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Physical Modelling Synth?

Been playing with the “Sculpture” physical modelling synth in MainStage (the performance version of all those Logic Pro X instruments, on macOS). Got to thinking about an iOS version of some kind.
Of course, there have been similar threads on this forum, in the past. But it doesn’t sound like anyone has found a good alternative.

So let’s rephrase the question. My goal isn’t to create a realistic-sounding model of an acoustic instrument. It’s more about using physical processes to morph sounds in unexpected ways. Some of this can be achieved with existing synths (through filters and waveshaping). Plus, there’s probably some pretty cool Karplus-Strong “plucked string” instrument out there.

But how about an easy-to-use synth which produces complex results based on things like MIDI CC or MPE? With ROLI and Wizdom getting serious about MPE, one might think there’s room for this kind of subtle control of the “physical features” of sound. No?

If Apple were serious about making iOS devices into professional tools for musicians, they would come out with an iOS version of MainStage. Not holding my breath but WWDC is mere hours away… ;-)
(My guess is that, if Apple ever did something significant for iOS musicians, it wouldn’t be at WWDC. But one can still hope.)

At any rate, if anyone has built a compelling iOS synth which uses physical modelling in a thorough way, let me know how you use it.

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Comments

  • Sculpture is amazing, and Ableton's Collision is no slouch either. An ios equivalent would be awesome.

  • Zed Synth, LaPlace, and Anckorage Spring Sound are 3 physical modeling synths available on iOS. All are worth having and sound wonderful.

  • Laplace and mersenne are physically modelled I think.

  • @Littlewoodg said:
    Zed Synth, LaPlace, and Anckorage Spring Sound are 3 physical modeling synths available on iOS. All are worth having and sound wonderful.

    Thank you my friend. In my ignorant opacity I had always thought that Spring was an effect. How wrong you have taught me I was. What a nice thing it is.

  • edited June 2017

    @JohnnyGoodyear said:

    @Littlewoodg said:
    Zed Synth, LaPlace, and Anckorage Spring Sound are 3 physical modeling synths available on iOS. All are worth having and sound wonderful.

    Thank you my friend. In my ignorant opacity I had always thought that Spring was an effect. How wrong you have taught me I was. What a nice thing it is.

    Ah, no. It uses a model of an assemblage of springs, interconnected, such that each spring can have a ridiculous amount of physical parameters that springs are wont to have, and the influence of the driver through a spring into another spring etc gives rise to some quite complex resonance results. It really is an interesting model, the graphics explain the connection paradigms, and the parameters are plentiful and bebaffling. The essential thing with spring modelling is to do not only with impulse transmission, but also damping and resistance through the idea of 'stickiness' and 'slipperiness'. It is a very interesting playground, and I should sit and learn a bit more about it all - much of it isn't familiar with me.


    http://www.anckorage.com/spring-sound/

  • Sorry but there is really nothing on earth like Sculpture (also not in desktop land). The timbre morphs it can make are outstanding in the synth world.
    I love it. But it's really hard to program.
    It's such a deep beast.
    But an iOS version is overdue.
    Collision is great too (and a few others) but there is NOTHING like Sculpture.
    The GUI is old but the engine is a genius piece of work.

  • Zed Synth and Springsound are both great but really need a visual makeover.

  • edited June 2017

    @JohnnyGoodyear said:

    @Littlewoodg said:
    Zed Synth, LaPlace, and Anckorage Spring Sound are 3 physical modeling synths available on iOS. All are worth having and sound wonderful.

    Thank you my friend. In my ignorant opacity I had always thought that Spring was an effect. How wrong you have taught me I was. What a nice thing it is.

    Any time, my pleasure. Its a lovely and rare synth bird and deserves a mention. Also: you were right to think it is an effect, it does that too, via audio in as "SpringSound" in AB2 and 3.

    @Cib Sculpture does look amazing, that (and the new Alchemy) seem reason enough to pick up on Mainstage or Logic. If I used mac...
    Closest I know of (for PC) is AAS's stuff, Tassman, Chromophone 2 etc

  • If I remember correctly, both Zmors Modular and Tera synths have modules for physical modelling

  • edited June 2017

    @Littlewoodg said:

    @JohnnyGoodyear said:

    @Littlewoodg said:
    Zed Synth, LaPlace, and Anckorage Spring Sound are 3 physical modeling synths available on iOS. All are worth having and sound wonderful.

    Thank you my friend. In my ignorant opacity I had always thought that Spring was an effect. How wrong you have taught me I was. What a nice thing it is.

    Any time, my pleasure. Its a lovely and rare synth bird and deserves a mention. Also: you were right to think it is an effect, it does that too, via audio in as "SpringSound" in AB2 and 3.

