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Can you recommend an EXS24 piano better than Salamander ??
Hi 
I tried and payed for all the usual suspects of Ipad piano Vst´s but they all sadly suck in various degrees. Sorry if this come across as arrogant to the developers - but they are miles from their VST OSX counterparts (like Keysacape or Synthogy) and not really pleasing to play or usable on a production scale..
Colossus = Weird resonance like a through a nose with a cold and unstable
Igrand = Toy
Korg/Ivory/Synthogy = Sound weird like it´s wrapped in plastic foil and with no nutrients
Ravencroft = Almost semi good - but still weird resonance that cannot be tweaked away
Cannot remember the rest - but the only balanced piano I have tried that did not sound weird or borderline bad in IOS is Salamander. Only problem it sounds a little like a Hardware piano from 10 years ago in terms of realism especially played slow.
Now with the Layer sampler that imports EXs24 there might be light at the end of a depressing tunnel.
Does anybody know of an EXS piano that is really good ?? Especially one that is not overly bright, but rather dark, intimate and filled with all the nutrients in sound that the current crop of IOS pianos lack ??
All the best
Morten
Comments
I'd be happy on a desert island with Spectrasonics as my only family of plugins. But having just looked at the 163Gb (and that's using smart compression) of space that Keyscape, Omnisphere and Trillian take up, I reckon we can probably give the iOS developers a break, ref the quality of their piano libraries.
But all humor aside, the two Synthology Ivory addons for Korg Module are pretty decent considering the reasonable memory footprint.
Check out the addons third-party add-ons section of Korg Module site (SoundCloud demos for all addons).
https://www.korg.com/us/products/software/korg_module/modules.php
Edit:
Apologies I completely ignored the EXS24 aspect of your original question. But I still think Korg Module may be a better approach as the library also features othe gems like the Scarbee EP and 'best of Triton'. All the demos on the Korg site are eq'd far too bright for my taste. Both the Synthology library's sound far better when they're a little more broody and contemplative!
Your other option is to scour ebay for Gigasample libraries (which can be nabbed for a song) and convert what you buy to EXS24. There are plenty of utilities out there up to the conversion task.
And BTW, did you check out Native Instruments new piano Noir (released yesterday). Now that's a piano library that ticks all my boxes (sadly desktop only).
https://www.native-instruments.com/en/products/komplete/keys/noire/
Piano sounds are about the most subjective matter I can imagine. Ask ten different people and you get nine different opinions and tonal preferences.
I'm using five different pianos myself, depending on what kind of sound I need in my song.
Agreed. What are the five that you're using?
You might want to consider the Alan Parsons Piano in SampleTank, it's the darkest piano I know of on iOS. It can be a bit heavy at times but played with a gentler touch than mine it might also sound better.
Here's a sample
Personally I find the Salamander too bright for my tastes, although in a full mix it can sound pretty good. Ravenscroft is my favourite by a long way.
SC Hammersmith, Keyscape C7, Galaxy Vintage D, IS Braunschweig Upright, 8Dio 1969.
Plus equalizing to taste.
@rs2000 Good list. Any faves on iOS
@richardyot Being a huge fan of Alan Parsons, I can see his endorsed SampleTank addon being right up my street. Maybe time to reinstall SampleTank.
Yes, my own creations in AudioLayer
I've heard good reviews about Ravenscroft 275 but I don't own it.
I have the UVI Ravenscroft on the desktop so ignored its release on iOS. I'm happy with processing (darkening) the Korg Module pianos when mobile but if I was tied to an iOS-only piano I think it would probably be the Ravenscroft as it's brilliant in its desktop variant.
But I purchased NI Noire yesterday on release and it's the best NI piano yet. Most definitely their most darkly expressive one.
With Noire, black coffee and dark chocolate spring to mind.
