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MPE on iOS

edited December 2017 in General App Discussion

So, who else is into MPE?

(The emerging standard, aka “MIDI Polyphonic Expression”, previously called “Multidimensional Polyphonic Expression”…)

Had seen that one (and discussed it with other Eigenharp owners). But it doesn’t have as many iOS apps as the LinnStrument recommendations.
In fact, both of them miss AC Sabre which added MPE earlier this month. (Wonder what @RUST( i )K makes of that…)

The ROLI guides are relatively useful. Not that it’s difficult to understand how to make a synth or DAW play nicely with MPE devices. But checking on these things before getting the app helps in understanding what can be done with each of them.

As for what will happen to MPE, my strange analogy is that it’s the musical equivalent of what HTML5 was before the W3C formally adopted it. It’s an incomplete analogy (like most analogies, which is part of the reason people love analogue devices), but it helps me think about the standardization process. It’s becoming a de facto standard for expressiveness in electronic music (like Ableton Link has become the de facto standard for synchronization). And it’s emerged from manufacturers themselves, as a way to solve a perceived problem. It’s not something which has been mandated from above and it’s not yet become fully ratified. It’s also a bit kludgy. But, overall, it works really well to extend MIDI into new territory.

This JUCE/ADC session helps put things in perspective:

To my mind, iOS apps can play a rather important role in the way MPE gets used, especially with those apps which act as controllers (like ThumbJam and GeoShred). In a way, you don’t need to have any kind of dedicated MPE hardware to get into this kind of expressiveness. At the same time, the fun of using a hardware controller meant for polyphonic expression is still a bit hard to convey in software on a 2D touchscreen (if the next iPad supports 3D Touch, we might get deeper support for this kind of control; really fun to use in ThumbJam, including with MPE desktop softsynths like Equator through IDAM).

So, here’s the Roger Linn list of iOS apps supporting MPE (with AC Sabre added, along with ROLI Play which just came out):

  • Air Craft: AC Sabre (iPhone controller)
  • Apple: GarageBand (Universal pseudo-DAW)
  • Christophe Duquesne: SpringSound (Universal synth, physical modelling)
  • Jesper Nordin: Gestrument (Universal controller)
  • KV331 Audio: Synthmaster Player (Universal synth, playing patches from the desktop version)
  • Moog Music: Model 15 Modular (Universal virtual modular synth), AniMoog (iPad and iPhone wavetable-like “anisotropic” synth)
  • Ngo Minh Ngoc: iFretless Bass, iFretless Brass, iFretless Sax, iFretless Guitar (Universal instrument emulation romplers)
  • One Red Dog Media: Arctic ProSynth (iPad synth, virtual analog)
  • PPG Apps: WaveGenerator, WaveMapper & Infinite (iPad wavetable synths)
  • ROLI: Seaboard 5D (Universal Equator-based synth), Noise (Universal sequencer and synth which only accepts ROLI devices EDIT: which works as an AU plugin, so also accepts other devices) , ROLI Play (Universal, introduction to the Lightpad Block)
  • Sonosaurus: ThumbJam, DrumJam (Universal samplers)
  • Wizdom Music: GeoShred, Geo Synthesizer, SampleWiz (Universal synths, physical modelling)

(So 23 apps supporting MPE in one way or another. And, depending on whether or not you count ROLI NOISE and Play, that’s between 19 and 21 expressive synths, by my count. Which is a bit more than what @Wrlds2ndBstGeoshredr counted. Maybe we define things differently?)

Most of the synths are controllers as well. Again, ThumbJam is a really neat example, as the approach to control is quite unique. A couple of them use an interface reminiscent of plucked string instruments, including iFretless Brass, for some reason. (The others are the Wizdom Music apps and some virtual instruments in GarageBand).

To me, this is the beginning a pretty healthy ecosystem.

At this point, the original Lightpad Block is still the least expensive hardware MPE controller out there, and it has special support on iOS (though some features are only available on macOS and Windows). Though it might not be the right device for most people, using that Block through Bluetooth MIDI on an iPhone or iPad is a really neat way to explore MPE.

