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Let’s talk about midi sequencer timing

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Comments

  • PoppadocrockPoppadocrock

    I’m pretty sure some of the bud apps got the fix but can’t remember which ones did and didn’t? I’m guessing any newer bud apps have that implemented.

  • _ki_ki
    edited January 2023

    @martinjuenke said:
    Is someone tracking the progress of the missing devs?

    So - it‘s january 2023 and i again retested the MIDI AUv3 without sample offset. And checked the MIDI Auv3s i newly acquired. Here the updated version of the list:

    With sample-offset

    • Aphelian
    • ArpBud 2 (only for the note-on, the note-off don‘t use sample-offset)
    • Atom
    • Atom 2
    • Autony
    • Cality
    • cycle
    • DigiKeys
    • DigiStix
    • Drambo
    • DrumComputer
    • Euclidean
    • Fugue Maschine
    • Hammerhead (used as midi sequencer loaded in midi slot)
    • Helium
    • Ioniarics
    • LFOH! (only loads in audio FX slot even though it mainly generates midi CCs)
    • midiGATE (forwards sample-offset of its input, tested with X0X)
    • LK (only for the note-on, the note-off don‘t use sample-offset)
    • midiGATE (forwards sample-offset of its input, tested with X0X)
    • Mela 3 FX (part of Mela 3 synth)
    • MIDI Tape Recorder
    • MiRack
    • Mozaic
    • Octachron
    • OODA
    • Piano Motifs (used as midi sequencer loaded in midi slot)
    • PlayBeat 3
    • Poly 2 (only for the note-on, the note-off don‘t use sample-offset)
    • polybeat (only for the note-on, the note-off don‘t use sample-offset)
    • Polythemus (forwards sample-offset of its input, tested with X0X) )
    • Pure Acid (used as midi sequencer loaded in midi slot)
    • QuanitChord (forwards sample-offset of its input, tested with X0X) )
    • Riffer
    • Riffler (used as midi sequencer loaded in midi slot)
    • Rozeta Arp, Bassline, Cells, Collider, PArticles, Rhythm, XOX
    • Ruismaker Noir (used as midi sequencer loaded in midi slot, updated version)
    • ScaleBud (forwards sample-offset of its input, tested with X0X) )
    • Scaler 2
    • Senode
    • SnakeBud
    • StepPolyArp Unit
    • StreamByter
    • Thesys
    • Zoa

    .

    Without sample-offset
    Midi generators that don‘t set the sample-offset will produce sync-issues.

    • Axon 2 (used as midi sequencer loaded in midi slot)
    • BeatHawk (used as midi sequencer loaded in midi slot)
    • ChordBud 2
    • Chordjam
    • EG Pulse
    • KB-1 (for ARP feature)
    • MidiEcho (tested with X0X input)
    • MidiLFOs
    • Photon
    • Physicles Bouncy
    • Physicles Gravity
    • RhythmBud
    • StepBud

    .

    Could not check
    I don’t own the following midi AUv3, so i could not check them. The ones marked with (X) are from a dev that offers AUv3 midi apps with correct sample-offset, so its likely their new apps also support it.

    • DigiStix 2 from 4Pockets (X)
    • Euclid Goes to Party from Cem Olcay (X)
    • LoopBud from Cem Olcay (X)
    • MelodyBud from Cem Olcay (X)
    • midiDREAMs from Arthur Kerns, dev of midiLFOs
    • MidiSTEPs from Arthur Kerns, dev of midiLFOs
    • MIDI Strummer from 4Pockets (X)
    • mKER from Achilleas Sourias
    • mLFO from Achilleas Sourias
    • NuRack Midi from 4Pockets (X)
    • PatternBud from Cem Olcay (X)
    • PolyBud from Cem Olcay (X)
    • Progressions from 4Pockets (X)
    • ShiftBud from Cem Olcay (X)
    • Strokes from John Howes

    • Textquencer from Cem Olcay (X)

      .

