coming from the right - the expected behaviour. When I do the same in Binaural Location (in static mode, not orbit mode), the sound still sounds from the left albeit more muffled. To me this is weird.

    Furthermore, when I go to a different screen and back to Virtual Room, the positions of the two sound sources remain the same. When I do the same in Binaural Location, the positions of each sound source are moved.

    Again, once I get some freetime, I'll provide a video explaining everything.

  • @jwmmakerofmusic said:

    @Crawlingwind said:
    I am curious also. Maybe we will see a comparison soon.

    @cuscolima said:

    @gusgranite said:
    I wonder how it compares to Virtual Room?

    +1. Is it better?

    I'll try to make a video soon, but it looks like Virtual Room is a little better. I'll explain. On an effects chain in Nanostudio 2, I use the Stereo Gain to pan the signal to the left. Then I use one of the 3D panners. When I move the left sound source to the right in Virtual Room, it sounds like it's coming from the right - the expected behaviour. When I do the same in Binaural Location (in static mode, not orbit mode), the sound still sounds from the left albeit more muffled. To me this is weird.

    Furthermore, when I go to a different screen and back to Virtual Room, the positions of the two sound sources remain the same. When I do the same in Binaural Location, the positions of each sound source are moved.

    Again, once I get some freetime, I'll provide a video explaining everything.

    Cool, I like the fact there there's two versions of VIrtualRoom, The 'Pro' version also offers control over elevation of both listening and speaker positions which is pretty neat :)

  • @RockySmalls said:

    @Blue_Mangoo said:
    Hm... This happens quite frequently, but this is the first time I have heard of it not being resolved by rebooting the iPad.

    tried a few more reboots, including one with the stand alone open... nothing! FYI, it doesn’t appear in other au locations either, ferrite, auria pro, twisted wave, meteor..
    what’s to do?

    When you rebooted , did you power down?

  • Did you start the stand-alone first before trying to use the AUv3?
    (Some plug-ins behave strangely if the stand-alone has not been launched first, even if to doesn't do anything).

  • @Samu said:

    @Blue_Mangoo said:

    What do you have in mind regarding the start phases?

    Being able to sync and/or offset the orbits between L & R.
    One could as an example start at 0 and the other at 90 or even 180 degrees.

    And maybe to sync the orbit speeds to BPM since in practice it's two LFOs.
    So for example full trip around the orbit could be 1-4 bars based on the host tempo or spin even faster.

    Have not checked if it's possible to change shapes of the orbits yet but from the video it looks like that can be done.
    So in some cases instead of only a circle it could move just back and front?

    A circle can be made from two sine-waves what about different 'speeds' for X & Y axis to create more 'shapes'?

    (Just an example doesn't have to be that complicated).

    Those are just some initial thoughts.

    It would also be interesting to independently set the direction of the orbits.

  • @espiegel123 said:

    It would also be interesting to independently set the direction of the orbits.

    Yeah, like 'negative speed control'.

    Playing too much with this stuff may cause dizziness and nausea.
    Add automated elevation for listening position and speakers and well...
    (I've almost vomited when using Rozeta LFO to control VirtualRoom Pro).

  • @Samu said:
    (I've almost vomited when using Rozeta LFO to control VirtualRoom Pro).

    Impressive advertisement 😂. what kind of audio signal were you tweaking?

  • @Hmtx said:

    @Samu said:
    (I've almost vomited when using Rozeta LFO to control VirtualRoom Pro).

    Impressive advertisement 😂. what kind of audio signal were you tweaking?

    LOL, one speaker had a 4/4 kick(Noir) and the other had a drone(auGEN X thru FAC Chorus) and two instances of Rozeta LFO. Now imagine the darn kick first hitting you in the head then bellow the belt while the drone spins around your head.

    Needed to use pan and busses in AUM to feed Left & Right 'speakers' in VirtualRoom Pro with different sources and then modulate the Virtual Room Pro parameters with Rozeta LFOs.

    Will see I have the 'guts' to re-create that session again without having to rush to the CR...

    Another form 'self torture' is to use two sine-waves (Left & Right ear) with one of them being phase-inverted and slightly detuned (1-6Hz or so) and maybe slow vibrato too and yeah, and say hello to nausea...

