Lively Dynamic Ride Cymbals?

I was listening to a Stevie Wonder tune (something from Innervisions) and on one of the tunes, his ride cymbal playing adds a lot of depth and movement -- playing around with various timbres by hitting the bell in different places with different amounts of force. Both the timbre and the accent (volume) vary.

It got me to realizing that I really want to use that on a track that I am working on. Most of the ride samples that I have are pretty simplistic - with just a few flavors. I was wondering if there is an app out there or sample set that has a variety of tones from the same ride cymbal that one could use for that sort of dynamic ride playing.

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Comments

  • edited April 24

    I don't have the iAP yet (but will get it :lol:), but for DrumJam there's a Cymbals pack. Maybe it has those dynamics. Will tell you if the results are positive

  • Drum Perfect Pro was designed to do exactly this. With the right sample set it could do this, but I don't know if it has one.

  • Good calls. I’ll check them out. I wonder which DrumPerfect IAP has the best variety of ride hits.

  • I'd try beathawk acoustic drums pack. Very good sounding, and there's some demos out there to check out.

  • @espiegel123 If you are creative with your sample use, you don't need lots of different sounds. A good rim hit and a good bell hit, maybe at a couple different velocities each is all you'd need. If it were me, I'd program the track in a drum machine, then I'd go back and "play" through the track with one of my controllers to get variety. Then I mix and match the two to taste, and I get very effective results.

    It's a bit of a slower process for sure, but not as bad as you'd think.

  • @espiegel123 said:
    ride cymbal playing adds a lot of depth and movement

    I'm a drummer and I wanted to hack a better interface to the drum set as a sampled instrument. I'm getting closer using some Apps I already own (and I need to give Drum Perfect Pro a fair hearing).

    I wanted to hack a MIDi controller that would let me use a drum stick on a pad and hear
    my patterns with accents.

    I have a thread in process on this effort and my progress. Here are a couple recordings of
    the experiments:

    NOTE: This was looped and I just tapped on the iPad case like Impaktor.

    I also wanted to have 2 samples that respond to accents like this typical Hi-Hat (Open/Closed
    "Pink Panther" pattern)

    The latency is acceptable and you can play pretty fast:

    I only use the iPad mic so Apps could be created to make this simple.

    FAC Envolver does the trick and my money's on @FredAntonCorvest to be first to market
    for a "MIDI Drum Trigger".

  • @McD - we should get together so I can show you my BopPad. Not suggesting you drop more $$ necessarily, but given what you're trying to accomplish in the other thread via FAC Envolver, I think you'd be interested to see the BopPad in action.

  • McDMcD
    edited April 24

    Trust me.... I looked at all the hardware options. I remembered a video of a guy using a drum practice and sticks to play Impaktor through the internal mic. I said I want that was off to the races using Apps I already owned.

    I covet the BobPad and the primo Roland stuff. I was close to settling for the KAT MIDI PAD. I'd love to test a BopPad.

  • @McD and @Daveypoo : thanks for the suggestions.

    @McD: how to trigger is not the issue for me. I am set on that front for this use-case.

    The thing that I am looking for is something that has the acoustic variation (besides velocity) I want for the trick. Playing dynamically at various distances from the center of the bell with varying amounts of bounce creates lively variations that have a special character that I love.

    I am wondering if there is something already set up that captures that; if push comes to shove, I can gather samples of various ride hits and put together an AudioLayer or DrumPerfect Pro kit to do it. But I was wondering if maybe such a thing already existed. Maybe one of their funk or jazz IAPs has enough variants for this. If this weren't going to be prominent in the track, the ride variants in the stock DPP kits of even SoftDrummer would be more than fine.

    @senhorlampada : I didn't know about that DrumJam cymbals. IAP. Great app. I'll have to check it out.

    @Daveypoo : to my ear, I need more variation than that for what I have in mind. In most cases, what you suggest would be plenty.

  • @espiegel123 said:
    @McD and @Daveypoo : thanks for the suggestions.

    @McD: how to trigger is not the issue for me. I am set on that front for this use-case.

    The thing that I am looking for is something that has the acoustic variation (besides velocity) I want for the trick. Playing dynamically at various distances from the center of the bell with varying amounts of bounce creates lively variations that have a special character that I love.