Really wish my Eigenharp Pico could connect directly to my iOS devices, but IDAM makes it all much easier to integrate for those of us with a macOS device.

So, who else is playing with MPE on iOS devices?

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Comments

  • i do not yet have a linnstrument, but in the meanwhile i enjoy playing m15 via geoshred... enjoyable but only makes me want a linnstrument more. soon...

  • edited December 2017

    While „native“ MPE support is great of course you don‘t really need that if you use AU‘s. You can just split the midi channels. This way you even have more expression due to polyphonic FX as well.
    Or just use a different instrument per channel.....or even chords on different channels (f.e. 2 notes to channel 2, 3 notes to channel 3 etc.) due to software like Polymer (mac only sadly). The options are huge these days.
    The apps are close to useless for velocity sensitive playing but polyphonic aftertouch is working great on X, Y snd Z (3D touch) axis. But not much fun really without tactile feedback.
    But the true is my Seaboard Rise 25 is collecting dust too since in most cases MPE is not needed for me.
    I even would trade it in for an iPad maybe.
    I‘m not sure if that really takes off after all these years.
    Roli focus on consumer packs rather than improving their pro line Seaboards doesn‘t let me think that this will change.

  • I use the Seaboard Block and the Lightpad Block to play sounds in Noise.
    The first iOS DAW which I use is Cubasis. I can't get Cubasis to to play sounds with my (successfully?) connected Lighpad. No real answer from Steinberg available. See this thread in the Cubasis forum: https://www.steinberg.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=183&t=124400

    The second iOS DAW which I use, is GarageBand. Work fine with both, the Lighpad and Seaboard. But without an equivalent of the ROLI Dashboard available for iOS, the use is limited. No changing scale on the Lighpad is possible. And changing the velocity/strike sensitivity is not possible for Lightpad, neither for Seaboard. But patches often don't fit the standard sensitivity setting of the Seaboard. Therefore playing them with the ROLI controllers is not much fun.

    So I am just going on to use Noise standalone for paying fun. Plus using it with Mac/LogicPro.

  • I am experimenting with using the Seaboard Block mostly with Moog Model 15.
    I like it a lot so far!
    Apparently Zeeon will have MPE support soon - I'm looking forward to that.
    I also like the SWAM instruments in Noise.

    This is a very young concept and I am looking forward to seeing it's development.
    As with every instrument worth playing one needs to invest time.

    I hope there will be a Roli Dashboard app for IOS.

  • @wellingtonCres said:
    i do not yet have a linnstrument, but in the meanwhile i enjoy playing m15 via geoshred... enjoyable but only makes me want a linnstrument more. soon...

    I am exactly where you are. Only I'm unconvinced that the Linnstrument is "better" than the Geoshred, given that Geoshred has the xy pad. In my dream setup I fear I may need a Roli block to use as an xy pad when I control Geoshred from my Linnstrument.

    I am very disappointed that Ripplemaker lacks MPE. It's a great-sounding synth that could easily make the ios Top Five if it responded to expressive controllers.

  • @Cib said:
    While „native“ MPE support is great of course you don‘t really need that if you use AU‘s. You can just split the midi channels.

    I understand this in theory. But in practice, can it make Ripplemaker recognize Geoshred's portamentos? If so, the necessary setup to achive such manipulation is above my technical level, and is not addressed in any manual or tutorial (that I know of).

  • @kagamul said:
    Apparently Zeeon will have MPE support soon - I'm looking forward to that.

    Great news. That will cement Zeeon's place in the Top Five ios synths.

  • @Wrlds2ndBstGeoshredr said:
    Ripplemaker lacks MPE. It's a great-sounding synth that could easily make the ios Top Five if it responded to expressive controllers.

    Was just thinking about @brambos and his cool apps. As he’s among the most responsive developers out there, maybe we could get him thinking about MPE? And diverse tunings?

