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O.T.: An extraordinarily dark day in American history...

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Comments

  • @LinearLineman said:
    I thought last week would wake a lot of people up. Apparently not.

    Many that stormed the Capital believed this was prophecy... and like any Cult group that
    puts a timestamp on prophecy they are now facing some ugly reality. This man was NOT sent by God to save America. They followed his instructions and the Government did not
    turn over the keys to another 4 years of Trump.

    Now the faction of supporters that followed this line of violence for control still exists and
    they will "stand back and stand by" for additional campaigns. I suspect we will see many small insurgencies and terrorist actions over the course of the next 4 years with an election
    that either re-visits what the country is or redefines the core values of the Republican Party.

    The method they use to determine their candidate will work against them... another populist
    strong man will emerge from a popularity contest. I might register as a Republican to have some influence over that critical stage in the process... or at least feel that I tried to stem the swing towards facism. We need to inject new systems of values into the political landscape
    to counter the forces of hate.

    It might be a lost cause but I'm happy for the era I lived in. The reigns are being past to a new generation and I think they'll do well as the current power factions start to die off.
    Sheldon Adelson, the one Koch brother... tic-tic. Rupert's days are numbered and that will
    help since facism might be a damaged brand but time will tell.

    We will all be replaced. It's the circle of life.

  • edited January 2021
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  • @Ailerom said:
    This is my view. There are really good people and there are really bad people. They all have different morals and beliefs that make them who they are. Although this might determine whether they are Democrat, Republican, blue, red, left or right there is no black or white. There is only the grey in between. To talk like a republican is x and a democrat is y is ignoring one of the most obvious human traits which is that we are all different. Just because someone is a republican surely doesn't always mean they are a 100% republican. There could be a multitude of reasons why they are red and it could be that they are really on the fence with most issues. Just my 2 cents. Ignore me if you disagree.

    Sure, there is gray. But, there are also facts. And if you look at some of the things that people that voted for Trump and watch Fox news believe -- that are verifiably false -- one has to abandon the notion that all shades of gray are equally legitimate and that ignorance lands equally on both sides of the divide.

    I agree people tend to overgeneralize and over-label things. AND one of those overgeneralizations is the both-sidesist notion that there must be some sort of balance in opposing viewpoints.

  • @LinearLineman said:.
    I thought last week would wake a lot of people up. Apparently not. Latest poll showed 42% of Republicans would vote for Corrump in 2024.

    To be honest I think part of the problem is that up until now the militias and far-right groups have been allowed to get away with things that others (i.e. BLM protesters, etc.) would never be allowed to get away with, which emboldens them and gives them a sense that their truth is the correct truth.

    Can you imagine what would happen if a BLM protest consisted of people dressed and armed in the same way as these people?

    It took an attack that put lawmakers’ lives at risk for anything to be done. Without this I suspect that all of the insurgents would have been allowed to continue to operate with impunity.

    Hopefully this is the start of a realization of what toleration of a certain group of lawbreakers does, and maybe some soul-searching to realize how broad the problem is, and which institutional groups are supportive of these groups.

  • @espiegel123 said:

    @LinearLineman said:
    Michigan armed protests and occupation last spring. A dry run. Capitol insurrection. Another dry run.

    I thought last week would wake a lot of people up. Apparently not. Latest poll showed 42% of Republicans would vote for Corrump in 2024.

    Whiteness is a helluva drug

    That's not what it is. That tiresome reflex of liberals to make everything about race is getting really old. Are they racist? Sure, many/most of them probably. But that's not why they hate you, or even support Trump. It's just one thing in a long list of (poorly thought through) resentments.

    Race could entirely disappear as an issue and it would not change one iota of their behavior.

  • edited January 2021

    @michael_m, I tend to agree with you. Capitalism and its powerful offspring probably do not like the idea of idiots and fascists and their attacks on democracy. First the Capitol.. and then... Google? Amazon? Apple? I think the full force of the energized system will crush these “militias”... what a supercilious name for a bunch of thugs, many of whom live with their mothers. They will drive the extremists back underground, and, as @McD said, will plague “law and order” for years to come. But, as the demographics inevitably change, the white man (and their abominable women like Boebeck) will be overrun by sheer numbers of browns, Asians and blacks. Hopefully, they will be better... but they are humans, after all.