    @Cib Sculpture does look amazing, that (and the new Alchemy) seem reason enough to pick up on Mainstage or Logic. If I used mac...
    Closest I know of (for PC) is AAS's stuff, Tassman, Chromophone 2 etc

    I have nearly all physical modeling tools since i´m a sucker for this but Sculpture is the most awesome for me.
    While f.e. Chromaphone and Pianoteq are better for specific sounds the general engine in Sculpture is so great for outstanding organic but still from out of this world textures, instruments, morphs, whatever.
    With Sculpture i can create the most awesome arps which morphs trough materials.
    It is also a great source for sampling it for other synths since you have not to use samples and it can have such a wide range of timbre. It can sound dirty as hell or clear like a diamont. Put a great reverb after it and you are in heaven.
    As you hear i´m a fan of it and it´s not everyone´s tool for sure. For me it´s worth alone the costs of Logic and THE outstanding tool in Logic in general (of course there are a million other instruments and FX included which are very great too).
    Sculpture is just something nothing on iOS can come close but it could run on it if Apple would update the GUI one day.

  • edited June 2017

    @cib I see why you'd be a sucker for physical modeling, even the most basic resonator synths are standouts on iOS, all those mentioned above are in my first tier folder, and I use either Mersenne or Laplace on everything I do.

    But to be able to morph, from bell-like to string to flute...brilliant. I hope Apple hears your wish for a Sculpture port.

  • edited June 2017

    they'd be idiots if you take what @Cib said for granted: worth the price of Logic alone ;)
    Just read about Sculpture and don't find it that exclusive at all.

    In early 2000s there was the Creamware Six-String with a similiar paradigm and a rare thing by John Bowen named Python Pro for the same architecture, that used 2 simple FM oscillators plus colored noise plus 2 Resonators as basic sources and could generate the full orchestral spectrum plus all electronic guitar, rhodes, hammond and mad noises.
    (mentioned for Littlewoodg as he has such a system)

    And there's Wolfgang Parm's (fairly old) Plex and his Wavemapper approach.
    Anyway, all these things are 'difficult' to program, no easy rewards in that domain o:)

  • @Telefunky said:
    they'd be idiots if you take what @Cib said for granted: worth the price of Logic alone ;)
    Just read about Sculpture and don't find it that exclusive at all.

    In early 2000s there was the Creamware Six-String with a similiar paradigm and a rare thing by John Bowen named Python Pro for the same architecture, that used 2 simple FM oscillators plus colored noise plus 2 Resonators as basic sources and could generate the full orchestral spectrum plus all electronic guitar, rhodes, hammond and mad noises.
    (mentioned for Littlewoodg as he has such a system)

    And there's Wolfgang Parm's (fairly old) Plex and his Wavemapper approach.
    Anyway, all these things are 'difficult' to program, no easy rewards in that domain o:)

    Wavemapper can´t do what Sculpture can....and vice versa.
    Of course we also have VST´s like Kaleidoscope which can use 512 tuned 2 string resonators per key if you like.
    But i repeat.....there is NOTHING like Sculpture ;)

  • @Littlewoodg said:
    Zed Synth, LaPlace, and Anckorage Spring Sound are 3 physical modeling synths available on iOS. All are worth having and sound wonderful.

    Thanks for those suggestions. Will hold off on Zed for now, but did download the other two. In LaPlace, assigning breath control to “Flavor Strength” produces a nice effect, especially in interaction with other parameters like the noise frequency. Just the kind of thing which makes for fun experiments. As for Springsound, the potential is there for crazy experiments. Somewhat unexpectedly, it responds to breath control by moving the ball up and down, which does produce some interesting results in some patches.

    So, no, those aren’t replacements for Sculpture. But it’ll be fun to play with them.

  • @Telefunky said:
    they'd be idiots if you take what @Cib said for granted: worth the price of Logic alone ;)

    Ah, but here’s the thing they could do… They could make a “player” version of MainStage on iOS, tied to the macOS version. A bit like Logic Remote, but the sounds would be produced by the iOS device.
    Could give iOS musickers a reason to consider the Mac more carefully. And the use of iOS devices in performances would likely grow quite a bit.

  • @Cib said:
    While f.e. Chromaphone and Pianoteq are better for specific sounds the general engine in Sculpture is so great for outstanding organic but still from out of this world textures, instruments, morphs, whatever.