@jonmoore, @richardyot, @rs2000, don't you get it? The OP shuns iOS pianos. With respect for @mortenx, he is absolutely right about VSTs being superior. But even tho my experience is limited, I think it is a bit hyperbolic to say they are miles above our humble iOS emulations. I owned a gorgeous 1915 Steinway B for 30 years. Nothing touches it, but I enjoy my Kawai 11se more cause it is a spaceship to other musical galaxies. But I have heard this "VST good iOS bad" rant too often and I don't agree philosophically and psychologically. The music I make using RC275, Module American D and my 11se onboard Shigerus arejust fine, even great, thank you. And considering it is, of course, subjective, and depends on many sound reproduction variables, it is rather irrelevant to search for the holy grail when there are perfectly usable instruments on iOS. If you must have a higher standard @xmortenx, then forget about this iOS piano you seek. Simply do desktop. Problem solved!
The irony of this commonly held belief about VSTs vs iOS is that there are a further class of purists who think VSTs are total shit compared to acoustics, and, of course, they are right. I think of Breugel's Big Fish Eat Little Fish. Well, fuck, in they end they are all Fish and it only matters how you cook them. Even getting raw fish right is an art. Unless the OP is producing classical music I do think it is a kind of arrogant approach to iOS production as he himself suggests. I am never disappointed with the pianos I use because I continually find ways of making them sound better (different?). If you look at what a guy like Scott Van Zandt does with just Gadget and Cubasis, one would be hard pressed to say that he does not equal the results of at least 90% of desktop jockeys, and maybe even more, with the production of epic soundtrack masterpieces.
Search on, OP, you touched a sore spot with me, I am afraid. As a piano player of sixty years' experience I dislike posts that will lead newcomers to iOS conclusions that are not justified in any relevant context.
@LinearLineman I know that none of my listed pianos are on iOS but the first step to a great piano is some kind of reference for a potentially endless search.
Once you've found it, there are ways to port it to iOS, but it's a lot of work so I'd claim it's a good idea to choose the piano to be sampled wisely.
@LinearLineman Calm down good sir.
The reason that VST's outclass iOS for instruments like the piano is that they're able to utilise a far larger memory footprint. This means that more mic positions can be recorded, more velocity layers can be utilised, damper pedal noise samples included and all that kind good sampling practice goodness.
To be honest I'd missed that @xmortenx mentioned the Korg Ivory pianos in his post as I wasn't paying enough attention to the full content (just the headline). But I do find those Korg options to be reasonably expressive and dark once I've processed them to my liking. They're especially good considering their memory footprint.
Of course iOS has plenty of options for experienced piano players like yourself.
However, I get equally annoyed by platform tribalism. It's not about the desktop being better than iOS, or real instruments recorded in the best acoustic spaces being better than the largest of VST libraries. Different platforms offer different advantages. It's as simple as that. And there are huge advantages in using all of the available platforms together as part of your creative mix (if you have the budget to afford such setups).
Now that iPad Pro's go up to 1Tb storage, it won't be long before the larger sample libraries are converted for iOS. I'm not so sure how large the market will be, as £1700 is a lot of cheddar for a tablet.
@richardyot, your sample just proves my point. Though I have come to regard you as a really great musician and composer, I found that sample sucked for me . Now, I know you have very high standards, so it must be totally subjective. I am not criticizing your judgement in any way ( except maybe more than ten seconds would have helped!). I just mean the OP can find his heart's desire iOS piano, and then, some jerk like me is going to say it is plain lousy. It is like trying to find the perfect headphones or monitors to mix by. Just does not exist. I know I am being cantankerous, but I follow the dictum "Am I better than my Tools?" So far I, personally, ain't!
@rs2000, I eagerly await your sampled piano masterpiece! I will gratefully adopt it.... as long as it sounds good to me. Have you contacted @McD btw, re his understanding of the process?
I'm not yet sure which one to put the work in.
Native Instruments has just released a new sampled piano, the Yamaha CFX 9' owned by Nils Frahm. It's called "NOIRE".
There are sound demos online, please have a listen and tell me what you think.
Yes it sounds pretty heavy. That's partly because you can't really control the velocity curve in SampleTank so in this case it feels like I was hammering the bass keys when in fact I was playing relatively gently. But also not everyone likes a dark piano, so there is that to consider. And my piano playing is pretty basic to say the least
This video by German composer Nils Frahm is a great example of the passion and technical know-how that goes into creating a great piano library. I'm not saying that Noire is the best piano library I've heard, but it's definitely a colour I wanted in my palette.
