Daw concept on ios is obsolete

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Comments

  • Well, @jonmoore, I, for one, will never ignore you (or anyone) and hope you will weather the storm and inconvenience of having others think you have judged harshly when you have not meant harm... or even if you did. I guess my most embarrassing and hurtful time was when I rather pedantically, but innocently, called folks to adjust their usage of "your and you're". My alleged condemnation of second language speakers and iPhone users garnered great disdain
    and repetitive witless witticisms beyond anything I had imagined. I guess I could have left in a huff of indignation, but I chose to express my real feelings and the degree of hurt I felt, instead. It did make me feel better, anyway. And I got a couple of soothing pms. More importantly, life moved on.. till someone revived the damn thread! Again, my ego called on my mouth to justify my actions... but in the end it is useless. Sometimes we attempt to crucify and sometimes we get crucified unjustly (pretty apt for today) and sometimes justly. Whichever, no one will really hold it against you as you are a good contributor and communicator and obviously something was on your chest you had to get off.

    Your response, however, was, despite your denial (always a tell), egocentric. I don't think anyone was labeling you as a bad actor on the NS2 thread. You seemed to have taken that on yourself. Stating your achievements, as pointed out, is entirely irrelevant. Characterizing this forum as a nexus of heated debate (and implied verbal violence) is far from the truth compared to most other expletive hurling sites where folks are passionate about the subject or their own projected personae. A more humble approach certainly would have worked better... but humility is a dish best served on your knees and few have the taste for it.

    I noticed you as a new and welcome voice, Jon. It was great to read your informative posts and I look forward to more. Yes, people said some hurtful things to you privately and publicly. @brambos was equally and innocently hurt. He took a few words from one person greatly to heart. He will surely not quit the forum because of it, and I am sure his more tender parts are well on the way to healing and that he will not hold it against you as you have apologized, tho not with great enthusiasm. 😤🤕🙈

    So, the choice is yours. If I had left cause I felt unjustly treated it would have been my loss, not the forum's. No one will hold this against you cause most of us have put our feet in our mouths sooner or later. But one thing, in a long list of lessons I have learned here.... you can't bullshit these guys. Welcome to the forum.

  • @CracklePot said:
    Aw man.
    I can’t ignore myself?
    :D

    We all do but don't know it!

  • @LinearLineman I welcome your words of both support and constructive criticism. If I do decide to stop posting here it's not a matter of a bruised ego and it's certainly based on more than the events of this weekend.

    It's also fair to say that not only have I recieved nasty PM's but supportive ones too.

    I make it a policy of not screaming my achievements on music tech forums as it's both unimportant and irrelevant. My only defense in this instance is that I was attempting to show my support of iOS as a music production tool by the fact that I relied on Enso on a recent release. It wasn't an attempt to show the 'big I am' as my Irish grandmother would call it.

    I think it's highly likely that I will decide to stop posting here, simply for the fact that people don't seem to trust my motives.

  • edited April 21

    iOS is still a bit of a development playground and it still feels very immature compared to Mac OS. This can work to the advantage of developers though as nothing is set in stone and the landscape is very much still evolving.

    One interesting aspect of that is that when the original Mac OS was as old as the iPad is today we had a very mature environment. Graphics pros had quark xpress , illustrator, Freehand etc and built a new industry changing market.

    We had pro tools, Logic, Cubase, Vision, performer etc and the Mac changed another industry with its use in studios.

    iOS isn’t there (yet) but there are lots of really interesting things happening and a lot of the innovation is coming from the small indies like audiobus, keymatica and Brambros to name but three.

    It’s interesting watching this happen and to see how iOS can disrupt the status quo — Rocking all over the world.

  • @jonmoore said:
    I think it's highly likely that I will decide to stop posting here, simply for the fact that people don't seem to trust my motives.

    It might be more that your posts are very ‘sorry but not sorry’. Add in a bit of humble bragging which feels like you leverage it to persuade people in your arguments. There is nothing wrong with constructive criticism but look at how yours evolved. It only became constructive once you were called out and should really be in another thread specific to the software you are looking for improvement on.