    Not sure what the best approach is to advocate for MPE. It‘s not about something which is needed to make expressive music using electronic instruments. But those of us who’ve been playing with some of these devices and apps, there’s something deeply satisfying about controlling multiple dimensions of sound per finger. Yes, you can theoretically hack it together with multiple instances of the same plugin (or even with different plugins). IIRC, @sonosaurus may have said something about doing a MIDI filter to enable easier support for MPE-like or full MPE functionality in apps which don’t support it natively. At some point, you can recreate just about any sound with just about any technology. But there’s something viscerally satisfying in playing MPE controllers like the LinnStrument, Continuum, Seaboard, Eigenharp, or SoundPlane. Maybe you prefer knobs, sliders, wheels, and X/Y grids. But, typically, you don’t get one per note and, even if you do, that doesn’t feel very comfortable to me.

  • GeoShred is great. I'm also getting a Seaboard Block, but I'd probably wait if all I used was iOS. It looks like with Logic Pro and the upgrade to Equator, the functionality is there. Whatever it can do in iOS is gravy until more is available.

  • @Wrlds2ndBstGeoshredr said:

    @Cib said:
    While „native“ MPE support is great of course you don‘t really need that if you use AU‘s. You can just split the midi channels.

    I understand this in theory. But in practice, can it make Ripplemaker recognize Geoshred's portamentos? If so, the necessary setup to achive such manipulation is above my technical level, and is not addressed in any manual or tutorial (that I know of).

    Easy said....normally an MPE controller like a Seaboard send out a master channel (f.e. channel 1) where you have global controls like modwheel f.e.
    Then channel 2-16 will be mono midi voices.
    Each note you play will output a different midi channel, so up to 15 in this case.
    Now you could set up 15 instances of an app, plug-in, whatever and each note will trigger it‘s own instance, modulations if each instance is set to another midi channel. Should be possible with AUM?

  • @Cib said:

    @Wrlds2ndBstGeoshredr said:

    @Cib said:
    While „native“ MPE support is great of course you don‘t really need that if you use AU‘s. You can just split the midi channels.

    I understand this in theory. But in practice, can it make Ripplemaker recognize Geoshred's portamentos? If so, the necessary setup to achive such manipulation is above my technical level, and is not addressed in any manual or tutorial (that I know of).

    Easy said....normally an MPE controller like a Seaboard send out a master channel (f.e. channel 1) where you have global controls like modwheel f.e.
    Then channel 2-16 will be mono midi voices.
    Each note you play will output a different midi channel, so up to 15 in this case.
    Now you could set up 15 instances of an app, plug-in, whatever and each note will trigger it‘s own instance, modulations if each instance is set to another midi channel. Should be possible with AUM?

    Fifteen instances is a lot of work to do just to be able to play with Geoshred and get in tune. Also, Ripplemaker lacks a fine tune knob, and is difficult to tune. It would be so much better if @brambos would simply implement MPE and a user-defined tuning. I love, love, love this synth, and am only criticizing because I want it to be even better. So long as it cannot be played by the most expressive controllers, it feels crippled to me.

  • I have seaboard block and lightpad block. seaboard block is amazing. not only is it very portable but I couldn't imagine not being able to vibrato on individual keys anymore. conventional keyboard has nothing in comparison. I believe you can change the scale on LP block by loading the particular setup onto it from the dashboard

  • I should have my first video with the Seaboard Block out today or tomorrow but so far I like it a lot, it’s takes a bit of getting use to but once I was in the swing of things it was a very enjoyable experience, particularly with the Noise App, which keeps getting updated with more functionality, I must say it actually felt different to how I thought it would, also the sensitivity is incredible. It was also a blast with Geo Shred and a piece of cake to set that up.

    This one was a Christmas present so I think I may save up and get another so I can have four octaves rather than too

  • I don't really understand most of stuff from this thread. But do we have a thread for general discussion of... let's say, i come from guitar background and i nearly hate piano-like controllers. Give me grids or something - launchpad, tenori-on, geoshred, c-thru axis etc. etc.