  • @espiegel123 said:

    @RockySmalls said:

    @Blue_Mangoo said:
    Hm... This happens quite frequently, but this is the first time I have heard of it not being resolved by rebooting the iPad.

    tried a few more reboots, including one with the stand alone open... nothing! FYI, it doesn’t appear in other au locations either, ferrite, auria pro, twisted wave, meteor..
    what’s to do?

    When you rebooted , did you power down?

    yep & yep... but thanks for yr concern.. it’s a weird one!

  • @RockySmalls said:

    @espiegel123 said:

    @RockySmalls said:

    @Blue_Mangoo said:
    Hm... This happens quite frequently, but this is the first time I have heard of it not being resolved by rebooting the iPad.

    tried a few more reboots, including one with the stand alone open... nothing! FYI, it doesn’t appear in other au locations either, ferrite, auria pro, twisted wave, meteor..
    what’s to do?

    When you rebooted , did you power down?

    yep & yep... but thanks for yr concern.. it’s a weird one!

    Good luck. That is weird. Gremlins.

  • @Samu said:
    Did you start the stand-alone first before trying to use the AUv3?
    (Some plug-ins behave strangely if the stand-alone has not been launched first, even if to doesn't do anything).

    yes absolutely , first time at least, i usually do that anyway because of the mic permission thing. , i’ve tried a few different permutations, re-install with reboot before opening, reboot then stand alone opened,, then reboot & not touching the stand alone... but of course there are a good few permutations to try still.. watch this space..

  • @Samu said:

    @espiegel123 said:

    It would also be interesting to independently set the direction of the orbits.

    Yeah, like 'negative speed control'.

    Playing too much with this stuff may cause dizziness and nausea.
    Add automated elevation for listening position and speakers and well...
    (I've almost vomited when using Rozeta LFO to control VirtualRoom Pro).

    heh heh.. that sounds familiar.. a friend & myself nearly had to get fresh trousers back in the 80’s playing straight 16 beats of the bass drum on a dr-55 through 2 delay lines into a bass amp then gradually turning up the tempo and changing delay lengths until the bowel churning put a stop to that little experiment.. i might risk that lfo virtualroom thing just for old times sake :)

  • I've only had a quick play with this... but so far I'm finding it more pronounced and a more convincing spatial illusion than the Virtual Room AU that I also have.

    I can hear the effects easily even without headphones via the built-in iPad speakers.

    I think this would be interesting to experiment with on video projects with multi-layer soundtracks.

  • I made a little Demo project in AUM to gauge it's value as an FX app. In that context the rotating "Orbits" feature is the most dramatic use case for me:

    Track 1 - Pure Synth Platinum Strings - Binaural FX Orbits turned on after 5 seconds until end
    Track 2 - Bassalicious - Binaural FX Orbits turned on after 10 seconds (1/2 way) until end
    Track 3 - Future Drummer - Binaural FX Orbits turned on at 15 second mark until end

    Short but you can hear if this is useful in you tool box to get that swimming rotary feeling.
    It really had a big EQ effect on the subby bass preset.

    Of course, it can also be useful for mastering and the placement of instruments in the stereo image.

  • edited June 2019

    I did like Virtual Room a while ago but the CPU was very very heavy... but now I do have a better iPad but I would still be curious how this one compares to Virtual Room. Also, I do wonder if it can be automated in BM3. So I guess I will just buy it and find out. ;)

  • Is there a way to do a screen capture in stereo or do I have to record the sound in in AUM (or other host) when doing the screen recording and then add it as the soundtrack in my video editor?

  • wimwim
    edited June 2019

    On just the iPad? No.
    I read about a way to capture vid and stereo audio using QuickTime on a Mac. I never tried it though since I don’t have one.

    I always just load AUM or AudioShare as an output then do as you say - replace the audio. This also avoids problems with no audio being recorded sometimes when you switch to or load apps.

  • So Distance, Panning...does it do Height?
    Looking for a Roland RSS style effect.

  • @espiegel123 said:
    Is there a way to do a screen capture in stereo or do I have to record the sound in in AUM (or other host) when doing the screen recording and then add it as the soundtrack in my video editor?

    You can do a loop back thing with an audio device where the output is plugged into the input and then the screen recording is in ((((((STEREO)))))))

  • @espiegel123 said:
    @Blue_Mangoo : have been happily working up some examples to screencast -- there are so many possibilities. This is a really great plug-in.