  • Def given up on the “All iOS” thing .. Buying a Yamaha MODX as a controller today as well as a Swuarp Pyramid sequencer . Using Auria Pro and NS2 for other things as well.

  • @doug>; @jonmoore said:

    @LinearLineman I welcome your words of both support and constructive criticism. If I do decide to stop posting here it's not a matter of a bruised ego and it's certainly based on more than the events of this weekend.

    It's also fair to say that not only have I recieved nasty PM's but supportive ones too.

    I make it a policy of not screaming my achievements on music tech forums as it's both unimportant and irrelevant. My only defense in this instance is that I was attempting to show my support of iOS as a music production tool by the fact that I relied on Enso on a recent release. It wasn't an attempt to show the 'big I am' as my Irish grandmother would call it.

    I think it's highly likely that I will decide to stop posting here, simply for the fact that people don't seem to trust my motives.

    I don’t know anything about what any of this is about. I’ve got to the point where I only skim the forum quickly, read only what’s immediately relevant to my interest, and offer my opinion if I think it might add something.

    When I see your posts, if they have anything to do with my own interests, I tend to read them because it sounds like you mostly know what you’re talking about.

  • @rezidue said:

    @jonmoore said:
    I think it's highly likely that I will decide to stop posting here, simply for the fact that people don't seem to trust my motives.

    It might be more that your posts are very ‘sorry but not sorry’. Add in a bit of humble bragging which feels like you leverage it to persuade people in your arguments. There is nothing wrong with constructive criticism but look at how yours evolved. It only became constructive once you were called out and should really be in another thread specific to the software you are looking for improvement on.

    I'm not looking to leverage my argument with 'humble bragging' but you're entitled to view things through that lens.

    I do however have a right to defend myself against my accusers. I haven't formulated my constructive arguments as a post-note. They were in my mind when I made my original post. The reason they weren't mentioned specifically was because the main point of my post wasn't @brambos, it was the tendency for iOS apps to be over-hyped and this can have a very damaging effect to the iOS music sector in general as customers can often get swept along by the hype and purchase a lot of apps that weren't the best choice for their needs.

    The motivation for my post was the OP's premise that the DAW concept on iOS is obsolete. He started this thread after a number of dismissive posts in the Nanostudio 2 thread on the same subject.

    There's a consensus that iOS is a great option as it provides far greater value for money over the desktop. But I pay less than $200 roughly once every 3/4 years to keep my Ableton Live license up to date. And FL Studio offers free upgrades for life. I'd estimate going by the regular names that crop up on each new app release thread that some are investing in excess of $50 per month on iOS. That soon adds up to a lot of cheddar on a supposedly 'value for money' platform.

    The regular posters on this forum, many of which are $50 a month spenders are a microcosm of the wider iOS music app-buying public but the words shared on this forum are hugely influential as the Audiobus forum comes up at the top of search results for many keyword searches on Google.

    I use a lot of modular apps on iOS platform, and purchased Atom on the day it was released but I've also seen many posts from artists that feel that the modular approach means they're less productive so they're looking to commit to an iOS DAW.

    One of the biggest problems I have with modularity as a DAW replacement is that the cost of all those individual limited/focused functionality apps soon stacks up to a higher cost than a decent iOS DAW. If those apps then only have a shelf live of a couple of years before the developers are releasing new versions that have to be purchased again, the likes of Auria, Cubasis, Nanostudio etc is not only providing richer functionality, it's providing far better value for money. And for many a workflow that's more apt to their specific needs.

  • @jonmoore said:

    I recieved nasty PM's

    Blimey, I’ve been on (and off) this forum for about 6 years. I’m an opinionated old bugger, so I’ve probably crossed swords with at least half the people on here at some point, but I can honestly say in all that time I’ve never had a nasty PM sent to me (there’s always a first time, Monzo).

    Not doubting what you’ve said, but surprised anyone on here would do this. If they have, then report it.