  • There is a new synth app by a well known developer I’m on the beta for coming out soon that has MPE baked in out of the box, so it’s catching on slowly.

  • I use the seaboard and I just love it. For 2018 I hope more synths will implement MPE

  • @Wrlds2ndBstGeoshredr said:

    @Cib said:

    @Wrlds2ndBstGeoshredr said:

    @Cib said:
    While „native“ MPE support is great of course you don‘t really need that if you use AU‘s. You can just split the midi channels.

    I understand this in theory. But in practice, can it make Ripplemaker recognize Geoshred's portamentos? If so, the necessary setup to achive such manipulation is above my technical level, and is not addressed in any manual or tutorial (that I know of).

    Easy said....normally an MPE controller like a Seaboard send out a master channel (f.e. channel 1) where you have global controls like modwheel f.e.
    Then channel 2-16 will be mono midi voices.
    Each note you play will output a different midi channel, so up to 15 in this case.
    Now you could set up 15 instances of an app, plug-in, whatever and each note will trigger it‘s own instance, modulations if each instance is set to another midi channel. Should be possible with AUM?

    Fifteen instances is a lot of work to do just to be able to play with Geoshred and get in tune. Also, Ripplemaker lacks a fine tune knob, and is difficult to tune. It would be so much better if @brambos would simply implement MPE and a user-defined tuning. I love, love, love this synth, and am only criticizing because I want it to be even better. So long as it cannot be played by the most expressive controllers, it feels crippled to me.

    I mean you set up a patch and then just copy it (if that works on iOS).
    You also can use just 3 or 4 etc.

  • edited December 2017

    some very expressive synth solos have been played on the Minimoog which isn't even pressure sensitive.
    Personally my most revealing listening experience where those Balkan dudes who used to fake traditional melody instruments on a Casio CZ101, not pressure sensitive either. The CZ was choosen for budget reasons (long before it became cult).
    Aside from sound it's portable size and the smaller keys contributed a lot to the CZ's popularity. Ironically it was those folks who drove prices into astronomic highs - from a former 50 upto 500 bucks. Demand exceeded available instruments as it was long out of production.

    Imho there's a lot to be learned from this approach. Those folks played (and exploited) what was available - instead of waiting for the next big thing.
    They didn't complain about a non-piano like keybed, but focussed on what it could do best.

    As a player you have to 'learn' your stuff anyway and develope some intuition.
    If this is a pressure sensitive 3d thing or an xyz-area doesn't really matter.
    You cannot handle a Roli nor TC-Data out of the blue, it takes practice and patience.
    Not discussion about which supports what controller type ;)

  • I am loving this trend and can see it really taking hold in 2018. But I am reluctant to get a Roli Block without an IOS dashboard.

  • @Telefunky said:
    some very expressive synth solos have been played on the Minimoog which isn't even pressure sensitive.
    Personally my most revealing listening experience where those Balkan dudes who used to fake traditional melody instruments on a Casio CZ101, not pressure sensitive either. The CZ was choosen for budget reasons (long before it became cult).
    Aside from sound it's portable size and the smaller keys contributed a lot to the CZ's popularity. Ironically it was those folks who drove prices into astronomic highs - from a former 50 upto 500 bucks. Demand exceeded available instruments as it was long out of production.

    Imho there's a lot to be learned from this approach. Those folks played (and exploited) what was available - instead of waiting for the next big thing.
    They didn't complain about a non-piano like keybed, but focussed on what it could do best.