    Something that I have run into twice is that when adding a third or fourth instance that the other instances seem to stop having an effect. For example, I have four channels of drums (kick, snare, hat 1, and hat 2 on their own channels) and was adding an instance of Binaural Location on each of those tracks and adjusting them. When I added the third or fourth instance and was adjusting its location, all the other instances seemed to stop working. I went back to them to adjust them and the adjustments had no impact. After resetting RAM and restarting the project, it all worked fine.

    This was in AUM and while it could be my imagination (since it seems unlikely that one instance could cause the other instances to misbehave), I thought I'd mention it in case others have run into it.

    We will check this and work on fixing it.

  • @jwmmakerofmusic
    You said:

    When I do the same in Binaural Location (in static mode, not orbit mode), the sound still sounds from the left albeit more muffled. To me this is weird.

    That is weird. It sounds like a bug. Thanks for reporting it. I was hearing something similar during testing but I didn’t pan left at the input so I wasn’t able to pin it down clearly like you did. (I thought maybe I just had more earwax in my right ear). We can fix this.

  • Closest plugin to Waves Doppler on iOS?

  • @ocelot said:
    So Distance, Panning...does it do Height?
    Looking for a Roland RSS style effect.

    Many research studies in the field of psychoacoustics have shown that the human perception of the vertical location of sounds depends on the shape of each individual person’s ears, because the unique way sounds reflect off of the folds in the skin when the sound comes from different angles is a major part of our perception. Just putting putty in the folds of your outer ear totally distorts your perception. See this video for an example of this:

    Skip ahead to 4:30 to see the demo.

    The problem with making an app that does the vertical dimension of location is that in order to do it well, we need a picture of the listener’s ears, because every person’s ears reflect sound differently.

    Edit: I was looking for a link to a research paper that explains why you need a picture of the listener’s ears and I came across this very new article (March 2019) that claims to have a method for doing it for the general case of all listeners, without measuring their ears. It’s less effective than it would be if they had a photo of your ears, but still an improvement.

    https://www.researchgate.net/publication/331691501_Spectral_manipulation_improves_elevation_perception_with_non-individualized_head-related_transfer_functions

    Because this paper only came out three months ago, I’m very curious to know how well virtual room does with the third dimension. I haven’t tried it yet because I didn’t know it existed until users in this thread mentioned it.

  • @RockySmalls said:

    @espiegel123 said:

    @RockySmalls said:

    @Blue_Mangoo said:
    Hm... This happens quite frequently, but this is the first time I have heard of it not being resolved by rebooting the iPad.

    tried a few more reboots, including one with the stand alone open... nothing! FYI, it doesn’t appear in other au locations either, ferrite, auria pro, twisted wave, meteor..
    what’s to do?

    When you rebooted , did you power down?

    yep & yep... but thanks for yr concern.. it’s a weird one!

    I can’t remember the specific date, but we got complaints at some point in the past that some audio units weren’t being listed for new installs on a certain version of iOS 12. And a week or so later another update from Apple and all was fine. The picture I am getting from reading in this thread confirms what I vaguely remember: it worked on iOS 12.0, but then not on some later versions, and then worked again on newer versions. If i remember correctly it may have had something to do with the way the name of the plugin is spelled when we report it to the audio unit host. Like you couldn’t have spaces or colons or something like that.

    If that’s really the case then we are really stuck with your case, until you can update iOS.

  • @Blue_Mangoo
    Reporting back:
    IOS 12.1.1
    Reboot iPad Pro.
    Invisible :neutral:

    I may update to current IOS - but before I do,
    can I run this at 48K ?

    I would like to send/return audio from my Mac via IDAM, ( I never use 44.1k )

  • @McD said:
    I made a little Demo project in AUM to gauge it's value as an FX app. In that context the rotating "Orbits" feature is the most dramatic use case for me:

    Track 1 - Pure Synth Platinum Strings - Binaural FX Orbits turned on after 5 seconds until end
    Track 2 - Bassalicious - Binaural FX Orbits turned on after 10 seconds (1/2 way) until end
    Track 3 - Future Drummer - Binaural FX Orbits turned on at 15 second mark until end

    Short but you can hear if this is useful in you tool box to get that swimming rotary feeling.
    It really had a big EQ effect on the subby bass preset.