  • @cian said:

    @espiegel123 said:

    @LinearLineman said:
    Michigan armed protests and occupation last spring. A dry run. Capitol insurrection. Another dry run.

    I thought last week would wake a lot of people up. Apparently not. Latest poll showed 42% of Republicans would vote for Corrump in 2024.

    Whiteness is a helluva drug

    That's not what it is. That tiresome reflex of liberals to make everything about race is getting really old. Are they racist? Sure, many/most of them probably. But that's not why they hate you, or even support Trump. It's just one thing in a long list of (poorly thought through) resentments.

    Race could entirely disappear as an issue and it would not change one iota of their behavior.

    Are there factors besides race ALSO? Sure.

    But the notion that racism isn't a big factor seems totally wrong. The reason why it may seem tired is that racism is an ongoing insidious problem. Being tiresome doesn't make something wrong.

    Do you disagree that racism continues to be a significant problem?

    There may be some Trumpists for whom race is not an issue, but I believe that it is a huge issue. White liberals (particularly during the Obama years) until recently (i.e. the Trump years) have been as guilty as most white Americans in believing that we have moved into a post-racial America -- and they tend to be not very aware of the degree to which institutionalized and non-official structural racism have a huge impact in varied ways.

    Have there been some liberals that have trotted out forever? Sure. AND, racism has continued to be a huge issue. So, yeah, it is tired -- and will be until we finally make some serious progress. Things have stalled majorly in that respect for the last few decades.

    Wanting to live in a white-dominated America may not be the ONLY reason -- or even a reason they would articulate -- but it is a tie that binds many people to Trumpism and the GOP even when they actually generally don't agree with GOP policy positions. I would have thought Trumpism laid that bare -- when it managed to violate all the tenets of traditional conservatism but increased the avidness of their base.

    Racism has become more acceptable in the mainstream than ever before. Roy Moore would have been soundly rejected by national GOP figures when he talked about things being better when slavery existed. But, you can say that now and still get the support of the national party.

  • @michael_m said:

    @LinearLineman said:.
    I thought last week would wake a lot of people up. Apparently not. Latest poll showed 42% of Republicans would vote for Corrump in 2024.

    To be honest I think part of the problem is that up until now the militias and far-right groups have been allowed to get away with things that others (i.e. BLM protesters, etc.) would never be allowed to get away with, which emboldens them and gives them a sense that their truth is the correct truth.

    Yeah I really don't think the militias in and of themselves are the problem as there really aren't that many of them, and they're pretty lousy street fighters. If the authorities wanted to they could arrest most of them pretty easily and lock them up for a while.

    It's more the fact that nobody's doing anything about them and what that says about law enforcement and their priorities. I think if there was to be a successful (or even moderately serious) coup attempt in the US it would be backed by the police. I don't that even now people have really faced up to what that means.

  • @LinearLineman said:
    @michael_m, I tend to agree with you. Capitalism and its powerful offspring probably do not like the idea of idiots and fascists and their attacks on democracy. First the Capitol.. and then... Google? Amazon? Apple? I think the full force of the energized system will crush these “militias”... what a supercilious name for a bunch of thugs, many of whom live with their mothers.

    I heard a great term for them the other day - “Gravy SEALS” - people who are too fat and unfit to join the military, but like to dress up as if they are in the military.

  • @Max23 said:
    btw. anyone remember the band "Reagan Youth"?
    there is no band "trump youth" yet afaik
    that's a missed opportunity >:)

    I remember Ciccone Youth. I remember Sayyid namechecking them in Airborne Audio interviews and realising that he'd managed what I thought was the impossible: making me like/respect him/APC even more than I already did. He also gave shouts to Magma, Can & Neu! The latter two of which didn't surprise me but the first actually did. Magma were (/are?) batshit.

