PSA: Don't update to iOS 12.4 if you use apps in AB output slot or IAA apps that use the mic.
https://forum.audiob.us/discussion/34030/urgent-psa-hold-off-updating-to-ios-12-4-if-you-use-apps-in-output-slot-in-audiobus

1* Ipad Pro 10,5 vs. 2* Ipad 2017 9,7

24

Comments

  • @Bon_Tempi exactly that. At the moment software seems to be the bottleneck as on paper pro 10.5 is more than twice as powerful as air 2 but in real life it probably translates to no more than 25%. This is a massive estimate though and in no way a scientific statement, just what it felt like.

  • @Bon_Tempi said:

    @AudioGus said:

    I believe the screen on both the Air 1 and 2017 9.7 is the same

    I have both. They are the same. Also, I have used the Pro and see negligible difference in the screen to be honest.

    Dear AudioGus - so do you have real world experience with the 2017 9,7 - and the 10,5 Pro?

    can you tell me a bit about their performance in running several apps - and what is your opinon about the question: will I be able to do as much with 2x Ipad 2017 9,7 compared to a single Ipad Pro 10,5 ? the quality of the the screen would not be my first decision maker here ...

    I do have the 2017 9.7 but have only used the 10.5 Pro for painting in Procreate, not for music.

    As for just the 2017 I am very happy with it and can run many apps. If you have a specific group of apps you are curious about i could do a quick stress test for you.

  • edited January 2018

    @Bon_Tempi said:
    yes, thanks - this helps - but - one more thing came to my mind -

    so you have never experienced this kind of buffer size/latency issues described by "Soundshaper" ?
    may I ask on which IOS you are running your Ipad - and if you experienced any problem with the IOS?

    Alas, I don’t have Model 15 and don’t do live performance. Perhaps because I am using this gear in different ways to Mr Soundshaper, I’ve not had his problems.

    I did have serious hardware issues, about three months after buying the Pro. Apple were useless. Eventually, I believe they found a way to bypass whatever was causing these problems via software, and incorporated it into IOS.

    I am running the latest IOS, and aside from minor issues with the App Store, and sound control not being automatically returned to the iPad after sending to external source, I have no problems with this iteration.

  • @supadom said:
    @Bon_Tempi exactly that. At the moment software seems to be the bottleneck as on paper pro 10.5 is more than twice as powerful as air 2 but in real life it probably translates to no more than 25%. This is a massive estimate though and in no way a scientific statement, just what it felt like.

    Maybe it also has something to do with cranking the refresh rate to ridiculous levels too.

  • edited February 2018

    @AudioGus said:

    @supadom said:
    @Bon_Tempi exactly that. At the moment software seems to be the bottleneck as on paper pro 10.5 is more than twice as powerful as air 2 but in real life it probably translates to no more than 25%. This is a massive estimate though and in no way a scientific statement, just what it felt like.

    Maybe it also has something to do with cranking the refresh rate to ridiculous levels too.

    Are you talking about display frane rate, right? I've limited that in settings to 60fps but it hasn't really helped. There clearly is extra processing involved with the bigger fancier screen.

    The bottom line for me is the actual, real world use and there it didn't quite impress me.

    This is me though, other set ups might work perfectly. I don't want to be, singlehandedly responsible for slump in sales in the first quarter '18 though so keep buying :)

  • edited February 2018

    @supadom said:

    @AudioGus said:

    @supadom said:
    @Bon_Tempi exactly that. At the moment software seems to be the bottleneck as on paper pro 10.5 is more than twice as powerful as air 2 but in real life it probably translates to no more than 25%. This is a massive estimate though and in no way a scientific statement, just what it felt like.

    Maybe it also has something to do with cranking the refresh rate to ridiculous levels too.

    Are you talking about display frane rate, right? I've limited that in settings to 60fps but it hasn't really helped. There clearly is extra processing involved with the bigger fancier screen.

    The bottom line for me is the actual, real world use and there it didn't quite impress me.

    This is me though, other set ups might work perfectly. I don't want to be, singlehandedly responsible for slump in sales in the first quarter '18 though so keep buying :)

    I hear yah and think we are on the same page. Apple simply pushing the GPU to be capable of this sexier display with pencil support may be related to a general over extending or compromising of other related components that may also be responsible for aspects of audio as well, regardless of what rate the user chooses, (bus, memory, i dunno). Simply being able to flip that switch may even have an overhead even in the off state. Some articles say that even when you set the FPS to cap at 60 the display is still interpolating / potentiating at 120hz, but I am not an engineer and certainly not trying to crack the specific nub on this but it is likely an accumulation of factors. https://www.macobserver.com/analysis/120hz-refresh-rate/

    But yah, from an Apple perspective your average user does not care about many streams of audio like we do so if a nip and tuck here and there effects the minority of niche fanastics like us then so be it in Apple buisness spreadsheet land. More than twice the power on paper boiling down to 25% seems to imply this. If Apple said you can get twice as many tracks in your fav DAW people would think Apple lost their noodles with a chorus of ‘what? Big deal’ but saying ‘display twice as awesome and you can draw on it’ at least registers as an actual thing with most people.

