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3 months and NO Logic Pro 4 iPad update?!?

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Comments

  • The lack of updates probably tells us that there aren’t sufficient subscribers to address the outstanding bugs ahead of implementing the more major changes that need addressing for the long-term — which are things that will take time to implement.

    We may not have a sense till next year whether they are slowly but steadily improving it or have decided that they aren’t very interested.

  • @espiegel123 said:
    The lack of updates probably tells us that there aren’t sufficient subscribers to address the outstanding bugs ahead of implementing the more major changes that need addressing for the long-term — which are things that will take time to implement.

    We may not have a sense till next year whether they are slowly but steadily improving it or have decided that they aren’t very interested.

    I’m one of us defending Logic Pro for iPad when it’s was released and many many users here criticize LP4i big time…

    But, large amount of irritation, Apple seems pretty uninterested on their “Pro” apps on iPad…

    I have paid for a year for Logic, but, will not continue sub if this is what we get from Apple…

    Sure, in current state LP4i is pretty awesome, but, I want it to be almost 100% Logic for Mac - especially full Alchemy, full Sampler, full installation of everything from Mac Logic…

    And, of course, reworked GUI in many plugins (pretty boring on iPad)…

    Probably Apple decided that Logic for iPad will not get too much love from now…

  • @ErrkaPetti said:

    @espiegel123 said:
    The lack of updates probably tells us that there aren’t sufficient subscribers to address the outstanding bugs ahead of implementing the more major changes that need addressing for the long-term — which are things that will take time to implement.

    We may not have a sense till next year whether they are slowly but steadily improving it or have decided that they aren’t very interested.

    I’m one of us defending Logic Pro for iPad when it’s was released and many many users here criticize LP4i big time…

    But, large amount of irritation, Apple seems pretty uninterested on their “Pro” apps on iPad…

    I have paid for a year for Logic, but, will not continue sub if this is what we get from Apple…

    Sure, in current state LP4i is pretty awesome, but, I want it to be almost 100% Logic for Mac - especially full Alchemy, full Sampler, full installation of everything from Mac Logic…

    And, of course, reworked GUI in many plugins (pretty boring on iPad)…

    Probably Apple decided that Logic for iPad will not get too much love from now…

    I always respect people who are willing to change their mind! Yes, if they are losing good will from even extremely hardcore supporters like you, that’s really a bad sign.

  • iPadOS17.1 will drop next week and most likely also a new Mac Logic version (11?) to look forward to which needs to be synchronized with the iPad version so we get 'full' Sample Alchemy and Beat Cutter for the Mac and not just 'playback' versions.

    My top wishes for Logic for iPad is Files.app integration with favorite locations in the 'Browser' and Drag'n'Drop import/export of audio and midi to the 'Locations' in the Browser when it gets Files.app integration...

    The 'Files.app Slide-Over Thing' without proper preview for import is for a lack of a better word totally pathetic.

    Recording and Mono Legato for the Quick Sampler could be nice (Mono Legato is also missing in the Mac version of Quick Sampler but present in the 'Big' Sampler).

    Full support for editing Flex Pitch & Time would be nice as would transient based selection when editing audio.

    The Audio editor with an option to save a copy of the audio file could be nice.

    'Drag Handles' for setting region fade in/out/clip-level, having to use the inspector for this is meh.

    Quick access to all audio events within the project from the 'Browser'

    Midi Transform could also be quite handy to have.

    But in all fairness, it's been over 8 months since Cubasis 3 had an update...

    We'll have to wait and see where things go...

  • Even for a company as big as Apple, development times can be long. We have waited years to get Logic on the iPad, because it took Apple years to develop version 1.0

    The app came out last May, it's still very early days. It's very unlikely that features such as full Alchemy or the multi-sampler will be released this year. We need to be patient, because the development of these features is not trivial and is going to take time.

    It's not as if this is new, we've seen the same issues with all the other DAWs on the platform: improvements come slowly over time because it just takes a lot of time to add major features to a DAW. Cubasis doesn't have a tempo track, after more than a decade. NS2 never had audio tracks, Auria never had loop recording etc...

    As of today, right now, Logic is a great DAW, and IMO the best on the platform. YMMV of course, and I have no problem with that. But we need to make the best of what we have rather than constantly complain about what is lacking.

  • @richardyot said:
    Even for a company as big as Apple, development times can be long. We have waited years to get Logic on the iPad, because it took Apple years to develop version 1.0

    The app came out last May, it's still very early days. It's very unlikely that features such as full Alchemy or the multi-sampler will be released this year. We need to be patient, because the development of these features is not trivial and is going to take time.

    It's not as if this is new, we've seen the same issues with all the other DAWs on the platform: improvements come slowly over time because it just takes a lot of time to add major features to a DAW. Cubasis doesn't have a tempo track, after more than a decade. NS2 never had audio tracks, Auria never had loop recording etc...

    As of today, right now, Logic is a great DAW, and IMO the best on the platform. YMMV of course, and I have no problem with that. But we need to make the best of what we have rather than constantly complain about what is lacking.

    You’re probably right in everything you write here…

    But, regarding comparisons between companies like Apple Steinberg and WaveMachine Labs, the last company (Auria Pro) has very very limited resources, and Steinberg relatively small resources - Apple or the other hand, endless resources to develop software…

    Time will tell if Logic Pro for iPad will be an success, or, a disaster and will be taken out of production…

  • @ErrkaPetti said:

    ......

