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FAC Maxima latency within Cubasis and other AU hosts (latency compensation on iOS hosts)

I've posted this in the Cubasis Forum as well...

When using FAC Maxima in Cubasis, there’s latency, the effected/affected track is offset, and is very noticeable especially when using it on percussion tracks. I’ve gotten in touch with Fred, and he explained that it’s a host problem. He suggested I get in touch with @Lars at Cubasis about this. This is Fred's response:


This is a host “issue”, outside iPad eco every hosts support this - it is a very basic feature. I suggest you to contact steinberg (lars) about it and meanwhile you can blend the signal affected with the mix button. To be clear enough this not an issue with Maxima, some fx needs to pre process the signal, some don't. The concept of latency compensation is basically delaying other tracks to ge sure to have everything in sync.


I've blended the mix as Fred suggested, but the latency is still audible. I see no way to adjust/allow for this in Cubasis' settings. I know I can physically offset the track to allow for the latency, but it would best if that's not the only solution. I haven’t been able to use Maxima on any percussion tracks, which is the main reason I got it. I'm using an iPad Air 2, ios 12.1.1. Is this affecting any other users?

Thanks for any help...

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Comments

  • Yes, same here! i‘d like to use Maxima on almost every Drumtrack. Especially on Bassdrum it‘s a real problem because physically moving bassdrum while working in Loopmode, the first beat of the loop gets lost! Please @Lars and Steinberg, take a look at this issue. thx

  • I think this latency was noticed in BM3 as well.

  • NS2 maybe? Where's @_ki when you need him to measure something.

  • :smile: Okay, okay, i‘ll do some tests with Cubasis as i don‘t have NS2

  • @_ki said:
    :smile: Okay, okay, i‘ll do some tests with Cubasis as i don‘t have NS2

    Yes. The OP wants to understand why Cubasis adds latency. I think it's because they try to do too much and need more time to get everything working and so... "Latency".

    NS2 will try to do less and therefore do a lot more faster. Tradeoffs. Engineers get that... tradeoffs. Let's get data.

    @_ki on another thread there's a complaint about Aparillo and battery consumption. Can you help design a benchmark that different iPad users can run.

    Aparillo App benchmark for battery use from 100% to 50%.
    Power cycle the iPad
    Start Aparillo
    PRESET = INIT?
    ARP = 50% setting
    NOTE = C4
    (I just can't figure out where Sample and Hold is to let it run).

  • I've had the same thing happen in AUM. Throw maxima on a kick track and instantly the kick is off beat no matter what settings I tweak. Other times I do the same thing and this doesn't happen. It's a great plug in I just wish I could figure out why it chooses to do it sometimes.

  • Isn't the latency just a 'side effect' of how look-ahead actually works?
    I mean in order for be able to 'look ahead' there needs to be some cached data it can work on and that causes the latency...

  • _ki_ki
    edited December 2018

    Its quite normal that a maximiser, compressor or envelop follower plugin adds latency - they need to react on the incomming audio and therefore they delay their output. Often you can specify a so called look-ahead time.
    On PC DAWs there is latency compensation, each plugin can state its latency and the DAW computes how much it has to delays other tracks to stay in sync.

    The latency induced by FAC Maxima is 23 milli seconds:


    I also verified that Cubasis and Auria Pro don‘t do latency compensation when using audio tracks instead of midi tracks :/

  • edited December 2018

    .

  • @McDtracy To check for battery consumption of Apparillo, i would suggest to use of of the free drone-like presets that runs in unisono mode, maybe there is already something that also has a clocked arp running and a big reverb. Perhaps something with orbiter animation. I have the payed version and can‘t remember which presets were came with the free version.

    I managed to get a ‚hanging’ note with the standalone by pressing a key and then using the other hand to press the home-button to switch back to the homescreen :)
    You can switch between appraillo and homescreen, even change menues in aparillo and the note will continue.

    Note the battery state, let the sustained note run for 15 minutes and check the difference for the battery. My iPad Pro 10.5 lost 3%, but i don‘t use full brightnes which probably has a larger influence than the audio processing.