    As a player you have to 'learn' your stuff anyway and develope some intuition.
    If this is a pressure sensitive 3d thing or an xyz-area doesn't really matter.
    You cannot handle a Roli nor TC-Data out of the blue, it takes practice and patience.
    Not discussion about which supports what controller type ;)

    True. That is a thing iOS devices took away from me.....i got lazy to learn that stuff. Now i learned to handle the Seaboard and it is indeed wonderful (but hard) to play. I prefer it over a normal keyboard and even use it often as normal keyboard while muscle memory click with me on this thing. It has close to a perfect mixture of a touch screen but with a lot sensitive and tactile feedback. I didn´t even know i need that so much while i was using touch screens for a while but now it´s close to impossible for me to play on a touch screen. I even can play better on a computer keyboard as midi input. Still my Seaboard software has some bugs and lacks a lot options i could imagine and i don´t see Roli interested much in it these days. I wouldn´t buy it again and tried to sell it but no one wants it even for the half price. I tried the blocks but....no way. It´s not much better than an iPhone.
    No dashboard for iOS is annoying as well.
    I think i also would prefer other brands which don´t focus on consumerism like Roger Linn.

  • @Wrlds2ndBstGeoshredr said:
    I am exactly where you are. Only I'm unconvinced that the Linnstrument is "better" than the Geoshred, given that Geoshred has the xy pad. In my dream setup I fear I may need a Roli block to use as an xy pad when I control Geoshred from my Linnstrument.

    I'm lucky enough to own an LS128 and it's pretty different from Geoshred in terms of the feel. The touch screen glass makes a big difference...

  • edited December 2017

    @lukesleepwalker said:

    @Wrlds2ndBstGeoshredr said:
    I am exactly where you are. Only I'm unconvinced that the Linnstrument is "better" than the Geoshred, given that Geoshred has the xy pad. In my dream setup I fear I may need a Roli block to use as an xy pad when I control Geoshred from my Linnstrument.

    I'm lucky enough to own an LS128 and it's pretty different from Geoshred in terms of the feel. The touch screen glass makes a big difference...

    I'm sure the Linnstrument feels much better to play, which is why I want one. But I usually play Geoshred with my right hand while manipulating the various expression controls with my left hand. I fear that I might miss this on the Linnstrument. One of my "left hand" midi CCs can map to pressure on the Linnstrument, but usually I am manipulating more than one at a time.

  • @Wrlds2ndBstGeoshredr said:

    @lukesleepwalker said:

    @Wrlds2ndBstGeoshredr said:
    I am exactly where you are. Only I'm unconvinced that the Linnstrument is "better" than the Geoshred, given that Geoshred has the xy pad. In my dream setup I fear I may need a Roli block to use as an xy pad when I control Geoshred from my Linnstrument.

    I'm lucky enough to own an LS128 and it's pretty different from Geoshred in terms of the feel. The touch screen glass makes a big difference...

    I'm sure the Linnstrument feels much better to play, which is why I want one. But I usually play Geoshred with my right hand while manipulating the various expression controls with my left hand. I fear that I might miss this on the Linnstrument. One of my "left hand" midi CCs can map to pressure on the Linnstrument, but usually I am manipulating more than one at a time.

    Yeah, you can do a split on the LS and have rows of CCs but it's nowhere near as intuitive as GS. You can also assign the bottom row to a CC but that sounds limiting to your use case. Still the LS is so nice to play... I love it.

  • @Telefunky said:
    some very expressive synth solos have been played on the Minimoog which isn't even pressure sensitive.

    Sure thing. Sounds like we’re on the same page. So, to piggyback on this point…

    Same thing happens with acoustic instruments. For instance, what you describe sounds quite a bit like the way Indian musicians appropriated the harmonium. And there’s a lot to be said about how accordions have travelled through diverse music traditions: originally as “the poor person’s piano” but eventually becoming its own thing.
    Ornette Coleman played cheap plastic saxes among other things. Once heard an episode of David Sanborn’s Night Music during which well-known Jazz musicians were playing toy instruments.
    Despite all the moaning about touchscreens not giving enough of a feel, some people are creating very neat music on iOS devices.

    So, yes, we can all get very creative with what we already have. The instrument doesn’t make the player. An experienced player using a limited instrument is likely to create something more interesting than a beginner with a professional instrument.