@jonmoore, took a tranquilizer and feeling better now, thank you 😤😅 Seriously, though, it is a fun rant with real implications (as I said, philosophically and psychologically).
Curious as to why you think I am any different from any other musician on the forum when it comes to iOS pianos?
Granted, my teacher, Connie Crothers, and many first class pianists can take a broken down upright and make it sing. But IOS and VSTs are not like that, I think. On a junker acoustic a great player can almost intuitively avoid using the really bad notes, compensate for unequal key resistances, squeeze sonority from out of tune dissonance ( not me, however). But these are not the obstacles found on digital keyboards, as you usually bring one with you and know it's capabilities. Other than volume, iMO, there is very little one can finesse on a dp using iOS or VSTs. The sound can be finessed overall in production, but ooching out that sound that one can do on a great, good or bad acoustic is not available. Believe me I try!
I apologize if I am being too harsh with the OP. He is far from alone in his beliefs, but his litany of complaints against each iOS piano does not compute for me. If he is a true connesieur (?) of piano sound he will know that even a fine acoustic grand will have its strong and weak points. Mine sure did, including that one note where the string was closest to one of the iron support beams that make up the harp. Errrrr! How it rang. Zzzing! And other weaknesses as well, but still it was a tremendous instrument.
I won't go thru his list but on the Ravenscroft, (his semi good favorite) he hears a weird resonance. Where? What? Never heard it and my ears are quite good for a septuagenarian. There was an extensive piano poll and many threads, including RC275, done here by acute listeners. Crackles, yes. Pedal noises ( now resolved), yes. Weird resonances... no mention.
Like I say, it can be psychological. The brain is damn subtle. If you are inclined to hear something, there is a good chance you might hear it. I certainly do not think iOS is better than desktop for great sound quality. Quite the opposite in fact, which is why I chide @LFS to get the NI libraries into Cubasis. I just don't think a perceived deficiency as the OP expresses... (iOS pianos being) "not really pleasing to play or usable on a production level" Really? I don't think it is "tribalism" to enjoy playing the better iOS pianos or being satisfied with it in production when "processed to my liking" as you said. Anyway, it is not very important in the scheme of things, is it? You have stripped me of Moore's Law, my friend, at least leave me the RC275!😉😘
@jonmoore, thanks for the video. It is so great that there are dedicated people who want to accomplish such great musical dreams. We all benefit. The Noire sounds great ( I assume it is the sample and not the actual instrument playing in the background. Again, he talks a lot about the Neumann mics. It is the whole picture that matters, no? Not just the software. And even that piano had to be tweaked to satisfy the developer!
@rs2000, the Noire sounds great. Is it better than the Garritan Abbey Road or the Ravenscroft? Both great. Others as well. Choose the one you like best and get it to me fast! I am not getting any younger!!
I've listened to some of the tracks you've posted and was particularly impressed by the expression in your piano parts.
@LinearLineman By tribalism, I mean when people post comments like 'take that desktop' (one I read earlier today on this forum). I know you didn't say those exact words but the sentiment of the post felt the same to me (probably just the mood I was in when I read it, so don't think on it too much).
BTW I usually look forward to your lengthy, considered, probing posts. It's so refreshing to read stuff beyond the usual fanboy ramblings.
Just a reminder: the framing of the discussion as VST vs iOS is not really relevant to this use case. For pianos, it is all about the sample set. If someone gravitates to a particular sound/sample set and none of the usual iOS suspects has that sound, then they may need to roll their own. NI copy protects their samples so that you can't repurpose the samples. But maybe the VSTs you like have user accessible samples, in which case you could build an EXS. There is also some sort of tool on Windows for converting sampled instruments. Perhaps you could use it to convert a piano you like to EXS or sfz format.
This is why I recommended Gigasampler libraries. As they can be purchased cheaply (second hand) and converted by EXS24 into an EXS that AudioLayer can read.
https://decrypto.net/2014/03/27/how-to-convert-giga-sample-libraries-to-exs24-format/
I read the OP and was kinda hoping a conversation would follow discussing exs24 piano options, not a spiral into desktop vs iOS.