    But, regarding comparisons between companies like Apple Steinberg and WaveMachine Labs, the last company (Auria Pro) has very very limited resources, and Steinberg relatively small resources - Apple or the other hand, endless resources to develop software…

    Time will tell if Logic Pro for iPad will be an success, or, a disaster and will be taken out of production…

    I think it isn't helpful to think of Apple as having "endless resources" when thinking about something like Logic Pro. The market for Logic Pro is not a large one relative to what they make profit on...especially on iOS. They aren't going to throw large amounts of resources on apps that are probably going to lose money in the best case -- at least in the near-term.

    To the extent that they entered this market, the entry into the market is probably not about the short or even medium-term. I think it is likely that they don't even know to what extent they are committed and will be periodically re-evaluating their commitment. It will probably take years before we know where things are really going. A lot probably depends on whether more customers in the pro market start making use of mobile devices as adjuncts to their studios.

    There may be a future (which 10 or 15 years ago many at Apple thought would have happened by now) where the mobile/desktop/laptop distinction is blurry or non-existent and Apple wants to be well-situated when that happens. That transition has taken longer than people were thinking/hoping a decade or decade and a half ago.

    We should buy and subscribe to apps for what they can do for use today. And we shouldn't buy/subscript to apps with assumptions based on our hopes.

  • We have no idea what resources Apple have allocated to Logic on the iPad. The team might only be 3-4 people for all we know, similar to Steinberg and Cubasis.

  • @Samu said:
    iPadOS17.1 will drop next week and most likely also a new Mac Logic version (11?) to look forward to which needs to be synchronized with the iPad version so we get 'full' Sample Alchemy and Beat Cutter for the Mac and not just 'playback' versions.

    My top wishes for Logic for iPad is Files.app integration with favorite locations in the 'Browser' and Drag'n'Drop import/export of audio and midi to the 'Locations' in the Browser when it gets Files.app integration...

    The 'Files.app Slide-Over Thing' without proper preview for import is for a lack of a better word totally pathetic.

    Recording and Mono Legato for the Quick Sampler could be nice (Mono Legato is also missing in the Mac version of Quick Sampler but present in the 'Big' Sampler).

    Full support for editing Flex Pitch & Time would be nice as would transient based selection when editing audio.

    The Audio editor with an option to save a copy of the audio file could be nice.

    'Drag Handles' for setting region fade in/out/clip-level, having to use the inspector for this is meh.

    Quick access to all audio events within the project from the 'Browser'

    Midi Transform could also be quite handy to have.

    But in all fairness, it's been over 8 months since Cubasis 3 had an update...

    We'll have to wait and see where things go...

    Hey Samu, it’s interesting what you say. Have you seen/read anything about that or is it a gut feeling? I’m a bit nervous that Apple will start a subscription plan with a new version of Logic for Mac as well.
    I might just stay with the current version of Logic then.

  • ProApps team was hiring intensely over the last 18 months for “the future of creative apps” so I’m not concerned about their commitment. Logic iPad still my fav by far. but it would have been nice for the team to have some taste and enter into a conversation with customers. —

    ….. have a hunch that they are hunkered down developing a pro daw for Vision Pro shipping Day 1

  • @richardyot said:
    We have no idea what resources Apple have allocated to Logic on the iPad. The team might only be 3-4 people for all we know, similar to Steinberg and Cubasis.

    Yeah. Apple is not going to throw endless resources at something whose upside is relatively small.

  • @espiegel123 said:
    The lack of updates probably tells us that there aren’t sufficient subscribers to address the outstanding bugs ahead of implementing the more major changes that need addressing for the long-term — which are things that will take time to implement.

    We may not have a sense till next year whether they are slowly but steadily improving it or have decided that they aren’t very interested.

    I’d not make that assumption. The fact is none of us know how many subscribers they have for Logic Pro on iPadOS. One unknown thing is not the reason some other unknown thing is happening.

  • @jacou said:

    Hey Samu, it’s interesting what you say. Have you seen/read anything about that or is it a gut feeling? I’m a bit nervous that Apple will start a subscription plan with a new version of Logic for Mac as well.
    I might just stay with the current version of Logic then.

    iOS17.1/iPadOS17.1 will definitely drop next week or even later this week.
    As for Logic it's more or less a 'guess game' at the moment.

    Considering that the Mac version of Logic has 'playback only' plug-ins of Beat Cutter and Sample Alchemy it's about time the Mac version gets updated. Will it be 10.8 or 11, no one knows for sure...

  • edited October 2023

    @Samu said:
    iPadOS17.1 will drop next week and most likely also a new Mac Logic version (11?) to look forward to which needs to be synchronized with the iPad version so we get 'full' Sample Alchemy and Beat Cutter for the Mac and not just 'playback' versions.

    My top wishes for Logic for iPad is Files.app integration with favorite locations in the 'Browser' and Drag'n'Drop import/export of audio and midi to the 'Locations' in the Browser when it gets Files.app integration...

    The 'Files.app Slide-Over Thing' without proper preview for import is for a lack of a better word totally pathetic.

    Recording and Mono Legato for the Quick Sampler could be nice (Mono Legato is also missing in the Mac version of Quick Sampler but present in the 'Big' Sampler).

