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DAWs - odd time signature support
Hi, all! New to the forum. I've been casually writing little bits and pieces of music with my iPad 2 since I got it about 18 months ago. Now I want to take it more seriously, as its potentially is becoming more and more apparent to me.
Before I take the plunge into grabbing Apogee Jam, a few more apps, and a DAW of some sort, I wanted to get some input on one very important thing for me: time signature support. You guys seem like a knowledgeable bunch, so this seems like a good place to ask. I'm not concerned about tones and automation so much (although automation would be nice), but one thing I cannot compromise is my sense of rhythm, and I have a pretty strange sense of rhythm sometimes!
That being so, I need a DAW that's going to support complete time signature freedom. And I don't just mean a few non-standard options like 7/8. I need something that's going to let me write stuff in 11/8, 13/8 or, hell, even 15/16 if I need to. Does this kind of thing exist? I hear people/reviews/marketing talk about support for multiple time signatures, but that doesn't help me. I need to know what that actually means.
Thanks for any help you can give me.
Comments
I thnk there's only a few apps that support changing time signatures as you're describing. Symphonic Evolution is the first that comes to mind. I think that there aren't too many others outside of that but Auria and Cubasis might be capable as well.
First, welcome to the forum. Hoping that your question will be answered to your expected outcome.
I hear ya on wanting time signature freedom. I wish I could be more of assistance to your question but I am also seeking input for this much needed option. I have most of the major iOS DAWs though I haven't delved too deeply into whether or not they allow non-standard time sigs or if they can be coerced into letting the user apply different time sigs within a single song. As a pessimist, I doubt it can be done. But don't let that persuade you. Other users here more educated will perhaps enlighten both of us.
Just yesterday at work I had a little riff bouncing around in my head that I thought might be a good start to a song and laid it down in Cubasis as MIDI (which I just recently purchased) using the onboard keyboard. It was the default setting of 4/4 at 120 BPM but it didn't seem to mesh with the idea in my mind because of the the T/S and BPM. I tried to edit it to conform to the given default measures but found it was a measure too short to be within the normal? 8 measures I was hoping to seek. I'm more of a standard IVVCVCBSVCCO type of guy.
I haven't had time to adjust the T/S yet to see if that would get the groove in order but hope to here directly.
Maybe off topic, but how do you guys come up with an idea and get it to play nicely with beats (especially drums) that are cohesive?
Why are you posting in threads where this has no relevance??
Thanks for the input so far, guys. It's a little frustrating that something so integral to writing music seems to not have much representation. I kind of begrudge spending money on something if it's only going to inhibit my songwriting by not letting me change time signatures in the middle of a song or write in odd time signatures.
This is one reason why I love iSequence. Although you can't change time signatures, the pattern break lets you simulate bar lines wherever you want them. Even something like this in a more robust, multitrack scenario would be cool.
I suppose the DAW doesn't need to be able to support whacky time signatures as a rule. If I can find a drum machine that supports odd time signatures I can use that as my metronome and track everything else in real time...? Or maybe just use a metronome... Or maybe I'll just force myself to write iPad stuff in regular time signatures :P
With regard to drum machines, DM1 can do patterns in odd time sigs.
"@ mgmg4871: Why are you posting in threads where this has no relevance??"
Perhaps I am missing something but how is is thread irrelevant? Odd time signatures is quite relevant in regards to iOS DAWs. I have just found out that JamStix on the PC is having problems with 7/4 signature. Posting this problem on their forum will surely direct me in the right direction. Perhaps the kind folk here will be as informative.
Keebo, mgmg was referring to a now deleted spam post
You must have not caught it before it was deleted.
PaulB - thanks! I've been looking at DM1 but couldn't find anything explicitly stating it did odd time sigs. That's encouraging.
Cubasis can do 2/4, 3/4, 4/4, 5/4, 6/4, and 7/4. It does not allow you to have more than one time sig per project. I hope that Steinberg will add this in a future update, but its not a highly requested feature, so expect other features to come first. I don't know of an iOS DAW that does multiple time sigs, but would love to know if there is one.
The method in DM1 is to shorten the pattern using the row of buttons above the grid.
Thankfully I missed the spam...Bastards...
I was able to determine the time signature and BPM of my idea after exporting to Sonar which I am more familiar with and rolling the dice to come up with 7/4. A Cubasis expert would surely have found a way to accomplish it without going to a desktop but I digress.
I could have probably found out where to go on the iPAD but was much more comfortable on the PC. I really hope to be able to feel as comfortable on iOS as I am on the PC in the near future. Of mice and men becomes quite apparent.
It's only a matter of time, Keebo.
Thanks for the heads up on DM1, PaulB. Been playing around with it, and it's definitely a step in the right direction for me!
Yeah, I'm into odd time sigs too...
Unless you're working with loops or want to do a lot of 'on the measure' clip editing, 4/4 without an accent works for everything.
Your challenge is to record a track in 13/8, including a kit drum part, using only unaccented 4/4 measures in all the apps you use to create it.