    To me the display has been awesome ever since the ipad went retina and bluetooth styluses now work waaaaay better than they did just a couple years ago so I have no more rats from which to gives asses. I say this until I get a Pro and fall in love with it ;)

  • @MusicMan4Christ said:
    I went from Air 1 to iPad 2017 9.7 and the screen is beautiful to me. But the best part is that the difference in CPU juice is quite noticeable especially when running Syntronik Arp sets. It really is such a great price. But then again, I’ve never seen an Air2 screen in person. I guess sometimes ignorance is bliss. :D

    and may I ask - how many and what kind of apps can you run at the same time on the 2017 Ipad 9,7 wihout getitng glitches while switching between the apps? and on which buffer size are you using it - are you on low levels (128-256) so that latency doesn´t become a problem ... ?

  • @supadom said:
    Latency is the time between your hitting of a key/pad and the sound playing. It is particularly noticeable while playing quick notes which often (but not only) happens when playing percussive sounds (drums). When latency is too high you might encounter issues with sequencers recording notes in wrong places, even more so when quantisation is active notes might be shifted in the next available measure. When recording this might result in audio recording with a delay. Both things can be adjusted afterwards but when you're playing live it isn't always desirable. Even when just recording at home it can become tedious to have to adjust all the notes and it is better to work with lowest latency possible. 256 frames is probably the highest I'm comfortable with.

    Other than the lower the latency the more software instrument feels like real instrument as it responds immediately as a real instrument would.

    ok - thanks - got that now - but that means a buffer size of 256 would still be accetable for live recording? but 128 might be a nicer thing to have - right?

    @supadom said:
    @Bon_Tempi exactly that. At the moment software seems to be the bottleneck as on paper pro 10.5 is more than twice as powerful as air 2 but in real life it probably translates to no more than 25%. This is a massive estimate though and in no way a scientific statement, just what it felt like.

    wow, interesting - but if this is the fact - (and I truly haven´t expected this gap between paper specs and real world performance to be such a big/huge one) - but then I really can´t see a reason why I should be going for the 10,5 pro here - cause combining either 2x Ipad Air2 or 2x Ipad 2017 9,7 - or maybe best might be a mix of both models - for example: 1x Ipad 2017 9,7 128 GB + 1x Air 2 64 GB migth give me much more performance power and stability ...

    but if I would go this way - I ought to find a way to keep both ipads in sync, right?

    best way to do so is Ableton Link? are there any alternatives?
    and what can I do if I want to sync an app which is not enabled for Ableton Link yet? cause as I understood it - each single app has to be abled to connect to Link right?

  • @Zen210507 said:
    Alas, I don’t have Model 15 and don’t do live performance. Perhaps because I am using this gear in different ways to Mr Soundshaper, I’ve not had his problems.

    I did have serious hardware issues, about three months after buying the Pro. Apple were useless. Eventually, I believe they found a way to bypass whatever was causing these problems via software, and incorporated it into IOS.

    I am running the latest IOS, and aside from minor issues with the App Store, and sound control not being automatically returned to the iPad after sending to external source, I have no problems with this iteration.

    can you describe your way of using the 10,5 Pro? how many apps at the same time? which apps? recording at the same time? and at which buffer size?

  • @AudioGus said:
    I do have the 2017 9.7 but have only used the 10.5 Pro for painting in Procreate, not for music.

    As for just the 2017 I am very happy with it and can run many apps. If you have a specific group of apps you are curious about i could do a quick stress test for you.

    oh - wow - that would be great if you could do so - thanks for this chance ...

    of course I dont know which apps and or hardware you have at home - but maybe it makes sense if I just write down what I have in mind and which apps I would like to use - as examples - and then you can decide along your options in what way and how you can realize this stress test ...

    and yes - a set up I would be curious about would be the following:

    2x drummachines: pattering - elastc drums - waldorf attack

    2x synths + 1 effect on each synth: model 15 - drc synth - troublemaker - shoom - korg ims 20 - syntronik - layr

    2x noisy apps: samplr - borderlands - idensity

    1x fugue machine playing another app - for example: tines

    1x Loopy HD recording on of the synths

    1x an external keyboard playing one of the synth

    all of it set up in audiobus - and running at the lowest possible buffer size - preferred at 128 or 256 ...

    and getting recorded to cubasis at single tracks ...


    am very curious what you will be abled to report afterwards ,,, and if you will encounter any limits/glitches there already ...

    thanks again ...

  • edited February 2018

    I put my in Airplane mode:

    So in AB3 I can run without glitches:

    Navichord
    Addictive Pro synth
    Two instances of Poison 202 Synth
    Rock Drum Machine
    AUM Hosting DDMF AU Effects

    At 256 buffer So far it all runs super smooth :)

    @Bon_Tempi said:

    @MusicMan4Christ said:
    I went from Air 1 to iPad 2017 9.7 and the screen is beautiful to me. But the best part is that the difference in CPU juice is quite noticeable especially when running Syntronik Arp sets. It really is such a great price. But then again, I’ve never seen an Air2 screen in person. I guess sometimes ignorance is bliss. :D

    and may I ask - how many and what kind of apps can you run at the same time on the 2017 Ipad 9,7 wihout getitng glitches while switching between the apps? and on which buffer size are you using it - are you on low levels (128-256) so that latency doesn´t become a problem ... ?

  • edited February 2018

    Cool, cool, this will be a fun Saturday exercise. Some notes on my past experience with...

    @Bon_Tempi said:

    2x drummachines: pattering - elastc drums - waldorf attack

    I would omit Attack as a realtime instrument option but would certainly use it as a sound generator for making sample kits for Patterning. Attack does not have Link or IAA sync.

    So Patterning and Elastic Drums it shall be.