    Personally I’d just forget about what’s gone down in recent threads and move on, you obviously know your stuff so your contributions are going to help others. If I can carry on after some of the batterings I’ve had, anyone can.

  • Stop tagging me. Stop trolling me. Stop singling me out. @Michael

  • @jonmoore , very good observations, but I, being a year old iOS fan, don't really agree with some. It seems you are in the minority when it comes to VST expenses... like you have none, and that's great, but for me I think the costs would be much higher on desktop, (with appreciably better instruments than iOS), as I am about 80-20 acoustics. Just the Kontakt libraries would be a large investment compared to iOS, plus a couple of good pianos and the cost of some effects plugins, Cubase or Logic, seems like a couple of grand (plus the computer, of course). I have perhaps misspent $200 on iOS apps. It was a few months to discern what worked for me or not. I have bought a few apps based on AB recommendations, but the heated enthusiasm accompanying new apps never was a big influence. Everyone has to lean their way on a new platform. That includes some inevitable missteps. As a young musician in the late sixties, nothing was affordable or even existed! I am as financially challenged as the next guy but I don't think buying a few hundred dollars worth of modular apps good for as long as one is creative enough to use them is misleading as to the affordability of iOS. And I am strictly a Cubasis user.

  • @brambos said:
    Stop tagging me. Stop trolling me. Stop singling me out. @Michael

    I'm not targeting or trolling you. I've kept any response regarding the matter to this thread and I've tagged you so that you're fully away of anything I'm saying, as that only seemed the right thing to do under the circumstances. I've not been posting in any other social media sites about this. Which doesn't seem to be a favour you've returned in my direction.

    It's me that's had a barrage of ill-tempered PM's targeted at my Facebook, Twitter and SoundCloud accounts, and somehow I'm the troll and bully. :(

    If you had sent me a PM asking me to correct my unfair assumptions I would have done it straight away. And even after your aggressive response to me I publicly apologised straight away. But I do believe I had a right to defend myself from the torrent of abuse I've had this last 18 hrs or so.

    You'll be glad to know that I've decided to stop posting here on the Audiobus forum. So you'll not hear from me or of me again.

  • McDMcD
    edited April 21

    @jonmoore said:
    I'm making no accusations here, simply asking questions.

    It's great to generalize the discussion to many several developers. Here's my take on
    the feedback between developers and users.

    As I started to understand the IOS landscape I saw many posts re: Virsyn putting out
    Apps then then just walking away without ever fixing the problems. I got the message
    and didn't buy anything from @Virsyn.

    At one point I became interested in Reverb's and the reviews of AudioReverb were glowing.
    I bought it and it speaks for itself. Still... those other Apps remained suspect as being flawed and a waste of money.

    Then AudioLayer hit the store: I'm a digital workstation type (Yamaha, Roland, Korg, Kurzweil) and the holy grail is to have the ability to load multi-layered Sample Sets with
    FX. Instant buy.

    Then the community here dug into the product and the complaints about everything it could not do as compared to the hardware samplers which are not it's use case. Then the issue
    of importing sound fonts. It didn't have that feature. Soon, it added EXS instruments which opened a big door for instrument import especially if yo have a Mac with MainStage which has dozens of quality instruments that can be exported in this format.

    So, I started waiting to see if @Virsyn would deliver the "big update" to make the app more
    useful with either:
    Auto-sampling
    SF2 and/or SFZ importing

    Over this time I learned Virsyn is a single programmer (Harry Gohs) with 21 Apps being supported and updated. Digging through the Forum I found a lot of posts written by Harry and could see that he was forced by IOS market economics to use a different approach to IOS Apps than you would get for the $50 Apps sold on Desktops for those $200-500 DAW's.
    Harry said there's just no return for writing manuals. Sorry. It's worth noting developers love the flow of writing code so Harry is daily faced with decisions to write a new App for the big
    cash inflow, fix outstanding bugs, add AUv3 to an older app (which is just and update) that might get new sales, use email with customers that probably bombard him with support needs. @Virsyn is a husband and wife team.