    I want to think through the use case because I think this would require complex sample set:

    1. Record layers of volumes for the various parts of the cymbal. There is likely a commercial
      product that does this for a drum kit with hundreds of wave files.

    2. Load those layers into a Sampler like AudioLayer assigning the "timbres" to MIDI assigned notes.

    Drive the AudioLayer instrument from a MIDI Sequencer or learn the MIDI assignments and drive with a MIDI Controller (PAD's or Keys). A BobPad for example could get mapped to 4 timbres.

    For you're use case I suspect you'll need to collect Samples and load them as a custom
    "instrument" in a Sampler.

    NOTE: I should check out DrumJam and Drum Perfect Pro. Currently, I like the Gladstone Acoustic Drum Machine in Gadget, BeatHawk's drums, BS-16i loaded with SF2 Drum Kits.

    Historically the General MIDI Drum Kit layer the groundwork for some defect standards for Dum Maps and the Drum Machines are probably closer to the layouts of the classic drum machines.

    Sending LumBeats SoftDrummer, Rock, Funk, Reggae drummers MIDI Out Streams into some of these DrumKits go a long way to sounding like you used a real drummer but playing the Ride with a lot of timbres would be a lot like making a Piano Soundfont. The more
    Sampler tricks you add the better the results (round-robins to get human variety in the strokes, etc).

    NOTE: I was going crazy trying to get my Rides to ring like real cymbals and not choke with every MIDI NOTE OFF until I realized I just needed to set the Release in the ADSR setting to a few seconds. Duh. I thought I would have to just record longer samples or tweak the
    MIDI NOTE Lengths by hand. maybe someone else will feel less frustrated making "real" drums from MIDI Samplers with this little detail.

  • @McD: Thanks for sharing those thoughts. To be clear, I know how I could do what I want if I need to assemble something myself. The question is whether there is something that won’t require going down that rabbit hole :)

    Do any of the individual apps you mentioned have a wide complement of ride hits and hit types? I have a lot of styles of ride hits between the various apps and libraries I have, but being from different libraries, they also don’t sound like the same cymbal.

    I could borrow a ride and play it but am curious about whether I am overlooking something—which might end up being a DPP IAP.

    Anyone have any other ideas?

  • @espiegel123 said:
    Do any of the individual apps you mentioned have a wide complement of ride hits and hit types? I have a lot of styles of ride hits between the various apps and libraries I have, but being from different libraries, they also don’t sound like the same cymbal.

    No. They typically have different rides rather than exploring the regions of just one cymbal.

    I could borrow a ride and play it but am curious about whether I am overlooking something—which might end up being a DPP IAP.

    I'm with you in hoping this thread discloses more options or sample offerings.

    Developers are listening and now they know they would get at least 2 buyers.

  • The DrumJam cymbal pack is pretty interesting. Some nice variation including a bounced stick on a sample. I need to use DrumJam more.

    Anyone have the DPP Jazz or Funk kits?

  • Hard to get what you're after without a real cymbal.

    Happy to record some if you like?

    20" & 21" Armand rides.

  • Here's a link to a free sample kit from a reputable VST manufacturer. Up to 9 velocity layers on some of the kit pieces.

    http://www.orangetreesamples.com/audio/jazzfunkdrumsdemo.mp3
    https://www.orangetreesamples.com/blog/free-jazz-funk-drum-sample-library

  • @BroCoast said:
    Hard to get what you're after without a real cymbal.

    Happy to record some if you like?

    20" & 21" Armand rides.

    It would be great to get 1 or 2 rides sampled in various points near the edge to the bell
    at a few volumes. Just a long wave file and clear silence between the notes to make it easier
    to know where to slice. There are tools for slicing I'd imagine based on the transients.

    I can also ask the SynthJacker developer if he'll add the feature to open a long wave and slice it up. His App does that now in internally. He would sell another 100 copies or so by exposing that as a workflow I think and then I'd import into AudioLayer.

    No hurry but it would be great. A have a bag of cymbals too that I stored at my daughters (a whole kit really). I was hoping one of her step-kids might take an interest but that didn't work out.

    I love the sound of a great ride and having 2 to use for contrast in a sample set with velocities and various timbres would be awesome. Mine's a K. Zildjian which the jazz bebop drummer's covet for it's rich complex overtones. It can generate a roar of overtones but still
    present a cutting stick pattern.