  • edited December 2018

    @lairdhenn said:
    I've had the same thing happen in AUM. Throw maxima on a kick track and instantly the kick is off beat no matter what settings I tweak. Other times I do the same thing and this doesn't happen. It's a great plug in I just wish I could figure out why it chooses to do it sometimes.

    As far as I know AUM supports “latency compensation”. Ohhh maybe: Have you tried resetting the transport bar after inserting Fac Maxima? And by the way if I remember properly Garage Band supports “latency compensation” as well.

  • What happens if you just freeze those late tracks, the ones with Maxima?

  • edited December 2018

    @FredAntonCorvest said:

    @lairdhenn said:
    I've had the same thing happen in AUM. Throw maxima on a kick track and instantly the kick is off beat no matter what settings I tweak. Other times I do the same thing and this doesn't happen. It's a great plug in I just wish I could figure out why it chooses to do it sometimes.

    As far as I know AUM supports “latency compensation”. Ohhh maybe: Have you tried resetting the transport bar after inserting Fac Maxima?

    And by the way if I remember properly Garage Band supports “latency compensation” as well.

    No issues here with GarageBand, AUM and Audiobus.

    No issues with DDMF NoLimit too. The only effect which don’t have lookahead compensation in those hosts is Woodpressor.

  • @CracklePot As you can see in my screenshots, i froze the tracks to see the audio waves generated by the midi drum hit.

  • _ki_ki
    edited December 2018

    AUM does indeed do latency compensation for plugins:

    .

    First test with audio tracks:


    .

    Second test with 2 Ruismaker fed by XoX



  • Auria Pro definitely has latency compensation for its native plugins (Pro L and Pro C can do lookahead) so this must be an issue with AUv3. Since AUM is able to do this correctly it seems that many of the hosts haven't implemented latency compensation correctly in their AUv3 code.

  • _ki_ki
    edited December 2018

    @j_liljedahl

    Since i also experienced sync probelms with the two Ruismaker configuration, i dug deeper and found a configuration where the bug happens:

    @lairdhenn
    Proposed workaround until this is fixed => Put the midi generators in AUM channels higher than the receivers

  • edited December 2018

    @_ki said:
    @j_liljedahl

    Since i also experienced sync probelms with the two Ruismaker configuration, i dug deeper and found a configuration where the bug happens:

    @lairdhenn
    Proposed workaround until this is fixed => Put the midi generators in AUM channels higher than the receivers

    Very interesting. So you mean that Rozeta stuff has to be on the right of sound generators? This is an odd bug. Perhaps AUM is able to indicate how to compensate audio latency via midi only when AU source is loaded first, as each AU gives latency info to the host.

  • _ki_ki
    edited December 2018

    Auria Pro does latency compensation for native plugins - even when the latency setting of the plugin is adapted (see Pro DS)

    The latency of FF Pro Q2‘s linear phase mode seems not to be acounted for (i don‘t know if Pro Q2 updates its latency value returned to the host). The AU version adds a little more latency in that mode.

    The latency of AU plugins is not accounted for in Auria Pro as shown with FAC Maxima in my first posting.

  • edited December 2018

    @_ki said:
    AUM does indeed do latency compensation for plugins:

    .

    First test with audio tracks:


    .

    Second test with 2 Ruismaker fed by XoX



    Nice tests! Please PM me if you want to join my TestFlight team :)

  • @Janosax said:
    Very interesting. So you mean that Rozeta stuff has to be on the right of sound generators? This is an odd bug. Perhaps AUM is able to indicate how to compensate audio latency via midi only when AU source is loaded first, as each AU gives latency info to the host.

    In the case where the bug happens, there ahould be no latency compensation needed at all, there is no AU effects plugin that could delay the signal. Its the midi data that arrives too late, whatever the reason is. If Xox is right of the Ripplemakers, all is in sync as shown in the screenshots of the latency compensation test with the four waveforms - it does not epend on the AUs itself, just the order.

  • @_ki said:
    The latency of AU plugins is not accounted for in Auria Pro as shown with FAC Maxima in my first posting.

    Yes, that's what your test shows, quite clearly. I'll go and confirm your bug report on the Auria forum - thanks for digging into this so thoroughly.