    2x synths + 1 effect on each synth: model 15 - drc synth - troublemaker - shoom - korg ims 20 - syntronik - layr

    Alrighty...

    2x noisy apps: samplr - borderlands - idensity

    As much as I love Borderlands as a happy accident sketcher / sampler finder etc it has a habit of making things wonky system wide and can introduce instability. I use it more or less by itself for quick 'record it to audio' and get the f#*& out scenarios.

    Samplr and iDensity have both been good to me with other apps etc.

    1x fugue machine playing another app - for example: tines

    I don't have Tines but will pop in another comparable Klevgrand app for parity.

    1x Loopy HD recording on of the synths

    Hmmmm, I have not tried Loopy HD much but... will see... this is an interesting twist...

    1x an external keyboard playing one of the synth

    Will use my Nord or Circuit for midi duties, should be fine.

    all of it set up in audiobus - and running at the lowest possible buffer size - preferred at 128 or 256 ...

    Hmmmm, I will think about AB but if we want multitrack recording it may be best to host things elsewhere rather than do lots of audio piping...

    and getting recorded to cubasis at single tracks ...

    AB piping into Cubasis for recording? Hmmmm, I will think about this one... it really may be best to just use AUM for both hosting and recording as Cubasis does not have Link and the more we pipe audio around etc the more potential points of failure we introduce as well. Plus if two ipads are individually recording their own sound internally than Link is pretty much required. (The masochist in me wants to try two BM3s for this... maybe after.)

    Anyway I will try and give this a whirl on Saturday or Sunday... and consider Cubasis and IAA sync... but have a feeling two AUMs recording on two separate iPads will be the winning formula, then just dropping it all in Cubasis after the fact. Who knows maybe AUM and my 2017 ipad can handle this all by itself...? the latency on the midi keyboard etc likely requires the second iPad though and for me to use two Roland Duo Captures for audio/midi interfaces.

    (Hmmmm, strokes chin, approaches chalk board)

  • edited February 2018

    @Bon_Tempi said:
    can you describe your way of using the 10,5 Pro? how many apps at the same time? which apps? recording at the same time? and at which buffer size?

    >

    How long is a piece of string.

    We, as in IOS studio band RTM, work with iPad Pros. We use apps such as Blocs Wave, Auria Pro (with filters and FX on most tracks), Sample Tank, BeatHawk, TwistedWave, AudioBus and AUM both with whatever apps are required for making a particular track. On individual iPads there might be one, or half a dozen apps open at a time, with additional in-app AU and/or IAA FX. Files then fly around via Dropbox. So far, we have not had any issues doing this stuff. You can hear the results via our BandCamp page, and regardless of whether it’s your kind of music, you will hopefully be able to hear that polished results are possible.

    https://repulsethemonkey.bandcamp.com/album/monkey-see-monkey-do

    Many others here can provide other examples, which may help. Among those others, of course, there will be entirely different workflows. Many will be using a lot more actual tracks than we do, and working much more in midi. Obviously, such people are infinitely better qualified to tell you what limits they have found than I.

    You could also look up last year’s Doug Woods benefit album, link below, featuring lots of music makers from these parts. Just find who is doing stuff in the same area you like, and ask them how they do this work. :)

    https://studio4632benefit.bandcamp.com/album/the-doug-woods-benefit-album

  • I concord with @AudioGus you're better off piping stuff to audioshare for recording. Cubasis had a large footprint and more things to go wrong.

  • @AudioGus said:
    Cool, cool, this will be a fun Saturday exercise. Some notes on my past experience with...

    @Bon_Tempi said:

    2x drummachines: pattering - elastc drums - waldorf attack

    I would omit Attack as a realtime instrument option but would certainly use it as a sound generator for making sample kits for Patterning. Attack does not have Link or IAA sync.

    So Patterning and Elastic Drums it shall be.

    2x synths + 1 effect on each synth: model 15 - drc synth - troublemaker - shoom - korg ims 20 - syntronik - layr

    Alrighty...

    2x noisy apps: samplr - borderlands - idensity

    As much as I love Borderlands as a happy accident sketcher / sampler finder etc it has a habit of making things wonky system wide and can introduce instability. I use it more or less by itself for quick 'record it to audio' and get the f#*& out scenarios.

    Samplr and iDensity have both been good to me with other apps etc.

    1x fugue machine playing another app - for example: tines

    I don't have Tines but will pop in another comparable Klevgrand app for parity.

    1x Loopy HD recording on of the synths

    Hmmmm, I have not tried Loopy HD much but... will see... this is an interesting twist...

    1x an external keyboard playing one of the synth

    Will use my Nord or Circuit for midi duties, should be fine.

    all of it set up in audiobus - and running at the lowest possible buffer size - preferred at 128 or 256 ...

    Hmmmm, I will think about AB but if we want multitrack recording it may be best to host things elsewhere rather than do lots of audio piping...

    and getting recorded to cubasis at single tracks ...

    AB piping into Cubasis for recording? Hmmmm, I will think about this one... it really may be best to just use AUM for both hosting and recording as Cubasis does not have Link and the more we pipe audio around etc the more potential points of failure we introduce as well. Plus if two ipads are individually recording their own sound internally than Link is pretty much required. (The masochist in me wants to try two BM3s for this... maybe after.)

    Anyway I will try and give this a whirl on Saturday or Sunday... and consider Cubasis and IAA sync... but have a feeling two AUMs recording on two separate iPads will be the winning formula, then just dropping it all in Cubasis after the fact. Who knows maybe AUM and my 2017 ipad can handle this all by itself...? the latency on the midi keyboard etc likely requires the second iPad though and for me to use two Roland Duo Captures for audio/midi interfaces.