    Full support for editing Flex Pitch & Time would be nice as would transient based selection when editing audio.

    The Audio editor with an option to save a copy of the audio file could be nice.

    'Drag Handles' for setting region fade in/out/clip-level, having to use the inspector for this is meh.

    Quick access to all audio events within the project from the 'Browser'

    Midi Transform could also be quite handy to have.

    But in all fairness, it's been over 8 months since Cubasis 3 had an update...

    We'll have to wait and see where things go...

    I‘m much easier to please i guess

    First and most important thing to me: proper project file handling!! it‘s absolutely ridiculous that only 4(!) songs eat up a whopping 36GB of space on my ipad cause i always want to save multiple versions (including backup etc) of a song but i can only make copies of entire projects. There is ZERO „pro“ in this behavior but i admit, it‘s a great way to sell ipads with huge storage 🙄

    Constantly resizing windows like an idiot is another thing…

    Right tap everything for even the most basic tasks while having a lot of wasted space in the upper and lower task bar is „one more thing“. Let me customize it!

    Using non apple AUs can be shaky as well, dunno who to blame here. But problems occur sometimes even with the best and most trustful developer like bram or tonebooster. At least logic is quite good in restoring crashed projects.

    There was definitely more to critizise but i had a music break for a couple of weeks now.

    on the positive side: i had more fun and was way faster to do complex arrangements than with anything else on ipad

  • @espiegel123 said:

    @richardyot said:
    We have no idea what resources Apple have allocated to Logic on the iPad. The team might only be 3-4 people for all we know, similar to Steinberg and Cubasis.

    Yeah. Apple is not going to throw endless resources at something whose upside is relatively small.

    Pro apps from Apple have an extra feature that apps from other app developers - it sells extra iPads, and the extra money from iPads goes to Palo Alto…

  • @ErrkaPetti said:

    @espiegel123 said:

    @richardyot said:
    We have no idea what resources Apple have allocated to Logic on the iPad. The team might only be 3-4 people for all we know, similar to Steinberg and Cubasis.

    Yeah. Apple is not going to throw endless resources at something whose upside is relatively small.

    Pro apps from Apple have an extra feature that apps from other app developers lacks - it sells extra iPads, and the extra money from iPads goes to Palo Alto…

  • @ErrkaPetti said:

    @espiegel123 said:
    The lack of updates probably tells us that there aren’t sufficient subscribers to address the outstanding bugs ahead of implementing the more major changes that need addressing for the long-term — which are things that will take time to implement.

    We may not have a sense till next year whether they are slowly but steadily improving it or have decided that they aren’t very interested.

    I’m one of us defending Logic Pro for iPad when it’s was released and many many users here criticize LP4i big time…

    But, large amount of irritation, Apple seems pretty uninterested on their “Pro” apps on iPad…

    I have paid for a year for Logic, but, will not continue sub if this is what we get from Apple…

    Sure, in current state LP4i is pretty awesome, but, I want it to be almost 100% Logic for Mac - especially full Alchemy, full Sampler, full installation of everything from Mac Logic…

    And, of course, reworked GUI in many plugins (pretty boring on iPad)…

    Probably Apple decided that Logic for iPad will not get too much love from now…

    Appreciate you being honest on your thoughts here. I ended up not gelling with it for my own personal workflow but I do think its current incarnation is an amazing DAW. Just not for me.

    But for those of you that use and love it I sincerely hope there’s an update soon and it’s not abandoned. Especially those of you who paid big bucks for a yearly sub.

  • @Samu said:
    iPadOS17.1 will drop next week and most likely also a new Mac Logic version (11?) to look forward to which needs to be synchronized with the iPad version so we get 'full' Sample Alchemy and Beat Cutter for the Mac and not just 'playback' versions.

    My top wishes for Logic for iPad is Files.app integration with favorite locations in the 'Browser' and Drag'n'Drop import/export of audio and midi to the 'Locations' in the Browser when it gets Files.app integration...

    The 'Files.app Slide-Over Thing' without proper preview for import is for a lack of a better word totally pathetic.

    Recording and Mono Legato for the Quick Sampler could be nice (Mono Legato is also missing in the Mac version of Quick Sampler but present in the 'Big' Sampler).

    Full support for editing Flex Pitch & Time would be nice as would transient based selection when editing audio.

    The Audio editor with an option to save a copy of the audio file could be nice.

    'Drag Handles' for setting region fade in/out/clip-level, having to use the inspector for this is meh.

    Quick access to all audio events within the project from the 'Browser'

    Midi Transform could also be quite handy to have.

    But in all fairness, it's been over 8 months since Cubasis 3 had an update...

    We'll have to wait and see where things go...

    Fair enough but at least Steinberg already had a history of updating Cubasis and adding features. It would be different if LP4i had been out for a few years and already had a dozen updates but being a few months in with only one minor fix when lots of people are asking for updates or features or at least confirmation of something is not a good sign, for me personally.

    I’m a diehard C3 user, so I’m hoping to see an update there eventually to. Specifically for C4. But like with both, only time will tell. I hope the best for both of them and hope the longer time since the last C3 update means they have something big in the works. Drag to loop and tempo track would be great. And a clip launcher (not sure if Cubase has one)

  • @ErrkaPetti said:

    @espiegel123 said:

    @richardyot said:
    We have no idea what resources Apple have allocated to Logic on the iPad. The team might only be 3-4 people for all we know, similar to Steinberg and Cubasis.