    Dry with a lot of stick sound (close mic'ed) would be my preference. Adding reverb is trivial and having it distinct for a whole kit is really the key. You might enforce the layering by using light sticks and adding heavier stick and height with each pass.

  • @onkey said:
    Here's a link to a free sample kit from a reputable VST manufacturer. Up to 9 velocity layers on some of the kit pieces.

    http://www.orangetreesamples.com/audio/jazzfunkdrumsdemo.mp3
    https://www.orangetreesamples.com/blog/free-jazz-funk-drum-sample-library

    Nice I'm going add that to Auria Pro's Lyra and see what it can do. It's great that Auria Pro has added MIDI FX so I can try my StreamByter toys with this one.

  • So this is something I've spent a bit of time looking into, as I really love ride cymbals.

    Firstly the Cymbals in DrumJam are no different to most sample sets in other drum apps, you only have samples for the tip and bell, no better than say DrumPerfect Pro or Lyra drum sets.

    The best option for a really varied ride would be a dedicated sample set, the one I bought was this one:

    https://www.voxengo.com/product/acudrums_rc20_sb_hh_r/

    For $11.95 you get samples across 4 parts of the cymbal (edge, tip, bell, and bell tip) with velocity layers and round-robins, so a lot of samples and a lot of variation. For maximum realism you can map them in DrumPerfect Pro, but even mapped to Slate in NS2 they are great (you don't have an option for round-robin samples in Slate though).

    Here's a sample of this cymbal mapped to Slate in NS2

    To get the nice velocity layers I use Xequence standalone as a controller, this allows for velocity to be mapped on the Y-axis of the pads:

    You need to use the MIDIFlow app to route the MIDI to NS2:

    But once NS2 properly supports MIDI AU then the Xequence Pads AUv3 plugin can be used directly in NS2 to do this.

    Aside from this, another potential option is to use Lyra, which comes with some pretty nice free kits. In Auria if you go to the Store and look in the Lyra Sounds section there is a free drum kit called ElektroMorph, if you download this there are two acoustic kits in the bundle, a jazz kit and another kit called Natural Kit - these both have some nice round-robin samples.

    If you combine the Natural Kit with DrumaGog you can get some really good ride cymbals, I'll see if I can make a sample later.

  • One trick EDM creators use is to modulate pitch and velocity (not tempo synced) on hats to get variation on very simple MIDI patterns...
    Perhaps controlled modulation of pitch, filter and resonance using velocity would get close ?

  • Another approach I like to use is to use DrumaGog in Auria, this allows for some really realistic ride cymbals with lots of natural variation. When you buy Drumagog you can email WaveMachineLabs for some additional gog files with lots of cymbals, the cymbal I use here comes from these free addons:

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/meng71knjcbjg08/Drumagog Ride Cymbal.wav?dl=0

    So you record any ride cymbal as either audio or MIDI and then replace it with Drumagog samples, then you can automate the articulations to vary which part of the cymbal is struck, the variations go way beyond just edge and bell, they are over different parts of the cymbal:

  • @richardyot : thanks so much for all that information. A lot to explore. I figured someone must have grappled with this. I haven’t explored Drumagog nearly enough. I really need to learn how to use it.

    Do you have any idea if the DrumPerfect Jazz Or Funk kits have more ride variety than their standard kits?

    @onkey : thanks for the link.

    @AndyPlankton : I played with pitch modulation but in this use-case where the ride is pretty prominent, there is n unnatural character to the pitch modulated ride that isn’t my cup of tea in this context. Would work nicely in a different context.

  • @espiegel123 said:
    Do you have any idea if the DrumPerfect Jazz Or Funk kits have more ride variety than their standard kits?

    Not in terms of where the ride cymbal is struck. The Jazz-Funk kit has some round robins but the cymbal strikes are all on the edge or the bell. The two options I described above will offer much more variety.

    If you already own Drumagog (and you have requested the extra cymbal packs from WML) then that's the most straightforward option, it's actually really easy to do.

  • @richardyot said:

    @espiegel123 said:
    Do you have any idea if the DrumPerfect Jazz Or Funk kits have more ride variety than their standard kits?

    Not in terms of where the ride cymbal is struck. The Jazz-Funk kit has some round robins but the cymbal strikes are all on the edge or the bell. The two options I described above will offer much more variety.