Does it have to be worth listening to? Because I'm pretty sure I couldn't write a thing worth listening to in 13/8 even if the sequencer supported it and I already had Clive Stubblefield drum loops in that time signature.
I'm not sure I even really know the difference between 13/4 and 13/8. Has to do with accenting? 1+2+3+4+1+2+3+4+1+2+3+4+1 is how I'd count both.
Both 13/8 and 13/4 can be subdivided or accented in many ways, the difference between them is merely the note value of each beat. Usually, such odd time sigs are counted in 8th notes, but there are many exceptions.
I find the shift in pulse of such time sigs is what makes them entertaining.
3+4+3+3 has quite a different feel from 4+4+2+3, the first being quite jaunty and dancelike, while the second has an insistent urgency to it. Both are basically 13/8. The difficulty in using an unaccented 4/4 click for recording such patterns is that the click will be on beats 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11 and 13 for the odd measures and on beats 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12 for the even measures, quite apart from ignoring the accents that are meant to be giving the piece its feel.
@Paulb Actually excepted this challenge tonight. Thing is, I thought it was 15/8. Other thing is: what I made in 15/8 was just terrible. If Auria didn't make you name sessions before starting them, I would have called it "Oh Look Ma, Odd Meter Wankery". Ho hum.
Maybe I'll try again tomorrow with 13/8.
It's not a DAW, but for those interested, Werkbench supports odd time sigs. It seems a bit of a cluttered way of doing it, but apparently it's possible: http://iosmusicandyou.com/2013/07/02/ipad-music-app-tutorial-creating-odd-time-signatures-in-werkbench/
I don't have the app yet, but it seems pretty neat and has AB support.
DrumStudio lets you build drum parts in most time sigs. No Audiobus, unfortunately, but it does have ACP and MIDI export.
https://itunes.apple.com/gb/app/drumstudio/id453405042?mt=8
I just found DrumStudio a few weeks ago....it's really a stellar app and so close to being great! It needs "user kits" and Audiobus and a few other misc things. I think it doesn't have user kits because it requires 3 samples for each part in order for velocity variances to work. Still a really good app
+1 for Drumstudio as well. Love the easy way to add drags, rolls, flams etc all of those "drummer" touches that are a PITA to program. It can do any time signature from 1 to 18 beats per measure with up to a 32 note denominator and you can create different sections with time sig and tempo changes and string them together in a song. Like previously said no AB (yet anyway, need to email the dev and ask) and it would be nice if you could import your own samples. It imports and exports midi files.
To keep this on topic the only other app I've found that allows time and tempo changes at will is Symphonix Evolution. It's really a midi/notation editor not a DAW but you can record audio. I like it a lot now that a few bugs were recently fixed.
Sorry for off topic, do Drumstudio able to export separate track? So I can mix in Auria.
And @yowza just said import own sample, does it means I can use my own drum sound instead of default drum sound?
You can export as a MIDI or Audio file (plus a few other formats) but it looks like you are exporting one file so I assume the audio's in stereo, but no option to save individual tracks. There is a built in mixer so I'm guessing you might be able to turn down certain instruments and export the Audio to solo out each instrument, not sure if that would work or if it's what you're asking. There are four internal kits. The manual says it has MIDI in and out but I haven't had a chance to try that yet to trigger another drum set.
No, Drumstudio does not allow for importing your own samples yet. I emailed Rollerchimp earlier today and just got an encouraging reply:
"Hello,
Thanks for the positive feedback.
Audiobus and importing samples will both be added in future updates. Not sure on exact time frames but audiobus should certainly be soonish.
Cheers,
Andrew (Rollerchimp)"
@RockingGarage - you would have to mute the other tracks and do them one at a time (which I did today to take into Auria). It does have Midi In/Out you have to turn on/off in settings and I've used it to trigger Cubasis drums before.
What makes DrumStudio unique is the support for abnormal time signatures and the easy ability to program hits, flams, rolls, doubles, and "mutes" all in three different velocities. By mutes I mean if you place one a step or two after a ride it will kill it (realistically). With a few more features it will be a great app!
Grabbed DrumStudio. Really cool app! Love the dynamics and easy programming. It's got a lot of potential for sure.
I've had DrumStudio for a long time, and I really, REALLY like it. The only things that I would like to add to it (as has already been mentioned, would be Audiobus, the ability to import samples, and also MIDI sync that works with Auria and Cubasis. Great App, and inexpensive too!
I think I've mentioned this in another post but the drum app that iFretless (TheBlueMangoo) and I are developing will allow you to use in-app loops or custom made loops that can be assigned their own individual bpm (each loop to have its own bpm that can change from loop to loop in a timeline)
Are these MIDI loops or audio loops?
@PaulB they are .wav files assigned to midi notes...triggered by the midi note. Designed in such a way that the sound remains constant regardless of how fast or slow they are played...I'm hoping to have a working test in August and I can give a little more info...but they sound great.
Sounds cool. Will we be able to add our own MIDI loops which can use the same wavs?
EDIT: Sorry, being stupid, you did mention custom made loops