    Nice way to put it.
    Listened to the Chromaphone demo and it does rather versatile in terms of physical modelling itself. Sounds like it could work particularly well for percussive/plucked sounds which are meant to sound like relatively weird acoustic instruments. That could be fun too.
    But, as you say, Sculpture has some things which set it apart. A bit like Alchemy.
    Still can’t believe that all of this is available in the 30USD MainStage. People say Logic Pro X is a bargain at 200USD, but MainStage is just plain remarkable in its value-to-price ratio.
    (First thought that MainStage was an add-on to Logic, that you had to buy Logic first. Never been that interested in DAWs and 200USD is still beyond my budget for a single app to be used only on occasion. MainStage has been a real ear-opener, especially with Alchemy and Sculpture. Been taking some Lynda.com lessons on Logic and MainStage, and those have been quite helpful.)

    Will keep dreaming that Apple could bring some version of MainStage to iOS. GarageBand has improved quite significantly over the years, but a performance-oriented app would go a long way to position Apple’s products in an even stronger part of the musicking landscape.

  • @Enkerli said:

    @Cib said:
    While f.e. Chromaphone and Pianoteq are better for specific sounds the general engine in Sculpture is so great for outstanding organic but still from out of this world textures, instruments, morphs, whatever.

    Nice way to put it.
    Listened to the Chromaphone demo and it does rather versatile in terms of physical modelling itself. Sounds like it could work particularly well for percussive/plucked sounds which are meant to sound like relatively weird acoustic instruments. That could be fun too.
    But, as you say, Sculpture has some things which set it apart. A bit like Alchemy.
    Still can’t believe that all of this is available in the 30USD MainStage. People say Logic Pro X is a bargain at 200USD, but MainStage is just plain remarkable in its value-to-price ratio.
    (First thought that MainStage was an add-on to Logic, that you had to buy Logic first. Never been that interested in DAWs and 200USD is still beyond my budget for a single app to be used only on occasion. MainStage has been a real ear-opener, especially with Alchemy and Sculpture. Been taking some Lynda.com lessons on Logic and MainStage, and those have been quite helpful.)

    Will keep dreaming that Apple could bring some version of MainStage to iOS. GarageBand has improved quite significantly over the years, but a performance-oriented app would go a long way to position Apple’s products in an even stronger part of the musicking landscape.

    Yes, but Logic offers even so much more.....if you need that.

  • @Cib said:

    @Enkerli said:

    Still can’t believe that all of this is available in the 30USD MainStage. People say Logic Pro X is a bargain at 200USD, but MainStage is just plain remarkable in its value-to-price ratio.

    Yes, but Logic offers even so much more.....if you need that.

    Agreed, especially about the “if you need that” part. Don’t feel any need for what Logic Pro X offers. Been having some fun with Ableton Live Lite (thanks to Korg Gadget), and that’s a DAW approach which suits my musicking activities. But the main features of Logic which would have attracted me are found in MainStage. In fact, MainStage’s support for live performance is much closer to my needs.

    So, yes, Logic may be a great product for a lot of people and it probably keeps some musickers on macOS. But it’s funny how little attention is paid to MainStage.
    Also, sounds to me like Apple would have an easier time building an iOS version of MainStage than a full DAW like Logic. Maybe they would want to use either of these to showcase their new iPad Pro models (and support for files). But MainStage would still make the most sense to me.

  • @Enkerli
    If you connected with Laplace give Mersenne a shot.

  • this is one of those things where I would say, in the meantime, to learn to program Animoog better.

  • edited June 2017

    @db909 said:
    this is one of those things where I would say, in the meantime, to learn to program Animoog better.

    Here's the walk/through (for modular, but the principles are all here for whichever)

    http://cdm.link/2016/08/dont-miss-perfect-explanation-modular-physical-modeling/

  • @Littlewoodg said:
    @Enkerli
    If you connected with Laplace give Mersenne a shot.

    Been intrigued by it but isn’t it about percussion? Cool thing about LaPlace, for me, is the support for continuous sounds (blown/bowed). But then, LaPlace implements it through noise as the exciter…

  • @Littlewoodg said:

    @db909 said:
    this is one of those things where I would say, in the meantime, to learn to program Animoog better.

    Here's the walk/through (for modular, but the principles are all here for whichever)

    http://cdm.link/2016/08/dont-miss-perfect-explanation-modular-physical-modeling/

    Thanks. Learnt a lot about physical modelling through the ChucK MOOC
    ChucK supports the Synthesis ToolKit (STK) which has a bunch of physical models. In fact, the STK can somehow be used to create iOS apps, which brings us back to our core topic. Was daydreaming, just today, about creating something in JUCE to access stuff from the STK to create iOS physical modelling synths with very expressive controls.

  • I'll have to start with trying to program Karplus-Strong synthesis using given (likely modular) synth parameters, before I take on coding a physical modeling synthesizer :)

  • @Littlewoodg said:
    I'll have to start with trying to program Karplus-Strong synthesis using given (likely modular) synth parameters, before I take on coding a physical modeling synthesizer :)

    Your choice. In some ways, Karplus-Strong might be easier to code (or to understand through code) than it is to program on a modular. But YMMV.
    The other advantage of the code route is the diversity of models. Some are extensions of Karplus-Strong, but there are models which are more amenable to continuous control.
    Also played around with physical modelling in SuperCollider. Was really edifying.
    Again, to each their own.