    (Hmmmm, strokes chin, approaches chalk board)

    Man, you need to stop with all of this nonsense right now, and get back to focusing on BM3! Get your head back in the game, son! :)

  • @CracklePot said:

    @AudioGus said:
    Cool, cool, this will be a fun Saturday exercise. Some notes on my past experience with...

    @Bon_Tempi said:

    2x drummachines: pattering - elastc drums - waldorf attack

    I would omit Attack as a realtime instrument option but would certainly use it as a sound generator for making sample kits for Patterning. Attack does not have Link or IAA sync.

    So Patterning and Elastic Drums it shall be.

    2x synths + 1 effect on each synth: model 15 - drc synth - troublemaker - shoom - korg ims 20 - syntronik - layr

    Alrighty...

    2x noisy apps: samplr - borderlands - idensity

    As much as I love Borderlands as a happy accident sketcher / sampler finder etc it has a habit of making things wonky system wide and can introduce instability. I use it more or less by itself for quick 'record it to audio' and get the f#*& out scenarios.

    Samplr and iDensity have both been good to me with other apps etc.

    1x fugue machine playing another app - for example: tines

    I don't have Tines but will pop in another comparable Klevgrand app for parity.

    1x Loopy HD recording on of the synths

    Hmmmm, I have not tried Loopy HD much but... will see... this is an interesting twist...

    1x an external keyboard playing one of the synth

    Will use my Nord or Circuit for midi duties, should be fine.

    all of it set up in audiobus - and running at the lowest possible buffer size - preferred at 128 or 256 ...

    Hmmmm, I will think about AB but if we want multitrack recording it may be best to host things elsewhere rather than do lots of audio piping...

    and getting recorded to cubasis at single tracks ...

    AB piping into Cubasis for recording? Hmmmm, I will think about this one... it really may be best to just use AUM for both hosting and recording as Cubasis does not have Link and the more we pipe audio around etc the more potential points of failure we introduce as well. Plus if two ipads are individually recording their own sound internally than Link is pretty much required. (The masochist in me wants to try two BM3s for this... maybe after.)

    Anyway I will try and give this a whirl on Saturday or Sunday... and consider Cubasis and IAA sync... but have a feeling two AUMs recording on two separate iPads will be the winning formula, then just dropping it all in Cubasis after the fact. Who knows maybe AUM and my 2017 ipad can handle this all by itself...? the latency on the midi keyboard etc likely requires the second iPad though and for me to use two Roland Duo Captures for audio/midi interfaces.

    (Hmmmm, strokes chin, approaches chalk board)

    Man, you need to stop with all of this nonsense right now, and get back to focusing on BM3! Get your head back in the game, son! :)

    haha, you are right! But my heart is in this experiment as I initially got into iPads with the intention of recording long multitrack jams and editing them after in a DAW. Just curious to see how this approach holds up in this day and age. Not like I need to actually make anything that sounds good ;) so that makes it easier.

  • @Bon_Tempi said:

    @AudioGus said:
    I do have the 2017 9.7 but have only used the 10.5 Pro for painting in Procreate, not for music.

    As for just the 2017 I am very happy with it and can run many apps. If you have a specific group of apps you are curious about i could do a quick stress test for you.

    oh - wow - that would be great if you could do so - thanks for this chance ...

    of course I dont know which apps and or hardware you have at home - but maybe it makes sense if I just write down what I have in mind and which apps I would like to use - as examples - and then you can decide along your options in what way and how you can realize this stress test ...

    and yes - a set up I would be curious about would be the following:

    2x drummachines: pattering - elastc drums - waldorf attack

    2x synths + 1 effect on each synth: model 15 - drc synth - troublemaker - shoom - korg ims 20 - syntronik - layr

    2x noisy apps: samplr - borderlands - idensity

    1x fugue machine playing another app - for example: tines

    1x Loopy HD recording on of the synths

    1x an external keyboard playing one of the synth

    all of it set up in audiobus - and running at the lowest possible buffer size - preferred at 128 or 256 ...

    and getting recorded to cubasis at single tracks ...


    am very curious what you will be abled to report afterwards ,,, and if you will encounter any limits/glitches there already ...

    thanks again ...

    I am sure it has been recommended many times already, but consider adding AUM to your setup. You can record everything as individual tracks or sub-mixes or main mix, all at the same time right into AudioShare. It has auto loop recording ability, and built in audio file playback that syncs and is loopable. This would eliminate Cubasis if you are just trying to use it to record, thus saving you some well-needed resources.

  • @AudioGus said:

    @CracklePot said:

    @AudioGus said:
    Cool, cool, this will be a fun Saturday exercise. Some notes on my past experience with...

    @Bon_Tempi said:

    2x drummachines: pattering - elastc drums - waldorf attack

    I would omit Attack as a realtime instrument option but would certainly use it as a sound generator for making sample kits for Patterning. Attack does not have Link or IAA sync.

    So Patterning and Elastic Drums it shall be.

    2x synths + 1 effect on each synth: model 15 - drc synth - troublemaker - shoom - korg ims 20 - syntronik - layr

    Alrighty...

    2x noisy apps: samplr - borderlands - idensity

    As much as I love Borderlands as a happy accident sketcher / sampler finder etc it has a habit of making things wonky system wide and can introduce instability. I use it more or less by itself for quick 'record it to audio' and get the f#*& out scenarios.