  • edited January 2021

    Do you disagree that racism continues to be a significant problem?

    I'm not arguing about whether racism is a significant problem, I'm just saying that at least for the Trumpers that I know (and unfortunately I know a lot) it's really not what motivates them. You could solve race tomorrow and they'd still be angry about single gender goldfish occupying the white house or something. Most of what they believe is bullshit and I don't know what motivates it honestly. It's not teribly rational. Are they racist? Sure. Is that why they support Trump. Not really, I mean it doesn't hurt, but it's not what gets them out of bed.

    White liberals (particularly during the Obama years) until recently (i.e. the Trump years) have been as guilty as most white Americans in believing that we have moved into a post-racial America

    Okay. I never believed that. I'm a foreigner living in South Carolina, that divide is pretty visceral.

    or even a reason they would articulate -- but it is a tie that binds many people to Trumpism and the GOP even when they actually generally don't agree with GOP policy positions.

    You want the thing, like the main thing, that binds them. It's that they're Republicans. And he says the stuff they think - not the mealy mouthed national party stuff, but the raw stuff that Republicans say amongst themselves (and which you see on Fox). That's the thing. And do you know why they think that stuff? Because they're relatively wealthy, or they love them some law and order, or they're in a megachurch or something. They're conservatives - it ain't that complicated.

    Your average Trump supporter is some guy who owns a reasonably successful (but could be doing better) lawn business, is in his 50s, doesn't like the fact that his kids disagree with him and vaguely thinks the world is going to hell (because he's an old guy).

    I would have thought Trumpism laid that bare -- when it managed to violate all the tenets of traditional conservatism but increased the avidness of their base.

    What do you think conservatism is? It's the defense of power and privilege. They'll tell you all kinds of bullshit along the way, but if they need to start a riot to steal an election (Bush), or to become mayor (Guilani's cop riot in New York) then they'll do that. 60 years ago these people were murdering black people to defend their rights.

    Liberals care about process - right wingers don't (unless it helps them), and have always been very relaxed about hypocrisy (another thing liberals never seem to understand).

    Racism has become more acceptable in the mainstream than ever before.

    >

    Roy Moore would have been soundly rejected by national GOP figures when he talked about things being better when slavery existed. But, you can say that now and still get the support of the national party.

    I don't think this is true and ignores how racist America was in the 80s. What I think you're mistaking is that a lot of this stuff has become more visible (and consequently harder for racists to dodge). A lot of this stuff used to be said in private, but is now exposed in public. A lot of things used to be okay (police violence against black people), and now that people have turned against them Republican are forced to publicly defend them. Generally people are now more aware of the complexities of US racism, and so there's more coverage of it. That's progress, even if it's a rather uncomfortable one.

    There are also lots of areas in the US now where it's completely unacceptable to be even slightly racist and you can see all kinds of moderate conservatives and right wing liberals (mostly white guys) get really nervous about it. Hence 'cancel culture'.

  • @michael_m said:

    @LinearLineman said:
    @michael_m, I tend to agree with you. Capitalism and its powerful offspring probably do not like the idea of idiots and fascists and their attacks on democracy. First the Capitol.. and then... Google? Amazon? Apple? I think the full force of the energized system will crush these “militias”... what a supercilious name for a bunch of thugs, many of whom live with their mothers.

    I heard a great term for them the other day - “Gravy SEALS” - people who are too fat and unfit to join the military, but like to dress up as if they are in the military.

    I love that. We used to call a friend who always dressed in military garb in high school “GI Don’t know.” We were kidding though and he knew it, and he joined the navy right after graduation.

    My youngest brother is a former marine reservist (well, I mean his duty is up and he no longer actively serves), and I know he is very upset right now about the actions of those who thought it was a good idea to storm the capitol.

    I have had a thought recently that I’d love to see what would happen if we just gave people a choice- they can stay with Trump and family and set up a new country to run it the way that they think is the best, and those of us that choose the remain with the USA could do so. I’m not really serious in setting it up, but it would be an interesting experiment. How long do you think it would last? And for purposes of the thought, we will assume international relations, invasions, etc won’t be a problem. I would remain in the USA, not Trumpland.