  • _ki_ki
    edited December 2018

    @richardyot I already did, even with a modified image for Auria Pro :) Also added the image for the FF Pro Q2 native quirk.

    .

    And i posted an image on the Cubasis forum in @musikeer thread, but it‘s not yet approved.

  • @_ki said:
    @richardyot I already did, even with a modified image for Auria Pro :) Also added the image for the FF Pro Q2 narive quirk.

    .

    And i posted an image on the Cubasis forum in @musikeer thread, but it‘s not yet approved.

    Yeah I saw that, I confirmed the bug and replied in your thread.

  • edited December 2018

    @_ki I know you know this but for average Joe/Jane reader:
    Midi latency/timing communication is a VERY different thing from audio (buffer) latency.
    2 completely different beasts.
    Audio latency compensation (automatic) depends on both the host and the 'plugin' dealing with the problem.
    The first has to care about it (at all and correctly), the latter has to communicate it's data appropriately to the host.
    Guessing from my own experience it's a very vague and nebulous thing in IOS.
    I haven't been able to setup multichannel things perfectly aligned in IOS yet - and I don't even have a clue about it - though I'm familiar with the topic on desktops for years.

  • _ki_ki
    edited December 2018

    ApeMatrix does not do latency compensation.I recorded its IAA ports of bus a/b in Auria Pro.

    The delay used by ApeMatrix is 34ms instead of the usual 23ms, to be shure i exchanged the a/b bus matrix assignment for a second recording.

    .

    @musikeer Could you append „and other AU hosts“ to the thread title :)

  • edited December 2018

    @_ki said:
    ApeMatrix does not do latency compensation.I recorded its IAA ports of bus a/b in Auria Pro.

    The delay used by ApeMatrix is 34ms instead of the usual 23ms, to be shure i exchanged the a/b bus matrix assignment for a second recording.

    .

    @musikeer Could you append „and other AU hosts“ to the thread title :)

    Can confirm that issue with apeMatrix. I’ll report it to apeSoft, as it can be a problem to use reliably a host without latency compensation.

  • @richardyot said:

    @_ki said:
    The latency of AU plugins is not accounted for in Auria Pro as shown with FAC Maxima in my first posting.

    Yes, that's what your test shows, quite clearly. I'll go and confirm your bug report on the Auria forum - thanks for digging into this so thoroughly.

    Thanks for reporting this to the Auria Pro forum! Do the devs actively follow the forum? If not , you might want to send a link to the forum post via their support form.

  • @espiegel123 said:

    @richardyot said:

    @_ki said:
    The latency of AU plugins is not accounted for in Auria Pro as shown with FAC Maxima in my first posting.

    Yes, that's what your test shows, quite clearly. I'll go and confirm your bug report on the Auria forum - thanks for digging into this so thoroughly.

    Thanks for reporting this to the Auria Pro forum! Do the devs actively follow the forum? If not , you might want to send a link to the forum post via their support form.

    Yes the devs follow the Auria forum, that doesn't mean every bug gets fixed though, but the more voices are added to the relevant thread the more likely it is they will notice.

  • _ki_ki
    edited December 2018

    @Janosax Implementing latency compensation for a free routing matrix configuration like ApeMatrix is a very complicated task, i have no idea if it is possible at all.

    In AUM or DAWs the path the audio may take is fixed by the way the mix-busses and sends are connected and flow to the ouput, also its fixed where the plugins are located in this path, only the send-levels may change, but not the path itself. For each of the signal path there is a defined latency compensation. Adding a new plugin with latency while playing probably results in small glitches while adjusting all the delays - i didn‘t verify that (yet)

    In ApeMatrix, the routing and leveling is free-form - with a simple touch you can dial in or remove a connection to the output and change the order of the signal flow. Each of the matrix level combinations might need another latency adjustment for its part signal parts.
    Changing latency on the fly is probably not possible without audio glitches (buffers have to be repeated when latency gets longer, or thrown away if latency gets shorter).
    Adjusting the ouput to the maximum possible latency running through all plugins would not really help with the changing latency of signal path taking a more direct way to the outputs.

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