    Samplr and iDensity have both been good to me with other apps etc.

    1x fugue machine playing another app - for example: tines

    I don't have Tines but will pop in another comparable Klevgrand app for parity.

    1x Loopy HD recording on of the synths

    Hmmmm, I have not tried Loopy HD much but... will see... this is an interesting twist...

    1x an external keyboard playing one of the synth

    Will use my Nord or Circuit for midi duties, should be fine.

    all of it set up in audiobus - and running at the lowest possible buffer size - preferred at 128 or 256 ...

    Hmmmm, I will think about AB but if we want multitrack recording it may be best to host things elsewhere rather than do lots of audio piping...

    and getting recorded to cubasis at single tracks ...

    AB piping into Cubasis for recording? Hmmmm, I will think about this one... it really may be best to just use AUM for both hosting and recording as Cubasis does not have Link and the more we pipe audio around etc the more potential points of failure we introduce as well. Plus if two ipads are individually recording their own sound internally than Link is pretty much required. (The masochist in me wants to try two BM3s for this... maybe after.)

    Anyway I will try and give this a whirl on Saturday or Sunday... and consider Cubasis and IAA sync... but have a feeling two AUMs recording on two separate iPads will be the winning formula, then just dropping it all in Cubasis after the fact. Who knows maybe AUM and my 2017 ipad can handle this all by itself...? the latency on the midi keyboard etc likely requires the second iPad though and for me to use two Roland Duo Captures for audio/midi interfaces.

    (Hmmmm, strokes chin, approaches chalk board)

    Man, you need to stop with all of this nonsense right now, and get back to focusing on BM3! Get your head back in the game, son! :)

    haha, you are right! But my heart is in this experiment as I initially got into iPads with the intention of recording long multitrack jams and editing them after in a DAW. Just curious to see how this approach holds up in this day and age. Not like I need to actually make anything that sounds good ;) so that makes it easier.

    Ha ha. Yeah it does sound like a fun exercise. Probably a lot more doable with current iPad hardware, too. Have you tried doing this type of session in BM3 ever?

  • @AudioGus said:

    @CracklePot said:

    @AudioGus said:
    Cool, cool, this will be a fun Saturday exercise. Some notes on my past experience with...

    @Bon_Tempi said:

    2x drummachines: pattering - elastc drums - waldorf attack

    I would omit Attack as a realtime instrument option but would certainly use it as a sound generator for making sample kits for Patterning. Attack does not have Link or IAA sync.

    So Patterning and Elastic Drums it shall be.

    2x synths + 1 effect on each synth: model 15 - drc synth - troublemaker - shoom - korg ims 20 - syntronik - layr

    Alrighty...

    2x noisy apps: samplr - borderlands - idensity

    As much as I love Borderlands as a happy accident sketcher / sampler finder etc it has a habit of making things wonky system wide and can introduce instability. I use it more or less by itself for quick 'record it to audio' and get the f#*& out scenarios.

    Samplr and iDensity have both been good to me with other apps etc.

    1x fugue machine playing another app - for example: tines

    I don't have Tines but will pop in another comparable Klevgrand app for parity.

    1x Loopy HD recording on of the synths

    Hmmmm, I have not tried Loopy HD much but... will see... this is an interesting twist...

    1x an external keyboard playing one of the synth

    Will use my Nord or Circuit for midi duties, should be fine.

    all of it set up in audiobus - and running at the lowest possible buffer size - preferred at 128 or 256 ...

    Hmmmm, I will think about AB but if we want multitrack recording it may be best to host things elsewhere rather than do lots of audio piping...

    and getting recorded to cubasis at single tracks ...

    AB piping into Cubasis for recording? Hmmmm, I will think about this one... it really may be best to just use AUM for both hosting and recording as Cubasis does not have Link and the more we pipe audio around etc the more potential points of failure we introduce as well. Plus if two ipads are individually recording their own sound internally than Link is pretty much required. (The masochist in me wants to try two BM3s for this... maybe after.)

    Anyway I will try and give this a whirl on Saturday or Sunday... and consider Cubasis and IAA sync... but have a feeling two AUMs recording on two separate iPads will be the winning formula, then just dropping it all in Cubasis after the fact. Who knows maybe AUM and my 2017 ipad can handle this all by itself...? the latency on the midi keyboard etc likely requires the second iPad though and for me to use two Roland Duo Captures for audio/midi interfaces.

    (Hmmmm, strokes chin, approaches chalk board)

    Man, you need to stop with all of this nonsense right now, and get back to focusing on BM3! Get your head back in the game, son! :)

    haha, you are right! But my heart is in this experiment as I initially got into iPads with the intention of recording long multitrack jams and editing them after in a DAW. Just curious to see how this approach holds up in this day and age. Not like I need to actually make anything that sounds good ;) so that makes it easier.

    I'd be quite interested in finding out a practical way of using 2 iPads and how they can be tempo synced. Link is great but it only bloody works via network.

  • @Bon_Tempi said:

    @supadom said:
    Latency is the time between your hitting of a key/pad and the sound playing. It is particularly noticeable while playing quick notes which often (but not only) happens when playing percussive sounds (drums). When latency is too high you might encounter issues with sequencers recording notes in wrong places, even more so when quantisation is active notes might be shifted in the next available measure. When recording this might result in audio recording with a delay. Both things can be adjusted afterwards but when you're playing live it isn't always desirable. Even when just recording at home it can become tedious to have to adjust all the notes and it is better to work with lowest latency possible. 256 frames is probably the highest I'm comfortable with.