    Changes in this version of the sample-offset list

    New in the list and with sample offset:
    o LFOH
    o Mela 3
    o OODA
    o Piano Motifs
    o Riffler
    o Scaler 2

    Fixed:
    o Arp Bud 2 v 1.7 - Note-ons apply sample offset, but note-offs don‘t.
    o MIDI Tape Recorder v 1.0.6 - fixed sample offset playback even for older recordings
    o PlayBeat 3 v3.1.7 - now sends all tracks to plugins midi output and applies sample offset

    New in the list and without sample offset:
    o MidiLFOs

  • NoncompliantBryantNoncompliantBryant

    This thread just makes me afraid to buy any more midi fx or sequencers. I don't imagine chordjam will ever get a fix. If we didn't have superheroes like @_ki, we'd likely all be shooting in the dark.

    Do issues like this pop up for our desktop musicians? I mean, to worry that a midi app isn't going to actually sync properly is a huge deal and I have always just assumed that duh, it would work since it's being sold to sync.

    Thanks so much for this incredible conversation and hard work! This is the stuff of ABF legend.

  • GavinskiGavinski

    Thank you So much for this great and time consuming work @_ki. Just a little heads-up though that the font colour you use for your annotations is extremely small and quite hard to read in terms of contrast (unless I turn my phone contrast way higher than normal) when reading the forum in dark mode. Perhaps consider a different colour than grey? Thanks again, now we need to get checking on the ones you're not sure about and get the devs with problem apps to fix them.

  • SamuSamu

    As far as I know Mela 3 is under public beta but I can’t seem to find the link at the moment!?

  • _ki_ki
    edited January 2023

    @Gavinski Thanks for the feedback. I’m just using the ‚small‘ font that the forum editor offers. It seems that these use the same dark grey color in Light and Dark theme of the forum making them hard to read. Maybe @Michael can change this.

    Your comment made me try around for alternatives - and I found out that the forum allows html tags for setting colors and font sizes.

    I‘ll fiddle around some more and then update the above post for better readability.

  • _ki_ki
    edited January 2023

    @Samu Thanks for the reminder (i just updated from IOS 14.8 to 16.2 this weekend, Mela 3 required 15). The Mela 3 testflight is found on the FAQ page, i just tested that it applies sample offset and updated the above list.

  • GavinskiGavinski
    edited January 2023

    Nice find! You're a star, brother!

    @_ki said:
    @Gavinski Thanks for the feedback. I’m just using the ‚small‘ font that the forum editor offers. It seems that these use the same dark grey color in Light and Dark theme of the forum making them hard to read. Maybe @Michael can change this.

    Your comment made me try around for alternatives - and I found out that the forum allows html tags for setting colors and font sizes.

    I‘ll fiddle around some more and then update the above post for better readability.

  • tjatja

    @_ki said:
    @Gavinski Thanks for the feedback. I’m just using the ‚small‘ font that the forum editor offers. It seems that these use the same dark grey color in Light and Dark theme of the forum making them hard to read. Maybe @Michael can change this.

    Your comment made me try around for alternatives - and I found out that the forum allows html tags for setting colors and font sizes.

    I‘ll fiddle around some more and then update the above post for better readability.

    Colors are always a bad idea 😅

    Otherwise, your usage of smaller fonts made sense to enhance the overview of your points above!

  • GavinskiGavinski

    Edit - sorry I noticed that Mela 3 midi fx is already in the 'works fine' list!

  • _ki_ki

    @tja The current list is now formatted using different sizes using the html „< font size=X > text < /font >“ tags and bold fonts instead of the forums < small > or markdown # title tags that additonally apply different colors which leads to bad readability in the Dark theme of the forum. Everything should be in the same default text color for both forum themes.

  • tjatja

    @_ki said:
    @tja The current list is now formatted using different sizes using the html „< font size=X > text < /font >“ tags and bold fonts instead of the forums < small > or markdown # title tags that additonally apply different colors which leads to bad readability in the Dark theme of the forum. Everything should be in the same default text color for both forum themes.

    Yes, I noticed and posted because of this 🤗
    Thanks

  • _ki_ki
    edited January 2023

    I am a bit sad that the list of pugins I can't test has grown so much over the years - but buying the n‘th LFO, step sequencer (even with a twist) or chord generator just for the sake of testing is a bit costly. I suspect that most of them apply sample offset, that‘s why i made the (X) a bit more prominent in the latest edit.

  • SamuSamu
    edited January 2023

    @_ki said:
    I am a bit sad that the list of pugins I can't test has grown so much over the years - but buying the n‘th LFO, step sequencer (even with a twist) or chord generator just for the sake of testing is a bit costly.