    Most of the desktop users that come into the IOS world are amazed at the lack of support for IOS Apps and they can be righteously indignant and not getting their ideas supported here they can get angry and then the anger turns towards just wanting to "fight, flee" but rarely flow because now it's personal. A user asked to leave the site to cool off decided to never come back because "those people are not very nice". Sad but perfectly understandable because he was just angry about a very flawed App update that broke his workflow.

    So, there's a pattern and ignore is irrelevant. If we loose @jonmoore from the forum we have lost a lot of value for users that are interested in the larger use of music tools. We'll
    have to tolerate his standards of excellent which are based upon the desktop tools market where small developers can ask $50-100 for their plug-ins and sell to the pros that use those tools to make money.

    It would be very hard to find anyone making money from IOS Music Tools. We'd all like to thing it's possible but I'm sure @jonmoore would wonder why limit yourself if indeed you want to sell the results of your work.

    Anyway, talking about ideas and using Apps (like Virsyn) as examples seems fair but I wouldn't be shocked to see @Virsyn post here and explain that I don't know what I'm talking about and I hurt his feelings by thinking I do. Maybe he'd use words that make me double down and I'd get asked to cool it. I could see it happening to me.

    I hope @jonmoore stays and is forgiven for letting his ideas become something worth fighting to defend. Debates can escalate over loved Apps and developers with a lot of
    Karma. Recognize that and respect that your opinions might be "fighting words" and create feuds.

    If someone is angry and the messages come back "Ignore" it will fan the flames because angry people already feel misunderstood which is why they keep explaining their intent until they just quit trying. @jonmoore is ready to just quit. If we let him it's really a loss of potential for interesting ideas to comfort hurt egos.

    Sorry, @brambos. @Michael turned on the dreaded "ignore" to stop voices you want to tune out. It doesn't help does it. Now that voice will be silenced. Agree to disagree.

    The "ignore" user button is only useful to avoid noisy assholes and not to prevent personal insults. When you feel insulted by a bully you should never curl up in a fetal position, right?

    @jonmoore is still trying to make his point and how we respond will make all the difference in the usefulness of the Forum to challenge vendors, developers and skilled users
    to respond to our requests for better products. We all want better choices and better updates and it can get raucous at times when feelings get hurt.

  • I think there are several different types of app users on the forum with different workflows and goals. Any attempts to pit them against one another or decide which approach is better misses the boat.

    I think @jonmoore picked the wrong developer to use as an example. In addition, the current prices for apps and the sales volume of apps on the App Store for music creation apps doesn’t support the same level of service as apps on desktop platforms simply because it would not be economically viable. This is why we don’t have Ableton, or Reason on iOS in addition to file structure and hardware resource limitations. In addition, the smaller screens aren’t always conducive to the more complex structure of these DAWs.

    Korg is a recognized brand so this helps them in the iOS market place. They’re really the only major music company that has invested significant time and money into iOS. Even so, their developer resources are limited and they will frequently go several years without updating their standalone apps. In addition they have yet to update any or their apps to AUv3 or to support hosting AUv3 apps.

    I ‘m of the opinion that @brambos can be accurately described as an app designer and has a clear vision and implementation of his apps so there’s little need to add features once they’re released. He does address user concerns and seek user input too.

    As to the utility of the traditional DAW? It certainly still has it’s place and some may prefer the desktop varieties while others are able to get their needs met with their iOS counterparts.

    There are other people as @McD mentioned who are players with little to no interest in creating polished songs to distribute to the public.

    Furthermore, some people would rather invest their time and money to create their own music rather than consume other people’s music.

    I have no idea how large these various groups of people are. I leave those investigations and concerns to other people with an interest in them to figure out.

  • Well written, @McD
    Maybe close this and look forward?

  • Whole thing handled really badly.....from all sides. But c’mon. Humans are flawed. Embrace it or lock jello horns and suffer threads like these....

