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A request to developers re: note naming

Hi Developers,
If you're going to have notes named (e.g. C3, B4, etc.), please, please, please have a method for allowing the user to define what Middle C is!

For anyone unaware, there is no standard for note naming. The MIDI Manufacturers Association only specifies note numbers. Here middle C is clear, it's note 60.

But when it comes to names, nothing was ever defined, so different manufacturers came up with different naming conventions.

Yamaha call middle C (note 60) C3. This comes from their originally using 61 note keyboards where middle C was the third C on the keyboard. It gives the full 128 note MIDI range of C-2 to G8. A bit odd, but, it's probably the most common naming convention; it’s what most apps seem to use (modstep, Garageband, Senode, BeatMaker 3, Infinite Looper, Audio Damage apps etc.) As well as Ableton, Arturia, Novation, DSI, etc.

Roland used C4 for middle C, so the full MIDI range is C-1 to G9. There are several apps that use this too (AUM, Xynthesizr, MIDIFlow), but it is probably slightly less common than C3 in the software world (but with Roland and Korg, just as common in hardware?).

Some people propose C5 as this relates to the MIDI Spec / programmer method of counting from 0 (so a full range of C0 - G10), but I don’t think I’ve ever seen it used in commercial products (note: you might think apeMatrix is one such app as the keyboard starts at C0, but this note is actually the 13th note; you don't have access to the lowest octave).

And then there's middle C as C6. This comes from C1 to G11, using common counting starting from 1, not 0. There is, actually, one app that uses this: Fugue Machine.

All of this means that trying to get stuff to work together can be very confusing.

Developers, please have a method of switching between what middle C is named! C3 and C4 are, by far, the most common, so all that is really needed. However, ideally, there would be a setting for note numbers as well; as numbers are probably the most useful when setting up triggers.

Thank you!

Comments

  • @aplourde from 0 (so a full range of C0 - G10), but I don’t think I’ve ever seen it used in commercial products

    Xequence uses this convention and it's of course the best ;) (seriously, starting to count indices from 0 is the most sensible method, inside and outside of programming!).

    But your post has inspired me to finally include an option to set the number of the lowest octave in Xequence's settings :) next update...

  • edited December 2018

    This one is real MIDI standard definition for note names / numbering. According MIDI standard note 0 is C-2

    Also based on this table, expected root frequency for MIDI note C-2 (0) is 8.18 Hz

    http://www.inspiredacoustics.com/en/MIDI_note_numbers_and_center_frequencies

  • @dendy said:
    This one is real MIDI standard definition for note names / numbering. According MIDI standard note 0 is C-2

    Also based on this table, expected root frequency for MIDI note C-2 (0) is 8.18 Hz

    http://www.inspiredacoustics.com/en/MIDI_note_numbers_and_center_frequencies

    Hi Dendy,
    Actually, the chart you posted shows C-2 to G8 (so middle C as C3), but the article you linked to shows C-1 to G9 (so middle C as C4)!

    You might be misinterpreting what is written in the article: "The following table summarizes the MIDI note numbers as defined in the MIDI standard and matched to the Middle C (note number 60) as C4."

    That's two separate clauses:
    1- "The following table summarizes the MIDI note numbers as defined in the MIDI standard " this is correct; MIDI is spec'd from note 0 to 127.
    2- "and matched to the Middle C (note number 60) as C4." this is arbitrary on the part of the author.

    But as noted the KMI chart above shows middle C as C3.


    See this post on the MMA site: https://www.midi.org/forum/830-midi-octave-and-note-numbering-standard#reply-1086

    MIDI only defines the number. The naming is arbitrary and hence the confusion.

  • @SevenSystems said:

    @aplourde from 0 (so a full range of C0 - G10), but I don’t think I’ve ever seen it used in commercial products

    Xequence uses this convention and it's of course the best ;) (seriously, starting to count indices from 0 is the most sensible method, inside and outside of programming!).

    But your post has inspired me to finally include an option to set the number of the lowest octave in Xequence's settings :) next update...

    Yes!

    And I agree, starting from 0 does make the most sense; so it's obviously the least used ;)

  • @aplourde said:
    so it's obviously the least used ;)

    :D

  • @aplourde said:

    @SevenSystems said:

    @aplourde from 0 (so a full range of C0 - G10), but I don’t think I’ve ever seen it used in commercial products

    Xequence uses this convention and it's of course the best ;) (seriously, starting to count indices from 0 is the most sensible method, inside and outside of programming!).

    But your post has inspired me to finally include an option to set the number of the lowest octave in Xequence's settings :) next update...

    Yes!

    And I agree, starting from 0 does make the most sense; so it's obviously the least used ;)

    We have a proverb in france saying: 'why make things simple when you can make them complicated!' :D

  • edited December 2018

    My preference is start at 0. This way you can calculate the MIDI note by multiplying the octave number times 12 plus the pitch class.

    (octave * 12) + pitch_class = midi_note_number

    That means middle C = C5.

    I think it makes the most sense.

    Patterning used to use that convention, but people got confused so I changed it to C4. Now I label it with the note name AND the note number. C4 (60).