    Yeah. Apple is not going to throw endless resources at something whose upside is relatively small.

    Pro apps from Apple have an extra feature that apps from other app developers - it sells extra iPads, and the extra money from iPads goes to Palo Alto…

    I understand that..but pro music sells a limited number of ipads and iphones relative to the total market and Apple will only throw resources to the extent that they think the investment will pay off with additional hardware sales..and they have much more data about this than any of us. They aren't going to throw huge resources into Logic Pro..especially if the pro market is not showing that it is dying to go mobile.

  • Apple may be waiting for the Holiday Season to begin in earnest before unleashing the latest LP4i updates which would (if they're smart) include Logic desktop GUI equivalents. That would really "wow" the masses and lead to a flurry of new subscribers who as of now are totally oblivious to the true power of IOS music production apps.

  • edited October 2023

    I think it's wayyyy to early to start talking about Apple "abandoning" Logic Pro for iPad. But I've long suspected that some of the most glaring issues with LP4i (Alchemy, Sampler, and other built-in plugin UIs) have a solution that goes beyond the bounds of just the Logic Pro software (I suspect they are using a UI framework based on UIKit SwiftUI that is not yet mature). So what might seem like a relatively simple problem (make the UI in Sculpture less ungainly) might not be possible until other teams deliver improvements to that framework. This is all, of course, pure speculation on my part.

    The good news in that scenario is that as that framework matures we will hopefully see improvements across all of the plugin UIs come quickly. Maybe such improvements will ship with iPadOS 17.1 but really if I had to guess, I'd guess WWDC '24, and they'll do a wide release of the more-mature framework for public use. If that's the case, then we're actually waiting for improvements to the Swift programming language itself vs. iPadOS. Again, this is pure speculation based on absolutely no insider knowledge.

    Other missing features will hopefully show up sooner, like sane ways of instantiating sub-channels for multi-output plugins, and better compatibility between AUv3 plugins on iPad and AU plugins on Mac. And, hopefully, the loop library and patch libraries will get filled out sooner than later. Some features may not ever make it to iPad, but again, I wouldn't take that as a sign that Apple has abandoned Logic for iPad or that they don't care about the product. I think Apple sees differentiated use cases for Logic on iPad vs. Logic for Mac, and probably expects that most LP4i users will have both (I know that's not a safe assumption in this space, but I have a sneaking suspicion that if we saw a real breakdown of who is using LP4i, members of this forum might be less represented than they think).

    The other thing to keep in mind, per other comments on this thread, is that to say "Apple cares" is not to say that Tim Cook spends even a minute thinking about Logic in an average month. He probably doesn't. From a revenue perspective this software is a tiny drop in a very big bucket, same as for Logic on desktop. I think it's probably true that there's a small but dedicated team at Apple that are putting everything they have into this product, and they care very deeply. But we shouldn't assume that they have the full force of Apple's resources behind them. I work for a large company that makes billions in revenue and has thousands of employees. But some of our products are developed and maintained by surprisingly small teams, acting more like a startup or small software shop within the context of the larger company. It is the way of the world.

    I know that doesn't sound like good news to folks in this crowd, who are understandably impatient to see LP4i reach the level of polish we're accustomed to expecting. For my part Logic is "good enough" that it has become my favorite/main workflow (with occasional diversions into AUM for quick experiments). I definitely look forward to seeing improvements, but I'll keep using it until then, and keep my expectations in check for the rate of development. Apple may be huge, but we shouldn't assume the team building Logic is any bigger than the team building Zenbeats for Roland, or Cubase/Cubasis for Steinberg, or Live/Note for Ableton, etc.

    If we're still waiting for version 1.1 two years from now, sure, it will be time to talk about whether Apple has abandoned Logic.

    Edit: Where I say "UIKit" above, I really mean "SwiftUI"

  • Thank you @mjm1138 for your well thought out insight! It’s great to hear from people with experience in similar companies or even fields? Your estimates seem very plausible.

  • @mjm1138 said:
    I think it's wayyyy to early to start talking about Apple "abandoning" Logic Pro for iPad. But I've long suspected that some of the most glaring issues with LP4i (Alchemy, Sampler, and other built-in plugin UIs) have a solution that goes beyond the bounds of just the Logic Pro software (I suspect they are using a UI framework based on UIKit that is not yet mature). So what might seem like a relatively simple problem (make the UI in Sculpture less ungainly) might not be possible until other teams deliver improvements to that framework. This is all, of course, pure speculation on my part.

    The good news in that scenario is that as that framework matures we will hopefully see improvements across all of the plugin UIs come quickly. Maybe such improvements will ship with iPadOS 17.1 but really if I had to guess, I'd guess WWDC '24, and they'll do a wide release of the more-mature framework for public use. If that's the case, then we're actually waiting for improvements to the Swift programming language itself vs. iPadOS. Again, this is pure speculation based on absolutely no insider knowledge.