    Ban the (ignore) button!

    Or at least offer a ‘auto-ignore all users that use the ignore button’ setting too ;)

  • A long time ago I suggested having an ignore feature and it was robustly rejected by both Sebastian and Michael. I have since watched all the people I would have used it on either get themselves banned or leave of their own accord. I think a moderator activated ‘Timeout’ feature would be a better solution. Fractious exchanges could be flagged by forum members and the moderator could engage ‘Timeout’ for those involved. A couple of days not being able to post would probably be enough.

  • edited April 21

    @TheOriginalPaulB said:
    A long time ago I suggested having an ignore feature and it was robustly rejected by both Sebastian and Michael. I have since watched all the people I would have used it on either get themselves banned or leave of their own accord. I think a moderator activated ‘Timeout’ feature would be a better solution. Fractious exchanges could be flagged by forum members and the moderator could engage ‘Timeout’ for those involved. A couple of days not being able to post would probably be enough.

    Guaranteed that it’ll be the loudest self-proclaimed liberals that use the ignore button ;)

  • @TheOriginalPaulB said:
    A long time ago I suggested having an ignore feature and it was robustly rejected by both Sebastian and Michael. I have since watched all the people I would have used it on either get themselves banned or leave of their own accord. I think a moderator activated ‘Timeout’ feature would be a better solution. Fractious exchanges could be flagged by forum members and the moderator could engage ‘Timeout’ for those involved. A couple of days not being able to post would probably be enough.

    Very good idea! @Michael

  • wimwim
    edited April 21

    @TheOriginalPaulB said:
    A long time ago I suggested having an ignore feature and it was robustly rejected by both Sebastian and Michael. I have since watched all the people I would have used it on either get themselves banned or leave of their own accord. I think a moderator activated ‘Timeout’ feature would be a better solution. Fractious exchanges could be flagged by forum members and the moderator could engage ‘Timeout’ for those involved. A couple of days not being able to post would probably be enough.

    There is only one moderator, Michael. I would hate to see him have to waste his time doing something so distasteful. There is already the Flag button, which you can use to notify him if you think something inappropriate needs his attention.

    I see the ignore function as a low maintenance way to avoid ugly moderation burden on our gracious host. It harms no one except those who feel everyone should care what they have to say ... and even then not really since they don’t even know they’re being ignored in the first place.

    Mod: sorry to intrude @wim, but I don’t think there is only one moderator. I am a proponent of free speech, but I am on the forum a lot. Timeouts might be a good idea.
    Certainly worth discussing. LL

  • @wim said:

    @TheOriginalPaulB said:
    A long time ago I suggested having an ignore feature and it was robustly rejected by both Sebastian and Michael. I have since watched all the people I would have used it on either get themselves banned or leave of their own accord. I think a moderator activated ‘Timeout’ feature would be a better solution. Fractious exchanges could be flagged by forum members and the moderator could engage ‘Timeout’ for those involved. A couple of days not being able to post would probably be enough.

    There is only one moderator, Michael. I would hate to see him have to waste his time doing something so distasteful. There is already the Flag button, which you can use to notify him if you think something inappropriate needs his attention.

    I see the ignore function as a low maintenance way to avoid ugly moderation burden on our gracious host. It harms no one except those who feel everyone should care what they have to say ... and even then not really since they don’t know they’re being ignored in the first place.

    Imagine if your government, family or friends took this angle. It’s a bad move imho... I’ll always listen to someone before I choose to ignore them or not.

  • edited April 21

    Well spoken @McD. Unfortunately we have all lost here. I regret someone like @jonmoore (and I have heard his music whereas most of you have not) must look at us and judge us rather intolerant as he turns and is turned away. Which, indeed, we seem to be on this occasion.

    Maybe the Easterness of it all is getting me. I need to refocus on my matzah, bitter herbs and four cups of wine.

  • I like the ignore feature. It’s well implemented too. You can still see the user you’ve ignored. If you decide you want to unignore them it’s easy to switch it off. If you just want a break from seeing some user’s post for a little while instead of having to bite your tongue, it’s an easy tool to self-manage with.