  • @db909 said:
    this is one of those things where I would say, in the meantime, to learn to program Animoog better.

    Fair enough. There’s a lot to learn with “anisotropic synthesis”. And there are plenty of cool single-cycle waveforms with which to play. Not really the same kind of idea as physical modelling and it tends to sound more, hm, electric? But your point is heard loud and clear about having a synthesis method which produces really unexpected results.

    A good point to bring up about Animoog is that, while we often talk about synth methods which don’t work nearly as well on iOS as on desktop platforms, Animoog is really iOS-centric and makes proper use of iOS features, including some interfacing methods.

  • edited June 2017

    @Enkerli said:

    @Littlewoodg said:
    I'll have to start with trying to program Karplus-Strong synthesis using given (likely modular) synth parameters, before I take on coding a physical modeling synthesizer :)

    Your choice. In some ways, Karplus-Strong might be easier to code (or to understand through code) than it is to program on a modular. But YMMV.
    The other advantage of the code route is the diversity of models. Some are extensions of Karplus-Strong, but there are models which are more amenable to continuous control.
    Also played around with physical modelling in SuperCollider. Was really edifying.
    Again, to each their own.

    sounds pretty cool - you code it I'll pay a premium on the AppStore when you're ready

  • @Enkerli said:

    @Littlewoodg said:
    @Enkerli
    If you connected with Laplace give Mersenne a shot.

    Been intrigued by it but isn’t it about percussion?

    Mersenne is geared towards melodic percussion sounds as all the envelopes are AD only. But with slowed down attacks you can get nice bowed-bell type sounds.
    It's two voices of 3-OP FM synthesis (in a Y configuration) + noise feeding into a resonator. Not really physical modeling, not quite a full FM synth, but it does make some lovely sounds.

    In LaPlace, assigning breath control to “Flavor Strength” produces a nice effect, especially in interaction with other parameters like the noise frequency. Just the kind of thing which makes for fun experiments.

    Since you can control every parameter of IceGear synths, you can get some pretty crazy modulations. If you have a controller that can send multiple messages, the effect is a very responsive sound. If not, you can apply modulation with a MIDI LFO or after the fact in your DAW. I made a template for Laplace for ModStep and made a quick demo of the full modulations in action. The effect was pretty wild and didn't sound like anything I had heard from the app previously, and while I was trying to just make a demo, I actually liked the result and ended up using it as the base for a track.

  • @aplourde said:

    @Enkerli said:

    @Littlewoodg said:
    @Enkerli
    If you connected with Laplace give Mersenne a shot.

    Been intrigued by it but isn’t it about percussion?

    Mersenne is geared towards melodic percussion sounds as all the envelopes are AD only. But with slowed down attacks you can get nice bowed-bell type sounds.
    It's two voices of 3-OP FM synthesis (in a Y configuration) + noise feeding into a resonator.

    That's really interesting as that's exactly the same strategy as the Python synth I mentioned above (which originated from a modular patch).
    The range of sounds that method is able to create is simply stunning, in particular the fake of 'real' instruments.

  • edited June 2017

    @aplourde said:

    @Enkerli said:

    @Littlewoodg said:
    @Enkerli
    If you connected with Laplace give Mersenne a shot.

    Been intrigued by it but isn’t it about percussion?

    Mersenne is geared towards melodic percussion sounds as all the envelopes are AD only. But with slowed down attacks you can get nice bowed-bell type sounds.
    It's two voices of 3-OP FM synthesis (in a Y configuration) + noise feeding into a resonator. Not really physical modeling, not quite a full FM synth, but it does make some lovely sounds.

    In LaPlace, assigning breath control to “Flavor Strength” produces a nice effect, especially in interaction with other parameters like the noise frequency. Just the kind of thing which makes for fun experiments.

    Since you can control every parameter of IceGear synths, you can get some pretty crazy modulations. If you have a controller that can send multiple messages, the effect is a very responsive sound. If not, you can apply modulation with a MIDI LFO or after the fact in your DAW. I made a template for Laplace for ModStep and made a quick demo of the full modulations in action. The effect was pretty wild and didn't sound like anything I had heard from the app previously, and while I was trying to just make a demo, I actually liked the result and ended up using it as the base for a track.

    That's too cool. Building that template took a minute. Modstep should ship with it, because I want it yesterday. Guess it's time for me to figure out how to build templates in modstep

    Edit: found your template in the other thread, many thanks for this @aplourde !

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