    Other missing features will hopefully show up sooner, like sane ways of instantiating sub-channels for multi-output plugins, and better compatibility between AUv3 plugins on iPad and AU plugins on Mac. And, hopefully, the loop library and patch libraries will get filled out sooner than later. Some features may not ever make it to iPad, but again, I wouldn't take that as a sign that Apple has abandoned Logic for iPad or that they don't care about the product. I think Apple sees differentiated use cases for Logic on iPad vs. Logic for Mac, and probably expects that most LP4i users will have both (I know that's not a safe assumption in this space, but I have a sneaking suspicion that if we saw a real breakdown of who is using LP4i, members of this forum might be less represented than they think).

    The other thing to keep in mind, per other comments on this thread, is that to say "Apple cares" is not to say that Tim Cook spends even a minute thinking about Logic in an average month. He probably doesn't. From a revenue perspective this software is a tiny drop in a very big bucket, same as for Logic on desktop. I think it's probably true that there's a small but dedicated team at Apple that are putting everything they have into this product, and they care very deeply. But we shouldn't assume that they have the full force of Apple's resources behind them. I work for a large company that makes billions in revenue and has thousands of employees. But some of our products are developed and maintained by surprisingly small teams, acting more like a startup or small software shop within the context of the larger company. It is the way of the world.

    I know that doesn't sound like good news to folks in this crowd, who are understandably impatient to see LP4i reach the level of polish we're accustomed to expecting. For my part Logic is "good enough" that it has become my favorite/main workflow (with occasional diversions into AUM for quick experiments). I definitely look forward to seeing improvements, but I'll keep using it until then, and keep my expectations in check for the rate of development. Apple may be huge, but we shouldn't assume the team building Logic is any bigger than the team building Zenbeats for Roland, or Cubase/Cubasis for Steinberg, or Live/Note for Ableton, etc.

    If we're still waiting for version 1.1 two years from now, sure, it will be time to talk about whether Apple has abandoned Logic.

    Yes, great post, thanks for taking the time!

  • @mjm1138 said:
    I think it's wayyyy to early to start talking about Apple "abandoning" Logic Pro for iPad. But I've long suspected that some of the most glaring issues with LP4i (Alchemy, Sampler, and other built-in plugin UIs) have a solution that goes beyond the bounds of just the Logic Pro software (I suspect they are using a UI framework based on UIKit that is not yet mature). So what might seem like a relatively simple problem (make the UI in Sculpture less ungainly) might not be possible until other teams deliver improvements to that framework. This is all, of course, pure speculation on my part.

    The good news in that scenario is that as that framework matures we will hopefully see improvements across all of the plugin UIs come quickly. Maybe such improvements will ship with iPadOS 17.1 but really if I had to guess, I'd guess WWDC '24, and they'll do a wide release of the more-mature framework for public use. If that's the case, then we're actually waiting for improvements to the Swift programming language itself vs. iPadOS. Again, this is pure speculation based on absolutely no insider knowledge.

    Other missing features will hopefully show up sooner, like sane ways of instantiating sub-channels for multi-output plugins, and better compatibility between AUv3 plugins on iPad and AU plugins on Mac. And, hopefully, the loop library and patch libraries will get filled out sooner than later. Some features may not ever make it to iPad, but again, I wouldn't take that as a sign that Apple has abandoned Logic for iPad or that they don't care about the product. I think Apple sees differentiated use cases for Logic on iPad vs. Logic for Mac, and probably expects that most LP4i users will have both (I know that's not a safe assumption in this space, but I have a sneaking suspicion that if we saw a real breakdown of who is using LP4i, members of this forum might be less represented than they think).

    The other thing to keep in mind, per other comments on this thread, is that to say "Apple cares" is not to say that Tim Cook spends even a minute thinking about Logic in an average month. He probably doesn't. From a revenue perspective this software is a tiny drop in a very big bucket, same as for Logic on desktop. I think it's probably true that there's a small but dedicated team at Apple that are putting everything they have into this product, and they care very deeply. But we shouldn't assume that they have the full force of Apple's resources behind them. I work for a large company that makes billions in revenue and has thousands of employees. But some of our products are developed and maintained by surprisingly small teams, acting more like a startup or small software shop within the context of the larger company. It is the way of the world.

    I know that doesn't sound like good news to folks in this crowd, who are understandably impatient to see LP4i reach the level of polish we're accustomed to expecting. For my part Logic is "good enough" that it has become my favorite/main workflow (with occasional diversions into AUM for quick experiments). I definitely look forward to seeing improvements, but I'll keep using it until then, and keep my expectations in check for the rate of development. Apple may be huge, but we shouldn't assume the team building Logic is any bigger than the team building Zenbeats for Roland, or Cubase/Cubasis for Steinberg, or Live/Note for Ableton, etc.

    If we're still waiting for version 1.1 two years from now, sure, it will be time to talk about whether Apple has abandoned Logic.

    Well said. Personally I left LP4i because it doesn’t jive with my workflow and the way my brain works lol so I’m back with Cubasis 3 and wondering why I ever left in the first place.

    I don’t think they’ve abandoned it, but with that in mind, it wouldn’t hurt to release some kind of road map to give people at least some idea of what’s planned next or when to expect something. Even if just to keep people from assuming the worst and jumping ship.

  • @HotStrange said:

    @mjm1138 said:
    I think it's wayyyy to early to start talking about Apple "abandoning" Logic Pro for iPad. But I've long suspected that some of the most glaring issues with LP4i (Alchemy, Sampler, and other built-in plugin UIs) have a solution that goes beyond the bounds of just the Logic Pro software (I suspect they are using a UI framework based on UIKit that is not yet mature). So what might seem like a relatively simple problem (make the UI in Sculpture less ungainly) might not be possible until other teams deliver improvements to that framework. This is all, of course, pure speculation on my part.