So to change the subject (get back on topic?):
Now that we have EXS24 as an option in AudioLayer, can we talk about any good piano libraries that might be available? Is Salamander available somewhere to download as exs24? I have it inside Auria, but I’m not really into DAW workflow.
Are there others that are good? Like the OP, I’m looking for exs24 so I can use it in AudioLayer.
Thanks, @jonmoore, I like to have a good time writing, but if no one else enjoyed it I would surely stop.
@Hmtx , I have absolutely no quarrel with desktop production or those who use it or a combo of iOS and desktop. That is not where I am coming from at all! I would love to have a Mac mini and a few great piano VSTs as well as the complete Contakt library. It is pure economics and the steeper learning curve that keeps me from it (for now). If the OP had refrained from the global statement that iOS pianos suck I would have read with interest and without comment about creating new sampled pianos. @rs2000 and I have discussed the subject and it would be great to have an even better piano. Bring it on! There are those who think iOS is the eventual top of the food chain, or more 21st century. I am not one of them.
But pulling down what are quite good iOS products in many people's minds (and that is where it all exists, after all) gives readers an incorrect impression of the quality available.
I am a frequenter of PianoWorld and, tho they are mostly nice folks, there is a total bias against iOS. I tried a couple of times to make the case for the validity of the platform but have given up (mostly). I think on an iOS forum I can defend the hard work of a lot of devs who produce incredible products that could never have existed just a few years ago (and that includes my core instrument, pianos). Honestly, I can see why you are tired of the same old discussion (as am I), but please remember, there are newbies constantly in the room ( I was exactly a year ago). Those are the users I am talking to (mostly). Rant completed. Request permission to land.
Search for these two Gigasampler pianos from the early '00s. If you own Logic you can load Gigasampler libraries directly and output an EXS that AudioLayer can use. They're well sampled and of a reasonable size by modern standards. Look for the disc version on ebay for peanuts. And for all I know, they may have been uploaded to a share site by now.
https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/pmi-grandioso-steinway-model-d
https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/pmi-grandioso-bosendorfer
Later versions of the same pianos were PMI Old Lady Mk II and The Emperor Mk II. Unfortunately, these later versions were only released as Kontakt libraries from what I remember.
Have you checked your preferred desktop piano to see if its samples can be extracted?
Most modern libraries are encrypted to stop piracy. That's why it's often better to look for the best libraries from 10-15 years ago to find things that can easily be converted, or worst-case scenario, where the wav's are accessible for a manual conversion.
And those libraries from 10-15 years ago are when piano libraries really upped their game, so they're pretty close to the best of what's available today.
Here we go again... the land of the blind describing the elephant using touch and sound. "It's a tree... a large snake... a land whale..."
TL;DR Give up now and buy UVI's Ravenscroft 275 or Korg Module's IAP Ivory Mobile American D.
For the record, there are 3 EXS24 Pianos available at @Lithalean's sample site
musical-artifacts.com
To make ESX24's you need a Mac with OS X and MainStage or Logic Pro which include the ESX Sampler tool. It can import SF2's and export ESX24 packaged by-products. So, looking at the pianos in SF2's for the right "tone" can offer a path to an ESX24 instance. Just find one and ask for help getting it converted and uploaded into musical-artifacts to grow this list.
I think starting with a bright piano and adding an EQ/Filtering FX (FilterStation 2 or ApeFilter for me) can be helpful to produce a tone you really like. Dark-to-bright and back again.
AudioLayer offers an EQ and I suggest turning on the Phase FX with just a small amount and the extra phased samples cancel the upper frequencies and make Salamander much darker for no extra cost or latency.
NOTE: People that have carnal knowledge of the piano add an extra level of judgement that involves the psycho-acoustic connection they expect from a keyboard-sound generator relationship. To re-create a piano experience you need low latency, sensitive velocity response and good recordings at various levels of attack. Extra details like sympathetic string response and pedal details help complete the illusion. @LinearLineman's keyboard simulates the physical mechanics of a high quality piano hammer mechanism to complete this pyscho-acoustic connection and turn touch into sound in a convincing manner.
Helpful info, thanks
@McD, you didn’t read the thread bro.