    True, same with me trying to stay supportive of all new apps that drop...
    ...I just can't do it. I will not say no to 'promo codes' from devs but I will not beg for them...
    (If a Promo code would drop as a PM here I'll at least consider spending some time learning the app and answering questions).

    The 'Insta Buys' and 'Overhyping' of new 'Desktop Ports' is just lunacy and flock/zombie behaviour at its best...
    ...It's not like a new toy will automatically make everyone better even though that is the 'image' that is sold with most new apps.
    (Buy this or that and sound like the Pro's etc. etc. etc.).

    If the flies are right we'd all be eating sh*t for lunch...

    Cheers!

  • GavinskiGavinski

    @_ki said:
    I am a bit sad that the list of pugins I can't test has grown so much over the years - but buying the n‘th LFO, step sequencer (even with a twist) or chord generator just for the sake of testing is a bit costly. I suspect that most of them apply sample offset, that‘s why i made the (X) a bit more prominent in the latest edit.

    I think if you contacted the devs whose apps you don't have and showed them the work you've done, the value of it, and the fact that its in their own interests for any issues to be identified and fixed, they'd quite happily give you free codes Ki

  • espiegel123espiegel123

    @GeertBevin said:

    @_ki said:
    @GeertBevin 👍🏼 Thanks a lot for fast investigation

    @_ki Thanks a lot for finding that regression, MIDI Tape Recorder 1.0.6 is now available in the App Store and fixes this issue in my testing. Can you please confirm?

    Is this broken again? In this thread, it is being reported as there being no offset

    https://forum.audiob.us/discussion/comment/1160995/#Comment_1160995

  • _ki_ki

    No. MTR is not broken, the input recorded (AUMs keyboard) does not produce sample offsets for the notes.

    .

    In fact none of the AUv3 keyboard apps i have produce sample offsets for the notes issued.

    I checked: AUM’s keyboard, Xequence key, Xequence Pads, KB-1, Velocity KB, Mononoke Pads, the keyboard and chord pads integrated in LK, Tonality ChordPads, ChordPadX.

    Since none reports a sample offset, i suspect there is a technical reason. And this thread was about ‚sequencer timing’, so i didn’t mention the keyboards.

  • _ki_ki

    Explanation about the zero sample offset in keyboard and choard apps from SevenSystems:

    Live events cannot be scheduled in the current buffer because that buffer has already been dispatched (is already on its way to the output / next processor / etc.). So they always have to be scheduled in the next buffer, that's why the timestamp will always be zero (as early as possible, because they're already too late anyway).

  • espiegel123espiegel123

    @_ki said:
    No. MTR is not broken, the input recorded (AUMs keyboard) does not produce sample offsets for the notes.

    .

    In fact none of the AUv3 keyboard apps i have produce sample offsets for the notes issued.

    I checked: AUM’s keyboard, Xequence key, Xequence Pads, KB-1, Velocity KB, Mononoke Pads, the keyboard and chord pads integrated in LK, Tonality ChordPads, ChordPadX.

    Since none reports a sample offset, i suspect there is a technical reason. And this thread was about ‚sequencer timing’, so i didn’t mention the keyboards.

    Thanks for the explanation.

  • GeertBevinGeertBevin

    @_ki said:
    No. MTR is not broken, the input recorded (AUMs keyboard) does not produce sample offsets for the notes.

    .

    In fact none of the AUv3 keyboard apps i have produce sample offsets for the notes issued.

    I checked: AUM’s keyboard, Xequence key, Xequence Pads, KB-1, Velocity KB, Mononoke Pads, the keyboard and chord pads integrated in LK, Tonality ChordPads, ChordPadX.

    Since none reports a sample offset, i suspect there is a technical reason. And this thread was about ‚sequencer timing’, so i didn’t mention the keyboards.

    Thanks! I was just about to start looking into what might be the problem, and now I got a few hours back in my day :smile:

  • cp3cp3

    I wrote a blog post about this exact subject: https://cp3.io/posts/sample-accurate-midi-timing/. Hopefully it's useful to any developers.

  • _ki_ki

    @cp3 Thanks a lot for your blog post - it‘s a good description of the problem and explains how to fix the midi timing problems including various code snippets.

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