    The good news in that scenario is that as that framework matures we will hopefully see improvements across all of the plugin UIs come quickly. Maybe such improvements will ship with iPadOS 17.1 but really if I had to guess, I'd guess WWDC '24, and they'll do a wide release of the more-mature framework for public use. If that's the case, then we're actually waiting for improvements to the Swift programming language itself vs. iPadOS. Again, this is pure speculation based on absolutely no insider knowledge.

    Other missing features will hopefully show up sooner, like sane ways of instantiating sub-channels for multi-output plugins, and better compatibility between AUv3 plugins on iPad and AU plugins on Mac. And, hopefully, the loop library and patch libraries will get filled out sooner than later. Some features may not ever make it to iPad, but again, I wouldn't take that as a sign that Apple has abandoned Logic for iPad or that they don't care about the product. I think Apple sees differentiated use cases for Logic on iPad vs. Logic for Mac, and probably expects that most LP4i users will have both (I know that's not a safe assumption in this space, but I have a sneaking suspicion that if we saw a real breakdown of who is using LP4i, members of this forum might be less represented than they think).

    The other thing to keep in mind, per other comments on this thread, is that to say "Apple cares" is not to say that Tim Cook spends even a minute thinking about Logic in an average month. He probably doesn't. From a revenue perspective this software is a tiny drop in a very big bucket, same as for Logic on desktop. I think it's probably true that there's a small but dedicated team at Apple that are putting everything they have into this product, and they care very deeply. But we shouldn't assume that they have the full force of Apple's resources behind them. I work for a large company that makes billions in revenue and has thousands of employees. But some of our products are developed and maintained by surprisingly small teams, acting more like a startup or small software shop within the context of the larger company. It is the way of the world.

    I know that doesn't sound like good news to folks in this crowd, who are understandably impatient to see LP4i reach the level of polish we're accustomed to expecting. For my part Logic is "good enough" that it has become my favorite/main workflow (with occasional diversions into AUM for quick experiments). I definitely look forward to seeing improvements, but I'll keep using it until then, and keep my expectations in check for the rate of development. Apple may be huge, but we shouldn't assume the team building Logic is any bigger than the team building Zenbeats for Roland, or Cubase/Cubasis for Steinberg, or Live/Note for Ableton, etc.

    If we're still waiting for version 1.1 two years from now, sure, it will be time to talk about whether Apple has abandoned Logic.

    Well said. Personally I left LP4i because it doesn’t jive with my workflow and the way my brain works lol so I’m back with Cubasis 3 and wondering why I ever left in the first place.

    I don’t think they’ve abandoned it, but with that in mind, it wouldn’t hurt to release some kind of road map to give people at least some idea of what’s planned next or when to expect something. Even if just to keep people from assuming the worst and jumping ship.

    That's very true. I suspect also that a lot of people here just won't like Apple or other big anonymous companies making stuff when we're used to the more personal touch of indie devs. It's nice when you send a dev feedback on an app, for example, and get a response like 'thanks, yeah I think I'm gonna add that in the next update, cheers', or whatever. Submitting feedback to Apple on the other hand is just extremely unsatisfying, with no idea whatsoever whether they're listening or what their intentions are. But, as has been mentioned many times, most of us here are really probably not even Apple's target market, same goes for Pro Tools Sketch, Ableton whatever (can't remember the name of the ableton ios app and can't be bothered checking 😂)​

  • @Gavinski said:

    @HotStrange said:

    @mjm1138 said:
    I think it's wayyyy to early to start talking about Apple "abandoning" Logic Pro for iPad. But I've long suspected that some of the most glaring issues with LP4i (Alchemy, Sampler, and other built-in plugin UIs) have a solution that goes beyond the bounds of just the Logic Pro software (I suspect they are using a UI framework based on UIKit that is not yet mature). So what might seem like a relatively simple problem (make the UI in Sculpture less ungainly) might not be possible until other teams deliver improvements to that framework. This is all, of course, pure speculation on my part.

    The good news in that scenario is that as that framework matures we will hopefully see improvements across all of the plugin UIs come quickly. Maybe such improvements will ship with iPadOS 17.1 but really if I had to guess, I'd guess WWDC '24, and they'll do a wide release of the more-mature framework for public use. If that's the case, then we're actually waiting for improvements to the Swift programming language itself vs. iPadOS. Again, this is pure speculation based on absolutely no insider knowledge.

    Other missing features will hopefully show up sooner, like sane ways of instantiating sub-channels for multi-output plugins, and better compatibility between AUv3 plugins on iPad and AU plugins on Mac. And, hopefully, the loop library and patch libraries will get filled out sooner than later. Some features may not ever make it to iPad, but again, I wouldn't take that as a sign that Apple has abandoned Logic for iPad or that they don't care about the product. I think Apple sees differentiated use cases for Logic on iPad vs. Logic for Mac, and probably expects that most LP4i users will have both (I know that's not a safe assumption in this space, but I have a sneaking suspicion that if we saw a real breakdown of who is using LP4i, members of this forum might be less represented than they think).