  • @Norbert said:

    @aplourde said:

    @SevenSystems said:

    @aplourde from 0 (so a full range of C0 - G10), but I don’t think I’ve ever seen it used in commercial products

    Xequence uses this convention and it's of course the best ;) (seriously, starting to count indices from 0 is the most sensible method, inside and outside of programming!).

    But your post has inspired me to finally include an option to set the number of the lowest octave in Xequence's settings :) next update...

    Yes!

    And I agree, starting from 0 does make the most sense; so it's obviously the least used ;)

    We have a proverb in france saying: 'why make things simple when you can make them complicated!' :D

    "The nice thing about standards is that you have so many to choose from."
    Andrew S. Tanenbaum

    Also: https://xkcd.com/927/

  • @benkamen said:
    My preference is start at 0. This way you can calculate the MIDI note by multiplying the octave number times 12 plus the pitch class.

    (octave * 12) + pitch_class = midi_note_number

    That means middle C = C5.

    I think it makes the most sense.

    see above ;)

    Patterning used to use that convention, but people got confused so I changed it to C4. Now I label it with the note name AND the note number. C4 (60).

    Yeah, but that free copy of Ableton Live that comes with Patterning says middle C is C3.... :o

    But thank you for the note number - that helps!

  • @benkamen said:
    Patterning used to use that convention, but people got confused so I changed it to C4. Now I label it with the note name AND the note number. C4 (60).

    This always seemed like the simplest solution to me. Just let the user know.

  • @aplourde said:

    @Norbert said:

    @aplourde said:

    @SevenSystems said:

    @aplourde from 0 (so a full range of C0 - G10), but I don’t think I’ve ever seen it used in commercial products

    Xequence uses this convention and it's of course the best ;) (seriously, starting to count indices from 0 is the most sensible method, inside and outside of programming!).

    But your post has inspired me to finally include an option to set the number of the lowest octave in Xequence's settings :) next update...

    Yes!

    And I agree, starting from 0 does make the most sense; so it's obviously the least used ;)

    We have a proverb in france saying: 'why make things simple when you can make them complicated!' :D

    "The nice thing about standards is that you have so many to choose from."
    Andrew S. Tanenbaum

    Also: https://xkcd.com/927/

    I sometimes wonder if we'll eventually be able to communicate solely using XKCD numbers.

  • Wanted to bump this thread...

    As we're seeing so many wonderful MIDI AU and MIDI-mappable apps coming to market, I humbly ask that developers consider including ways to switch note labeling in their apps (as there is no official standard for naming, just a couple of conventions)

    For anyone who doesn’t know what the issue is, please see the first post!

    But in a nutshell:
    -MIDI Manufactures Association defines MIDI note numbers and only numbers.
    -Naming notes (e.g. C3, F#5) is arbitrary and based on conventions.
    -There are two main conventions (middle C, note 60 = C3; middle C, note 60 = C4), but neither is dominant in the market, so supporting one but not the other means confusing half of the market.
    -using note numbers is probably the best solution for setting up MIDI mapping triggers, but in a musical context, using note names is much more useful, however, with different apps using different names it can be a pain to get everything working!

    Thank you to the Devs who already support this! To the rest, please consider this!

  • @aplourde Thanks for the summary – this was one thing I debated for a while. I think I just ended up just going with whatever AUM uses, but I'll definitely consider adding user-defined middle C.

  • Has been on my roadmap for quite a while :)

  • @TonalityApp said:
    @aplourde Thanks for the summary – this was one thing I debated for a while. I think I just ended up just going with whatever AUM uses, but I'll definitely consider adding user-defined middle C.

    AUM uses C4; using that for Tonality makes sense for running in AUM, but, of course, Audiobus uses C3!

  • @SevenSystems said:
    Has been on my roadmap for quite a while :)

    Yeah, counting from zero is the most logical, sadly, we’re saddled by convention with one or two negative octaves... WTF does that even mean?!

    "Alexander, saving the world!"

  • @aplourde Finally got around to implementing this!

  • @TonalityApp said:
    @aplourde Finally got around to implementing this!

    Fantastic! Thank you!

    1 Dev down, 597 to go....

  • @SevenSystems said:
    Has been on my roadmap for quite a while :)

    @SevenSystems sorry to bother.... as I recall somewhere else we talked about how Xequence uses a different numbering to determine middle C? Was there to be an option added so that we could match up to other host that does not follow your correct protocol? 😀

  • SynthJacker had the option to select the Roland / Yamaha middle-C option from early on. For what it does, it’s kind of essential, otherwise there will be trouble importing and automapping all those samples.

  • @onerez said:

    @SevenSystems said:
    Has been on my roadmap for quite a while :)

    @SevenSystems sorry to bother.... as I recall somewhere else we talked about how Xequence uses a different numbering to determine middle C? Was there to be an option added so that we could match up to other host that does not follow your correct protocol? 😀

    ;) Yes it's definitely still planned to be added! Unfortunately I'm still struggling in a labyrinth around a different, significant feature that is currently being added (hint: it's NOT related to AU, before the hopes go up!), but base octave is still firmly on the roadmap and not in danger of falling off it anytime soon :)

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