    Other than the lower the latency the more software instrument feels like real instrument as it responds immediately as a real instrument would.

    ok - thanks - got that now - but that means a buffer size of 256 would still be accetable for live recording? but 128 might be a nicer thing to have - right?

    @supadom said:
    @Bon_Tempi exactly that. At the moment software seems to be the bottleneck as on paper pro 10.5 is more than twice as powerful as air 2 but in real life it probably translates to no more than 25%. This is a massive estimate though and in no way a scientific statement, just what it felt like.

    wow, interesting - but if this is the fact - (and I truly haven´t expected this gap between paper specs and real world performance to be such a big/huge one) - but then I really can´t see a reason why I should be going for the 10,5 pro here - cause combining either 2x Ipad Air2 or 2x Ipad 2017 9,7 - or maybe best might be a mix of both models - for example: 1x Ipad 2017 9,7 128 GB + 1x Air 2 64 GB migth give me much more performance power and stability ...

    but if I would go this way - I ought to find a way to keep both ipads in sync, right?

    best way to do so is Ableton Link? are there any alternatives?
    and what can I do if I want to sync an app which is not enabled for Ableton Link yet? cause as I understood it - each single app has to be abled to connect to Link right?

    2 x Ipad air 2 = double the speed, this I'm absolutely sure of ;)

  • @supadom said:

    @AudioGus said:

    @CracklePot said:

    @AudioGus said:
    Cool, cool, this will be a fun Saturday exercise. Some notes on my past experience with...

    @Bon_Tempi said:

    2x drummachines: pattering - elastc drums - waldorf attack

    I would omit Attack as a realtime instrument option but would certainly use it as a sound generator for making sample kits for Patterning. Attack does not have Link or IAA sync.

    So Patterning and Elastic Drums it shall be.

    2x synths + 1 effect on each synth: model 15 - drc synth - troublemaker - shoom - korg ims 20 - syntronik - layr

    Alrighty...

    2x noisy apps: samplr - borderlands - idensity

    As much as I love Borderlands as a happy accident sketcher / sampler finder etc it has a habit of making things wonky system wide and can introduce instability. I use it more or less by itself for quick 'record it to audio' and get the f#*& out scenarios.

    Samplr and iDensity have both been good to me with other apps etc.

    1x fugue machine playing another app - for example: tines

    I don't have Tines but will pop in another comparable Klevgrand app for parity.

    1x Loopy HD recording on of the synths

    Hmmmm, I have not tried Loopy HD much but... will see... this is an interesting twist...

    1x an external keyboard playing one of the synth

    Will use my Nord or Circuit for midi duties, should be fine.

    all of it set up in audiobus - and running at the lowest possible buffer size - preferred at 128 or 256 ...

    Hmmmm, I will think about AB but if we want multitrack recording it may be best to host things elsewhere rather than do lots of audio piping...

    and getting recorded to cubasis at single tracks ...

    AB piping into Cubasis for recording? Hmmmm, I will think about this one... it really may be best to just use AUM for both hosting and recording as Cubasis does not have Link and the more we pipe audio around etc the more potential points of failure we introduce as well. Plus if two ipads are individually recording their own sound internally than Link is pretty much required. (The masochist in me wants to try two BM3s for this... maybe after.)

    Anyway I will try and give this a whirl on Saturday or Sunday... and consider Cubasis and IAA sync... but have a feeling two AUMs recording on two separate iPads will be the winning formula, then just dropping it all in Cubasis after the fact. Who knows maybe AUM and my 2017 ipad can handle this all by itself...? the latency on the midi keyboard etc likely requires the second iPad though and for me to use two Roland Duo Captures for audio/midi interfaces.

    (Hmmmm, strokes chin, approaches chalk board)

    Man, you need to stop with all of this nonsense right now, and get back to focusing on BM3! Get your head back in the game, son! :)

    haha, you are right! But my heart is in this experiment as I initially got into iPads with the intention of recording long multitrack jams and editing them after in a DAW. Just curious to see how this approach holds up in this day and age. Not like I need to actually make anything that sounds good ;) so that makes it easier.

    I'd be quite interested in finding out a practical way of using 2 iPads and how they can be tempo synced. Link is great but it only bloody works via network.

    I seem to recall (drunk/dream/both?) that I once created a wifi hotspot on my old phone and it worked for the two ipads..

  • edited February 2018

    @CracklePot said:

    @AudioGus said:

    @CracklePot said:

    @AudioGus said:
    Cool, cool, this will be a fun Saturday exercise. Some notes on my past experience with...

    @Bon_Tempi said:

    2x drummachines: pattering - elastc drums - waldorf attack

    I would omit Attack as a realtime instrument option but would certainly use it as a sound generator for making sample kits for Patterning. Attack does not have Link or IAA sync.

    So Patterning and Elastic Drums it shall be.

    2x synths + 1 effect on each synth: model 15 - drc synth - troublemaker - shoom - korg ims 20 - syntronik - layr

    Alrighty...

    2x noisy apps: samplr - borderlands - idensity

    As much as I love Borderlands as a happy accident sketcher / sampler finder etc it has a habit of making things wonky system wide and can introduce instability. I use it more or less by itself for quick 'record it to audio' and get the f#*& out scenarios.

    Samplr and iDensity have both been good to me with other apps etc.