    The other thing to keep in mind, per other comments on this thread, is that to say "Apple cares" is not to say that Tim Cook spends even a minute thinking about Logic in an average month. He probably doesn't. From a revenue perspective this software is a tiny drop in a very big bucket, same as for Logic on desktop. I think it's probably true that there's a small but dedicated team at Apple that are putting everything they have into this product, and they care very deeply. But we shouldn't assume that they have the full force of Apple's resources behind them. I work for a large company that makes billions in revenue and has thousands of employees. But some of our products are developed and maintained by surprisingly small teams, acting more like a startup or small software shop within the context of the larger company. It is the way of the world.

    I know that doesn't sound like good news to folks in this crowd, who are understandably impatient to see LP4i reach the level of polish we're accustomed to expecting. For my part Logic is "good enough" that it has become my favorite/main workflow (with occasional diversions into AUM for quick experiments). I definitely look forward to seeing improvements, but I'll keep using it until then, and keep my expectations in check for the rate of development. Apple may be huge, but we shouldn't assume the team building Logic is any bigger than the team building Zenbeats for Roland, or Cubase/Cubasis for Steinberg, or Live/Note for Ableton, etc.

    If we're still waiting for version 1.1 two years from now, sure, it will be time to talk about whether Apple has abandoned Logic.

    Well said. Personally I left LP4i because it doesn’t jive with my workflow and the way my brain works lol so I’m back with Cubasis 3 and wondering why I ever left in the first place.

    I don’t think they’ve abandoned it, but with that in mind, it wouldn’t hurt to release some kind of road map to give people at least some idea of what’s planned next or when to expect something. Even if just to keep people from assuming the worst and jumping ship.

    That's very true. I suspect also that a lot of people here just won't like Apple or other big anonymous companies making stuff when we're used to the more personal touch of indie devs. It's nice when you send a dev feedback on an app, for example, and get a response like 'thanks, yeah I think I'm gonna add that in the next update, cheers', or whatever. Submitting feedback to Apple on the other hand is just extremely unsatisfying, with no idea whatsoever whether they're listening or what their intentions are. But, as has been mentioned many times, most of us here are really probably not even Apple's target market, same goes for Pro Tools Sketch, Ableton whatever (can't remember the name of the ableton ios app and can't be bothered checking 😂)​

    Oh yeah us iOS only guys are definitely one of the smaller demographics. Most people I know IRL use it in tandem with their desktop. Which is fair but at the same time hardcore only or mostly iOS producers aren’t an insignificant part of the user base either. So would only help to try and include us as well.

  • @mjm1138 said:
    I think it's wayyyy to early to start talking about Apple "abandoning" Logic Pro for iPad. But I've long suspected that some of the most glaring issues with LP4i (Alchemy, Sampler, and other built-in plugin UIs) have a solution that goes beyond the bounds of just the Logic Pro software (I suspect they are using a UI framework based on UIKit that is not yet mature). So what might seem like a relatively simple problem (make the UI in Sculpture less ungainly) might not be possible until other teams deliver improvements to that framework. This is all, of course, pure speculation on my part.

    The good news in that scenario is that as that framework matures we will hopefully see improvements across all of the plugin UIs come quickly. Maybe such improvements will ship with iPadOS 17.1 but really if I had to guess, I'd guess WWDC '24, and they'll do a wide release of the more-mature framework for public use. If that's the case, then we're actually waiting for improvements to the Swift programming language itself vs. iPadOS. Again, this is pure speculation based on absolutely no insider knowledge.

    SwiftUI / UIKit will never be optimized for such a specific and niche task. They already have Alchemy's own framework (Sampler, Step FX, Phat FX, etc.). Even though this is too old for touch surfaces. They are probably redesigning the whole thing. The first results of the adapted framework we can see from Sample Alchemy and Beat Breaker.

  • @Luxthor said:

    @mjm1138 said:
    I think it's wayyyy to early to start talking about Apple "abandoning" Logic Pro for iPad. But I've long suspected that some of the most glaring issues with LP4i (Alchemy, Sampler, and other built-in plugin UIs) have a solution that goes beyond the bounds of just the Logic Pro software (I suspect they are using a UI framework based on UIKit that is not yet mature). So what might seem like a relatively simple problem (make the UI in Sculpture less ungainly) might not be possible until other teams deliver improvements to that framework. This is all, of course, pure speculation on my part.

    The good news in that scenario is that as that framework matures we will hopefully see improvements across all of the plugin UIs come quickly. Maybe such improvements will ship with iPadOS 17.1 but really if I had to guess, I'd guess WWDC '24, and they'll do a wide release of the more-mature framework for public use. If that's the case, then we're actually waiting for improvements to the Swift programming language itself vs. iPadOS. Again, this is pure speculation based on absolutely no insider knowledge.

    SwiftUI / UIKit will never be optimized for such a specific and niche task. They already have Alchemy's own framework (Sampler, Step FX, Phat FX, etc.). Even though this is too old for touch surfaces. They are probably redesigning the whole thing. The first results of the adapted framework we can see from Sample Alchemy and Beat Breaker.