    Also, as someone else mentioned, if some users get bent out of shape with one of my posts, I’d much rather they just hit the ignore button on me rather than pick a fight. Easy-peasy for all concerned.

    I vote for keeping it. :smile:

  • @skiphunt said:
    I like the ignore feature. It’s well implemented too. You can still see the user you’ve ignored. If you decide you want to unignore them it’s easy to switch it off. If you just want a break from seeing some user’s post for a little while instead of having to bite your tongue, it’s an easy tool to self-manage with.

    Also, as someone else mentioned, if some users get bent out of shape with one of my posts, I’d much rather they just hit the ignore button on me rather than pick a fight. Easy-peasy for all concerned.

    I vote for keeping it. :smile:

    Haha! Sounds almost like the mental act of ‘choosing’ to ignore someone... do adults ‘really’ need a button for that these days?

  • edited April 21

    @wim said: I see the ignore function as a low maintenance way to avoid ugly moderation burden on our gracious host. It harms no one except those who feel everyone should care what they have to say ... and even then not really since they don’t even know they’re being ignored in the first place.

    this.
    besides I silenced all the people in real life too that think their opinion is so important and that are really full of themselves. these people are probably not my friends anyway.

  • @Max23 said:

    @wim said: I see the ignore function as a low maintenance way to avoid ugly moderation burden on our gracious host. It harms no one except those who feel everyone should care what they have to say ... and even then not really since they don’t even know they’re being ignored in the first place.

    this.

    Naive.

  • edited April 21

    Back on the DAW topic. One thing I prefer using a DAW for is adding sound to video. In Logic Pro you can load up the video and scrub the timeline to place the audio where you want it. You can also do this with Auria Pro if you buy the video import IAP.

    I mostly fiddle and noodle around in the hosts like apeMatrix AUM/AB3... but if I want to work on audio to be specifically placed in a video timeline on iOS, I kinda need Auria Pro with the video import.

    I’m guessing a dev might be able to make a video player plug that loaded in one of the hosts and floated a video pane like much like an AUv3 plugin, but without a timeline to sync and position by, I don’t know how that could work.

    Of course you can do some audio mixing to your video in Lumafusion, but I’d rather keep the audio editing environment separate from the video editing.

  • "ignore" is a powerful tool. I've been using a version of it for months based upon
    "eye controls" - Jedi Mind Trick #321 -

    "These are not the words you are searching for." - DJ Obi Won Kenosha

    1. Read name and time of the comment or thread.
    2. Compare name to "List of the Ignorables"
    3. If MATCH, look to next comment or thread header.
    4. Go to 1.

    I have been able to effectively filter 5-6 offending comments without loosing the ability
    to read them later to prepare for depositions in any Slander Suits.

    Really, it's just a time saver to filter out fools and trolls. No one will know nor should they.
    Try it! Click on my Handle above. Select "Edit Profile" and choose "Ignore". Buh-bye.

    After you people writing stuff about the shit I've posted you can reverse the setting anytime to peek.

  • I suffer from OCD. The ‘ignore’ button is not an option.

  • edited April 21

    @EyeOhEss said:

    @Max23 said:

    @wim said: I see the ignore function as a low maintenance way to avoid ugly moderation burden on our gracious host. It harms no one except those who feel everyone should care what they have to say ... and even then not really since they don’t even know they’re being ignored in the first place.

    this.

    Naive.

    This isn't the United Nations. ;)
    And looking at silly arguments of people is a waste of time for Michael. His time is much better spend with writing new clever code that makes the world a better place.
    my 2 cents

    Mod: sorry to intrude Max, but, once again, Michael is not the only moderator and I am sure he would agree to a couple more to patrol the place. So @Michael's peace of mind need not be imposed upon. I actually think “ignore” is fine for those who need it, but the timeout idea may have merit as well, tho its parent child implication is embarrassing. LL

This discussion has been closed.