  • @mrufino1

    Thought provoking stuff.

  • Excellent idea but it would be Trumpia, surely?

  • @qryss said:
    Excellent idea but it would be Trumpia, surely?

    As long as it says trump on it he’ll be ok with whatever the name is! I have played gigs at both of his NJ golf clubs as well as 2 of his casinos and his picture and name were on everything. actually, it was technically only one of his casinos, because I played at the Tai Mahal right after he ran it into the ground then abandoned ship. The employees didn’t have much nice to say about him...

    The sound crew at Trump Plaza were always very cool though. He must not have run that department! 😂

  • There’s an awfully large assembly of military at the moment I hope they remain loyal to the constitution and not the cult.

  • The user and all related content has been deleted.
  • Only four days until Joe Biden brings us sugar and tea and rum.

  • edited January 2021

    Thanks for this link. I just read this whole powerful article.

    Once the door to the crazy is opened, it’s so hard to close again.

    And even for the “regular” non-militia Republicans...it’s so hard to turn back after having gone so far down the road.

    Renouncing Trump, even at this point, requires renouncing their entire worldview. And their whole circle of friends and social world. Even for those that are personally decent to others (but failingly comfortable with vile behavior from their chosen leaders) its just a bridge too far.

    As Dear Leader likes to say...Sad!

  • @ExAsperis99 said:
    Only four days until Joe Biden brings us sugar and tea and rum.

    And fluffy unicorns.

  • @BiancaNeve said:

    @ExAsperis99 said:
    Only four days until Joe Biden brings us sugar and tea and rum.

    And fluffy unicorns.

    Hey, I'll taken 'em. RIght now I'm worn down to my unicorn nub etc.

  • @ExAsperis99 said:
    Only four days until Joe Biden brings us sugar and tea and rum.

    and a semblance of sanity and decorum

  • @BiancaNeve said:

    @ExAsperis99 said:
    Only four days until Joe Biden brings us sugar and tea and rum.

    And fluffy unicorns.

    Then he’s gonna kick the bucket and we’ll have the first black female president, which was the plan all along. Then we all can have a party and die because we’ve seen it all (because she’s going to come out of the closet at the inauguration).

  • The user and all related content has been deleted.
  • @cian said:

    Do you disagree that racism continues to be a significant problem?

    I'm not arguing about whether racism is a significant problem, I'm just saying that at least for the Trumpers that I know (and unfortunately I know a lot) it's really not what motivates them. You could solve race tomorrow and they'd still be angry about single gender goldfish occupying the white house or something. Most of what they believe is bullshit and I don't know what motivates it honestly. It's not teribly rational. Are they racist? Sure. Is that why they support Trump. Not really, I mean it doesn't hurt, but it's not what gets them out of bed.

    Nothing in what you just said implies that racism is not currently a major factor in the current coalition that provides a point of coalescence. Yes, if racism went away, they would find other grievances AND that would mean that the actual people in the coalition would shift.

    The GOP is where it is because of the coalition that they built. And currently, a binding factor is racism and xenophobia with a strong dose of misogyny.

    The racism has become increasingly overt -- which has normalized it -- which amplifies it. When racism becomes widely accepted, more people will act on it than during eras where it is less acceptable. Tucker Carlson, Laura Ingraham, these people are major figures with lots of eyeballs and they have ramped it up.

    What do you think conservatism is? It's the defense of power and privilege. They'll tell you all kinds of bullshit along the way, but if they need to start a riot to steal an election (Bush), or to become mayor (Guilani's cop riot in New York) then they'll do that. 60 years ago these people were murdering black people to defend their rights.

    Conservatism isn't a single thing -- but in the Trump years it has dropped much of its pretense of being about social liberty (which was always a joke) and fiscal responsibility (also always a joke but until their trillion dollar tax cut for the rich that caused the deficit to skyrocket, they made a pretense of believing in it). What was left was discrimination and hatred of the other. At a time of decreased immigration they stoked up fears of the U.S. being invaded by foreign cultures.