    I swear I saw on the WWDC '23 agenda that there was a session about SwiftUI and Apple's "pro apps", which I presume to be Logic and Final Cut, but I can't find the session on the website. Maybe the session was cut. Maybe I dreamed it 🤔. Again, I have no direct knowledge, but clearly they discarded whatever UI frameworks their legacy plugins used when they brought Logic to iPad, so I assume they're building Logic and Final Cut for iPad in SwiftUI since they're pitching it as the future of interface design. Anyway I wouldn't expect SwiftUI to be optimized for this use case specifically, but it seems like there's room for improvement with scaling of interface elements and cascading layout that would be of benefit to to all categories of software. That's at least my perception from looking at e.g. the UI for Sculpture or ES2.

  • @Gavinski said:

    @HotStrange said:

    @mjm1138 said:
    I think it's wayyyy to early to start talking about Apple "abandoning" Logic Pro for iPad. But I've long suspected that some of the most glaring issues with LP4i (Alchemy, Sampler, and other built-in plugin UIs) have a solution that goes beyond the bounds of just the Logic Pro software (I suspect they are using a UI framework based on UIKit that is not yet mature). So what might seem like a relatively simple problem (make the UI in Sculpture less ungainly) might not be possible until other teams deliver improvements to that framework. This is all, of course, pure speculation on my part.

    The good news in that scenario is that as that framework matures we will hopefully see improvements across all of the plugin UIs come quickly. Maybe such improvements will ship with iPadOS 17.1 but really if I had to guess, I'd guess WWDC '24, and they'll do a wide release of the more-mature framework for public use. If that's the case, then we're actually waiting for improvements to the Swift programming language itself vs. iPadOS. Again, this is pure speculation based on absolutely no insider knowledge.

    Other missing features will hopefully show up sooner, like sane ways of instantiating sub-channels for multi-output plugins, and better compatibility between AUv3 plugins on iPad and AU plugins on Mac. And, hopefully, the loop library and patch libraries will get filled out sooner than later. Some features may not ever make it to iPad, but again, I wouldn't take that as a sign that Apple has abandoned Logic for iPad or that they don't care about the product. I think Apple sees differentiated use cases for Logic on iPad vs. Logic for Mac, and probably expects that most LP4i users will have both (I know that's not a safe assumption in this space, but I have a sneaking suspicion that if we saw a real breakdown of who is using LP4i, members of this forum might be less represented than they think).

    The other thing to keep in mind, per other comments on this thread, is that to say "Apple cares" is not to say that Tim Cook spends even a minute thinking about Logic in an average month. He probably doesn't. From a revenue perspective this software is a tiny drop in a very big bucket, same as for Logic on desktop. I think it's probably true that there's a small but dedicated team at Apple that are putting everything they have into this product, and they care very deeply. But we shouldn't assume that they have the full force of Apple's resources behind them. I work for a large company that makes billions in revenue and has thousands of employees. But some of our products are developed and maintained by surprisingly small teams, acting more like a startup or small software shop within the context of the larger company. It is the way of the world.

    I know that doesn't sound like good news to folks in this crowd, who are understandably impatient to see LP4i reach the level of polish we're accustomed to expecting. For my part Logic is "good enough" that it has become my favorite/main workflow (with occasional diversions into AUM for quick experiments). I definitely look forward to seeing improvements, but I'll keep using it until then, and keep my expectations in check for the rate of development. Apple may be huge, but we shouldn't assume the team building Logic is any bigger than the team building Zenbeats for Roland, or Cubase/Cubasis for Steinberg, or Live/Note for Ableton, etc.

    If we're still waiting for version 1.1 two years from now, sure, it will be time to talk about whether Apple has abandoned Logic.

    Well said. Personally I left LP4i because it doesn’t jive with my workflow and the way my brain works lol so I’m back with Cubasis 3 and wondering why I ever left in the first place.

    I don’t think they’ve abandoned it, but with that in mind, it wouldn’t hurt to release some kind of road map to give people at least some idea of what’s planned next or when to expect something. Even if just to keep people from assuming the worst and jumping ship.

    That's very true. I suspect also that a lot of people here just won't like Apple or other big anonymous companies making stuff when we're used to the more personal touch of indie devs. It's nice when you send a dev feedback on an app, for example, and get a response like 'thanks, yeah I think I'm gonna add that in the next update, cheers', or whatever. Submitting feedback to Apple on the other hand is just extremely unsatisfying, with no idea whatsoever whether they're listening or what their intentions are. But, as has been mentioned many times, most of us here are really probably not even Apple's target market, same goes for Pro Tools Sketch, Ableton whatever (can't remember the name of the ableton ios app and can't be bothered checking 😂)​

    Yeah I agree with this. It's a stark contrast to see folks from the Zenbeats team, for example, engaging on these forums, while Apple presents a wall of silence. So much of Apple's "mystique" is built on announcing a gee-whiz product and then shipping it like a month later. These days though, there are so many media leaks that the big Apple presentations hardly ever contain actual surprises. Maybe it is time for them to be more public about their roadmap, but they have such a culture of controlling the flow of information and keeping secrets that it's hard to see them doing that.

  • Public roadmaps only work if you have a concrete long-term plan. Apple’s relationship to pro audio has always been somewhat whimsical…very much changing from year to year.

    I think it is quite likely that Apple is putting something out there and watching the response and will adjust the roadmap and plan based on the particular market they are trying to reach/grow.

    A public roadmap when you are trying to be agile is a mistake as it can lock you into a bad early guess about the way forward.

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