    1x fugue machine playing another app - for example: tines

    I don't have Tines but will pop in another comparable Klevgrand app for parity.

    1x Loopy HD recording on of the synths

    Hmmmm, I have not tried Loopy HD much but... will see... this is an interesting twist...

    1x an external keyboard playing one of the synth

    Will use my Nord or Circuit for midi duties, should be fine.

    all of it set up in audiobus - and running at the lowest possible buffer size - preferred at 128 or 256 ...

    Hmmmm, I will think about AB but if we want multitrack recording it may be best to host things elsewhere rather than do lots of audio piping...

    and getting recorded to cubasis at single tracks ...

    AB piping into Cubasis for recording? Hmmmm, I will think about this one... it really may be best to just use AUM for both hosting and recording as Cubasis does not have Link and the more we pipe audio around etc the more potential points of failure we introduce as well. Plus if two ipads are individually recording their own sound internally than Link is pretty much required. (The masochist in me wants to try two BM3s for this... maybe after.)

    Anyway I will try and give this a whirl on Saturday or Sunday... and consider Cubasis and IAA sync... but have a feeling two AUMs recording on two separate iPads will be the winning formula, then just dropping it all in Cubasis after the fact. Who knows maybe AUM and my 2017 ipad can handle this all by itself...? the latency on the midi keyboard etc likely requires the second iPad though and for me to use two Roland Duo Captures for audio/midi interfaces.

    (Hmmmm, strokes chin, approaches chalk board)

    Man, you need to stop with all of this nonsense right now, and get back to focusing on BM3! Get your head back in the game, son! :)

    haha, you are right! But my heart is in this experiment as I initially got into iPads with the intention of recording long multitrack jams and editing them after in a DAW. Just curious to see how this approach holds up in this day and age. Not like I need to actually make anything that sounds good ;) so that makes it easier.

    Ha ha. Yeah it does sound like a fun exercise. Probably a lot more doable with current iPad hardware, too. Have you tried doing this type of session in BM3 ever?

    I have only ever done bits and pieces of it in BM3 as I tend to commit to audio quickly, which is the charm/value of BM3. I do think my 2017 ipad5 doing the heavy lifting with most of the sequencing and then my Air1 doing the low latency synth playing would be the ticket. Two Air2s or two 2017 ipad5s would be a pretty potent duo I am sure.

    In all I have an Air1, 2017 ipad and a mini2. If I have to crack em all out so be it but I like the idea of two.

  • This guy chose to use 8x ipad 3's! One app per pad. I thought it was limber thinking.

    https://forum.audiob.us/discussion/24357/the-beast-my-rig-possibly-of-interest-to-you-guys#latest

  • @supadom said:

    @AudioGus said:

    @CracklePot said:

    @AudioGus said:
    Cool, cool, this will be a fun Saturday exercise. Some notes on my past experience with...

    @Bon_Tempi said:

    2x drummachines: pattering - elastc drums - waldorf attack

    I would omit Attack as a realtime instrument option but would certainly use it as a sound generator for making sample kits for Patterning. Attack does not have Link or IAA sync.

    So Patterning and Elastic Drums it shall be.

    2x synths + 1 effect on each synth: model 15 - drc synth - troublemaker - shoom - korg ims 20 - syntronik - layr

    Alrighty...

    2x noisy apps: samplr - borderlands - idensity

    As much as I love Borderlands as a happy accident sketcher / sampler finder etc it has a habit of making things wonky system wide and can introduce instability. I use it more or less by itself for quick 'record it to audio' and get the f#*& out scenarios.

    Samplr and iDensity have both been good to me with other apps etc.

    1x fugue machine playing another app - for example: tines

    I don't have Tines but will pop in another comparable Klevgrand app for parity.

    1x Loopy HD recording on of the synths

    Hmmmm, I have not tried Loopy HD much but... will see... this is an interesting twist...

    1x an external keyboard playing one of the synth

    Will use my Nord or Circuit for midi duties, should be fine.

    all of it set up in audiobus - and running at the lowest possible buffer size - preferred at 128 or 256 ...

    Hmmmm, I will think about AB but if we want multitrack recording it may be best to host things elsewhere rather than do lots of audio piping...

    and getting recorded to cubasis at single tracks ...

    AB piping into Cubasis for recording? Hmmmm, I will think about this one... it really may be best to just use AUM for both hosting and recording as Cubasis does not have Link and the more we pipe audio around etc the more potential points of failure we introduce as well. Plus if two ipads are individually recording their own sound internally than Link is pretty much required. (The masochist in me wants to try two BM3s for this... maybe after.)

    Anyway I will try and give this a whirl on Saturday or Sunday... and consider Cubasis and IAA sync... but have a feeling two AUMs recording on two separate iPads will be the winning formula, then just dropping it all in Cubasis after the fact. Who knows maybe AUM and my 2017 ipad can handle this all by itself...? the latency on the midi keyboard etc likely requires the second iPad though and for me to use two Roland Duo Captures for audio/midi interfaces.

    (Hmmmm, strokes chin, approaches chalk board)

    Man, you need to stop with all of this nonsense right now, and get back to focusing on BM3! Get your head back in the game, son! :)

    haha, you are right! But my heart is in this experiment as I initially got into iPads with the intention of recording long multitrack jams and editing them after in a DAW. Just curious to see how this approach holds up in this day and age. Not like I need to actually make anything that sounds good ;) so that makes it easier.