    Racism has become more acceptable in the mainstream than ever before.

    >

    Roy Moore would have been soundly rejected by national GOP figures when he talked about things being better when slavery existed. But, you can say that now and still get the support of the national party.

    I don't think this is true and ignores how racist America was in the 80s. What I think you're mistaking is that a lot of this stuff has become more visible (and consequently harder for racists to dodge). A lot of this stuff used to be said in private, but is now exposed in public. A lot of things used to be okay (police violence against black people), and now that people have turned against them Republican are forced to publicly defend them. Generally people are now more aware of the complexities of US racism, and so there's more coverage of it. That's progress, even if it's a rather uncomfortable one.

    There are also lots of areas in the US now where it's completely unacceptable to be even slightly racist and you can see all kinds of moderate conservatives and right wing liberals (mostly white guys) get really nervous about it. Hence 'cancel culture'.

    I don't know what to say. You are providing that facts that back up what I am saying. My point was -- and you confirm -- racism has become more acceptable -- which was my point. They don't feel the need to keep it secret.

    I am not ignoring how racist the U.S. was in the 80s -- and have said nothing to indicate that. My point is -- and there is a wealth of data to back this up: racism/antisemitism/xenophobia have become more socially acceptable than it has been in decades. I would say that as racist as things were under Reagan -- it is far worse and far more overt. During the Reagan-era, people tried to hide their racism. For a whole host of reasons, racism has become publicly acceptable among a wider swath of society than it was for decades.

    It is a fact. And the number of aggressive and micro-aggressive acts of racism/antisemitism/xenophobia have grown.

    Perhaps, you live sheltered from this by being in South Carolina -- where overt racism may not have changed much by virtue of being one of the most racists states of the union.

    Oddly, at the same time that racism has made a public resurgence, there are more people than ever before that identify it as a problem.

    This will probably drive the tension between anti-racists and racists for decades. The viewpoints are irreconciable. So, those that are not comfortable with multi-culturalism will feeel a need to find anyway possible to maintain a voice in policy.

  • Is multi-culturalism even a thing any more? Seems to me everything is cultural appropriation....

  • @Max23 said:

    @supadom said:

    @BiancaNeve said:

    @ExAsperis99 said:
    Only four days until Joe Biden brings us sugar and tea and rum.

    And fluffy unicorns.

    Then he’s gonna kick the bucket and we’ll have the first black female president, which was the plan all along. Then we all can have a party and die because we’ve seen it all (because she’s going to come out of the closet at the inauguration).

    wouldn't be a bad thing.
    we had a gay foreign minister, I laughed my ass off every time I saw him in places like Iran. (obviously he didn´t bring his husband) ^^

    I can imagine taking your same sex husband to Iran wouldn’t have a positive diplomatic effect.

  • edited January 2021
    The user and all related content has been deleted.
  • @supadom said:

    @Max23 said:

    @supadom said:

    @BiancaNeve said:

    @ExAsperis99 said:
    Only four days until Joe Biden brings us sugar and tea and rum.

    And fluffy unicorns.

    Then he’s gonna kick the bucket and we’ll have the first black female president, which was the plan all along. Then we all can have a party and die because we’ve seen it all (because she’s going to come out of the closet at the inauguration).

    wouldn't be a bad thing.
    we had a gay foreign minister, I laughed my ass off every time I saw him in places like Iran. (obviously he didn´t bring his husband) ^^

    I can imagine taking your same sex husband to Iran wouldn’t have a positive diplomatic effect.

    Hey, why not? What is wrong with you! Those people with their amazing culture are considered being among the precious. Regardless if they are at home or here among us in our countries in great number. They are one of the most important pillars of multiculturalism. Tolerance, peace, equality, unlimited empathy and intelligence. And basically all that great stuff important today, they just have it, naturally. That is why humanists all around the globe LOVE them as much as the maybe 3-4 other ethnical groups they manage to love. Out of so many diverse groups that exist and that mainstream humanists hate.

This discussion has been closed.