    Of course, it can also be useful for mastering and the placement of instruments in the stereo image.

    I agree with this. When we developed this app we originally didn’t have the orbits in it. When we got the binaural audio working and started testing it we were very pleased with how convincing the effect was, but then we got bored. I didn’t think I would actually use it on a musical track because if people listened on speakers they wouldn’t even get the binaural immersion. We hope the orbit mode will be more useful musically, because you can put it on a track and it will do something interesting and unique to the sound regardless of whether you listen on headphones or speakers.

  • @espiegel123 said:
    Is there a way to do a screen capture in stereo or do I have to record the sound in in AUM (or other host) when doing the screen recording and then add it as the soundtrack in my video editor?

    You can plug your iPad into a Mac, start up QuickTime, and select New => movie recording (NOT new screen recording) and it will allow you to record audio and video from your iPad, but then you won’t get the audio from your voice unless you have the mic input monitoring turned on in your iPad.

  • @Blue_Mangoo said:

    @RockySmalls said:

    @espiegel123 said:

    @RockySmalls said:

    @Blue_Mangoo said:
    Hm... This happens quite frequently, but this is the first time I have heard of it not being resolved by rebooting the iPad.

    tried a few more reboots, including one with the stand alone open... nothing! FYI, it doesn’t appear in other au locations either, ferrite, auria pro, twisted wave, meteor..
    what’s to do?

    When you rebooted , did you power down?

    yep & yep... but thanks for yr concern.. it’s a weird one!

    I can’t remember the specific date, but we got complaints at some point in the past that some audio units weren’t being listed for new installs on a certain version of iOS 12. And a week or so later another update from Apple and all was fine. The picture I am getting from reading in this thread confirms what I vaguely remember: it worked on iOS 12.0, but then not on some later versions, and then worked again on newer versions. If i remember correctly it may have had something to do with the way the name of the plugin is spelled when we report it to the audio unit host. Like you couldn’t have spaces or colons or something like that.

    If that’s really the case then we are really stuck with your case, until you can update iOS.

    if it is something as simple as that .. what would be the problem with changing the spelling of the Au ‘report to host’ at this early stage? it is a relatively simple Au effect.. so not much problem for people to clear and re-assign the plug-in in projects i imagine.
    but I guess you will have to get a few more reports of the same problem than the 2 or 3 here on this forum to bother maybe? so i hope it’s a successful au.. the more sales the more invisible instances! i doubt i have a unique ipad configuration.
    and I have been tempted into updating my ios version before now to solve an app problem... it didn’t solve the problem. once bitten etc...
    sounds like you have a few more teething troubles to attend to so I’ll keep a look out for updates.

  • @Blue_Mangoo said:

    @ocelot said:
    So Distance, Panning...does it do Height?
    Looking for a Roland RSS style effect.

    Many research studies in the field of psychoacoustics have shown that the human perception of the vertical location of sounds depends on the shape of each individual person’s ears, because the unique way sounds reflect off of the folds in the skin when the sound comes from different angles is a major part of our perception. Just putting putty in the folds of your outer ear totally distorts your perception. See this video for an example of this:

    Skip ahead to 4:30 to see the demo.

    The problem with making an app that does the vertical dimension of location is that in order to do it well, we need a picture of the listener’s ears, because every person’s ears reflect sound differently.

    Edit: I was looking for a link to a research paper that explains why you need a picture of the listener’s ears and I came across this very new article (March 2019) that claims to have a method for doing it for the general case of all listeners, without measuring their ears. It’s less effective than it would be if they had a photo of your ears, but still an improvement.

    https://www.researchgate.net/publication/331691501_Spectral_manipulation_improves_elevation_perception_with_non-individualized_head-related_transfer_functions

    Because this paper only came out three months ago, I’m very curious to know how well virtual room does with the third dimension. I haven’t tried it yet because I didn’t know it existed until users in this thread mentioned it.

    Wow, so modifying the shape of the flappy part of our ears completely throws off our ability to locate where a sound is coming from. Didn't know that. Thanks!

    How about filtering out more bass the higher it is? Not realistic enough?

    I know you're busy but an idea for another psychoacoustic plugin, but based on reverberation? Roland RSS-10. You can hear it all over Geogaddi by Boards of Canada.

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