    But part of musicking is about the experience itself. It’s not just about producing the sounds. It’s about playing with them. It’s an embodied experience.
    Perhaps a silly example but one could think of vibrato done with LFO vs. vibrato done with a finger or lip. There are ways to vary the LFO so that it doesn’t sound robotic. And there are ways to practice vibrato by hand or lip until it’s very close to regular enough. In the end, the two ways to produce vibrato can sound pretty much the same. But they sure don’t feel the same. In some situations, the LFO will be much more fitting and quite enjoyable. In other cases, it’s more pleasurable to use your lip or finger to control pitch movement.

    To me, a big part of the situation with electronic instrument comes from the fact that the keyboard is the centre of this universe. Sure, there are many other methods to control electronic instruments, from CV and sequencers to drumpads and MIDI harmonicas. But some of us feel limited with existing keyboards for diverse reasons. Some of these come from the fact that we’re not keyboardists, so we have to adapt everything to fit out non-keyboard ways.
    But keyboardists like Roland Lamb have their own reasons for feeling constrained. Sure, they can use wheels, knobs, sliders, pedals, breath controllers, and other sensors (dancemat, Leap Motion, joystick, Kinect, photosensors…) to make their music more expressive. They can even use Pure Data, Reaktor, or Max to introduce expressiveness in unexpected ways. In the end, the result can be incredibly neat. But the visceral enjoyment of musicking in a way which suits you doesn’t always translate in the sound itself.
    There’s a reason pianists may talk about a keyboard’s “action”. On a sax, we have a lot to say about the way a given instrument responds. Could probably do a decent job playing a student Yamaha or Jupiter sax, but my Selmer Mark VI feels so much better.

    To go back to the topic of MPE, though, it sounds to me like there might be a bit of confusion as to what it does. It’s not just about having a polyphonic instrument which can do some expressive stuff. It’s specifically about letting each voice have its own channel, with all the control this implies. Sure, you can use knobs while playing any MIDI keyboard. But those knobs typically affect the whole sound. What MPE allows is something akin to having XY pads on each key. Again, you can probably have the same effect without using devices which officially support MPE. But once you do start playing with MPE, you may start hearing your own musicking in new ways. Again, even something as simple as opening the filter on one note while sliding the pitch of another note and adding distortion to a third one is just plain fun to play. To me, it’s about pure, unadulterated pleasure.

    (Had my nephew try my Lightpad Block, today. He really enjoyed the feel and his own pleasure was communicative. He also enjoyed many other things during the time we spent musicking together. But that moment of joy said as much about the reasoning behind MPE than all of these words we need to type to have any idea as to what other people are feeling.)

  • @Enkerli said:
    Sure, there are many other methods to control What MPE allows is something akin to having XY pads on each key. Again, you can probably have the same effect without using devices which officially support MPE. But once you do start playing with MPE, you may start hearing your own musicking in new ways. Again, even something as simple as opening the filter on one note while sliding the pitch of another note and adding distortion to a third one is just plain fun to play. To me, it’s about pure, unadulterated pleasure.

    What MPE instruments do you use to achieve this?

  • @Wrlds2ndBstGeoshredr said:

    @Enkerli said:
    as opening the filter on one note while sliding the pitch of another note and adding distortion to a third one is just plain fun to play. To me, it’s about pure, unadulterated pleasure.

    What MPE instruments do you use to achieve this?

    Eigenart Pico with Equator.

  • edited December 2017

    What about this one here. Anyone own/tried one of these?
    Looks almost like a combo of an iPad, Seaboard, Linnstrument and an alien ship.

  • @Cib said:
    What about this one here. Anyone own/tried one of these?
    Looks almost like a combo of an iPad, Seaboard, Linnstrument and an alien ship.

    Could not find no it in the Thomann shop. Probably not available yet.

  • edited December 2017

    Nope, not available yet. I’ve been keeping an eye on it intermittently. It looks nuts, but potentially pretty awesome if they get it right.

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