    If you already own Drumagog (and you have requested the extra cymbal packs from WML) then that's the most straightforward option, it's actually really easy to do.

    Is there a particular gog set or file that I should ask them for?

  • @espiegel123 said:

    @richardyot said:

    @espiegel123 said:
    Do you have any idea if the DrumPerfect Jazz Or Funk kits have more ride variety than their standard kits?

    Not in terms of where the ride cymbal is struck. The Jazz-Funk kit has some round robins but the cymbal strikes are all on the edge or the bell. The two options I described above will offer much more variety.

    If you already own Drumagog (and you have requested the extra cymbal packs from WML) then that's the most straightforward option, it's actually really easy to do.

    Is there a particular gog set or file that I should ask them for?

    They send two sets out, one with drum samples and another with Cymbals. The Purrrfect cymbals are the ones I used in that sample.

  • @richardyot said:

    @espiegel123 said:

    @richardyot said:

    @espiegel123 said:
    Do you have any idea if the DrumPerfect Jazz Or Funk kits have more ride variety than their standard kits?

    Not in terms of where the ride cymbal is struck. The Jazz-Funk kit has some round robins but the cymbal strikes are all on the edge or the bell. The two options I described above will offer much more variety.

    If you already own Drumagog (and you have requested the extra cymbal packs from WML) then that's the most straightforward option, it's actually really easy to do.

    Is there a particular gog set or file that I should ask them for?

    They send two sets out, one with drum samples and another with Cymbals. The Purrrfect cymbals are the ones I used in that sample.

    Cool. Thanks. Question re the @SevenSystems drum pads AU, does it have capabilities not in Xequence’s native drummpads (which I haven’t really used to date)?

  • @espiegel123 said:

    @richardyot said:

    @espiegel123 said:

    @richardyot said:

    @espiegel123 said:
    Do you have any idea if the DrumPerfect Jazz Or Funk kits have more ride variety than their standard kits?

    Not in terms of where the ride cymbal is struck. The Jazz-Funk kit has some round robins but the cymbal strikes are all on the edge or the bell. The two options I described above will offer much more variety.

    If you already own Drumagog (and you have requested the extra cymbal packs from WML) then that's the most straightforward option, it's actually really easy to do.

    Is there a particular gog set or file that I should ask them for?

    They send two sets out, one with drum samples and another with Cymbals. The Purrrfect cymbals are the ones I used in that sample.

    Cool. Thanks. Question re the @SevenSystems drum pads AU, does it have capabilities not in Xequence’s native drummpads (which I haven’t really used to date)?

    Only difference is that you can use it directly in the host, so it's more convenient since you don't have to switch apps while you're recording. Just need NS2 and Auria to support the AU properly, but that should happen soon in both cases :)

  • Also worth adding that I prefer using the Xequence drum pads to my external MPD226 controller, they're that good :)

  • edited April 25

    @BroCoast said:
    Hard to get what you're after without a real cymbal.

    Happy to record some if you like?

    20" & 21" Armand rides.

    Ya, I don't know of any in iOSville. If I had to do this, I'd have to make samples from a real one or, slightly easier, from BFD3 which has a couple hundred samples per articulation. For rides, they usually have 3 articulations, so approaching a thousand samples for a realistic ride.

    I'm sure you could get along with less, but I'm gonna guess a few hundred to fake it.

    I forget though if Audiolayer has round robin.

  • @Multicellular : yes, AudioLayer has round robin.

  • I'm so glad there are members that still like real drums even if they use them to replace real drummers and not get caught.

    I must put Drumagog on the list (another IAP in Auria Pro to covet and budget) and remember about the extra email step.

    I heard on @thesoundtestroom's video that you need the Desktop version ($99) to do some things. @richardyot - do you have the desktop plug-in too? Do you use it to build/edit kits?

    Can I drive Drumagog kits in Auria Pro from MIDI in AUM? or do I have to use my MIDI FX apps in Auria Pro. FAC Envolver is key: mic audio in and MIDI FX out (CC's and NOTES).

    I'm making a MIDI Drum Trigger with AUv3 apps so I can play these cymbals using a practice pad with sticks as my MIDI controller. To get the multiple regions I'd probably have to get a BopPad or KAT MIDI hardware unit.

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