    I'd be quite interested in finding out a practical way of using 2 iPads and how they can be tempo synced. Link is great but it only bloody works via network.

    I just made a ‘personal hotspot’ on my iPhone4S and I could then connect my two iPads to it and run Link. It still required that cellular data be on the phone but it was neat to do it on the train.

  • @AudioGus said:

    @supadom said:

    @AudioGus said:

    @CracklePot said:

    @AudioGus said:
    Cool, cool, this will be a fun Saturday exercise. Some notes on my past experience with...

    @Bon_Tempi said:

    2x drummachines: pattering - elastc drums - waldorf attack

    I would omit Attack as a realtime instrument option but would certainly use it as a sound generator for making sample kits for Patterning. Attack does not have Link or IAA sync.

    So Patterning and Elastic Drums it shall be.

    2x synths + 1 effect on each synth: model 15 - drc synth - troublemaker - shoom - korg ims 20 - syntronik - layr

    Alrighty...

    2x noisy apps: samplr - borderlands - idensity

    As much as I love Borderlands as a happy accident sketcher / sampler finder etc it has a habit of making things wonky system wide and can introduce instability. I use it more or less by itself for quick 'record it to audio' and get the f#*& out scenarios.

    Samplr and iDensity have both been good to me with other apps etc.

    1x fugue machine playing another app - for example: tines

    I don't have Tines but will pop in another comparable Klevgrand app for parity.

    1x Loopy HD recording on of the synths

    Hmmmm, I have not tried Loopy HD much but... will see... this is an interesting twist...

    1x an external keyboard playing one of the synth

    Will use my Nord or Circuit for midi duties, should be fine.

    all of it set up in audiobus - and running at the lowest possible buffer size - preferred at 128 or 256 ...

    Hmmmm, I will think about AB but if we want multitrack recording it may be best to host things elsewhere rather than do lots of audio piping...

    and getting recorded to cubasis at single tracks ...

    AB piping into Cubasis for recording? Hmmmm, I will think about this one... it really may be best to just use AUM for both hosting and recording as Cubasis does not have Link and the more we pipe audio around etc the more potential points of failure we introduce as well. Plus if two ipads are individually recording their own sound internally than Link is pretty much required. (The masochist in me wants to try two BM3s for this... maybe after.)

    Anyway I will try and give this a whirl on Saturday or Sunday... and consider Cubasis and IAA sync... but have a feeling two AUMs recording on two separate iPads will be the winning formula, then just dropping it all in Cubasis after the fact. Who knows maybe AUM and my 2017 ipad can handle this all by itself...? the latency on the midi keyboard etc likely requires the second iPad though and for me to use two Roland Duo Captures for audio/midi interfaces.

    (Hmmmm, strokes chin, approaches chalk board)

    Man, you need to stop with all of this nonsense right now, and get back to focusing on BM3! Get your head back in the game, son! :)

    haha, you are right! But my heart is in this experiment as I initially got into iPads with the intention of recording long multitrack jams and editing them after in a DAW. Just curious to see how this approach holds up in this day and age. Not like I need to actually make anything that sounds good ;) so that makes it easier.

    I'd be quite interested in finding out a practical way of using 2 iPads and how they can be tempo synced. Link is great but it only bloody works via network.

    I just made a ‘personal hotspot’ on my iPhone4S and I could then connect my two iPads to it and run Link. It still required that cellular data be on the phone but it was neat to do it on the train.

    Wow, I had no idea that would work! Awesome, thanks for sharing that one. B)

  • edited February 2018

    @Bon_Tempi

    Some good news!

    On my 2017 iPad using AUM (and Link) I could easily host and record...

    -Patterning (main output)
    -Elastic Drums
    -Model15 with EOS2 (driven by Fugue Machine)
    -Syndt (driven by Fugue Machine)
    -Shoom with FAC Chorus
    -Samplr
    -iDensity

    Buffer had to be at 512 with this much running (256 was major glitchy) and it would peak at around 80% CPU. I noticed no significant latency and the playback was super solid, no major glitches or sync errors while switching apps etc and it seemed fine for live that could also be recorded to separate tracks on the fly. Recorded for a good five minutes while jamming, no issues, aside from two very very minor audio hiccups that did not even record. Whoot!

    To get closer to the original goal I then set up Audiobus running in parallel to AUM for sending DRC into LoopyHD. I then sent LoopyHD to AUM. Doing this caused more audio glitches that were a bit worrisome (not good for live), but again did not show up at all in the track recordings.

    So really if you wanted to spread the love out across two 2017 iPads, both running AUM, I say it would clearly handle the load, and then some. One could be your 512 high buffer power lifter sequencer and the other the low buffer midi ninja.

  • edited February 2018

    Also, in regards to buffer size, I think the faster the device the less latency impact a larger buffer size would have... wouldn’t it? I mean isn’t the buffer memory size and not time? The latency in terms of time of a 512 buffer on an iPad 3 would be greater than on an Air2 with the same 512 buffer size given that an Air2 processes memory quicker... no?

  • Anyone else getting multiple emailed posts of this thread all week that I did not participate in? I get about a dozen or more emails about it per day now.

  • @ElektrikDiva said:
    Anyone else getting multiple emailed posts of this thread all week that I did not participate in? I get about a dozen or more emails about it per day now.

    Did you tap this star by mistake?

  • Yes I did Gus but what does taping that star do? Thank you very much for enlightening me, I never would have figured it out. Cheers, Eletrik Diva

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