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Why i’m returning OSMOSE / NOT DISSING IT!

edited May 2023 in Hardware

Well, gosh, after waiting two years I finally got the OSMOSE, I’m returning it. The reasons are complex, but not because it is not an excellent instrument (based on the fabulous demos of folks playing it).

Here’s what I wrote to @McD…
LinearLinemanLinearLineman May 13
“I’m not dissing the instrument, I hear the great results people get with it. The Haken sound engine presets are underwhelming as they are, but if I knew what to do they probably are really good….Obviously, if you know what you’re doing wonderful stuff happens.

I’m disappointed by the wiggle side to side action. I don’t like doing it. It feels mechanical and it has to break eventually (just guessing). The aftertouch feeling is very good. You sink into a cushiony place and the additional sound emerges as opposed to the empty bottom you feel on other keyboards. I just don’t want to struggle to learn how I might or if I could program my own parameters to the sound that is produced. I generally don’t like the sound produced or can figure out how to apply it.

Two handed playing easily becomes a muddled mess with the presets (too many notes, Amadeus!) Again, it’s my feelings not the instrument. Controlling the volume as a parameter is interesting but alien to playing a piano in its sensitivity. It seems more and less sensitive at the same time!

Then there’s my needs… I really am not looking for more in mpe expression than vibrato, breath and growl. I never tried the ring I got but that can probably do it.

I had a hard time with the Seaboard because of the rubbery surface. Now I’m thinking it makes more sense. To use rattle mechanics to do something so gradual or subtle doesn’t make sense to impose on a traditional keyboard. Again, obviously, people are loving it. Also, the rise has five parameters, I think. Sliding up the key is a good one but OSMOSE can’t do it. Lol, I found myself sliding my finger up the key anyway. Damn, it should do that! You see, the ancient mechanics aren’t really adaptable enough to fulfill the MPE promise.”

Since that missive I’ve thought more deeply about my musical goals and the role of tech in it.
Here’s an anology of my thinking re OSMOSE… I’m getting a Kawai Novus10s. It’s a hybrid piano. Hybrid piano can mean a few things these days, but the Novus Is hybrid because it has a composite piano action (wood and carbon fiber parts, only Kawai offers this, Yamaha is all wood).
It’s Identical to the grand actions used in most of their grand pianos. I say most because, though this Millenium 3 action is used in EVERY Kawai grand up to the top Shigeru SK-EX there have got to be a lot of refinements as you go up the ladder, including more and more hours of regulation.

Aside from the action, the rest of the Novus is all digital, no felt hammers (but, yes, carbon fiber “hammers” that trigger optical sensors), no strings, no soundboard, no rim adding resonance.
Now, Kawai, as well as Yamaha, offer a silent version that switches over to digital by stopping the hammers before they reach the strings but trigger optical sensors. This Kawai ATX version is an acoustic Kawai baby grand with an adaptation for digital sampled piano and midi output.

Well, the ATX would give me an acoustic piano AND midi, so wouldn’t Mike Levy, in particular, WANT a real piano? The short answer is no ($5k more for a dinky 5’ baby grand aside, $30k more for a 5’5” which is a bit more piano). The reason is that, ultimately, picking the ATX over the Novus was less evolutionary technologically. My piano playing had pretty much died in the years preceding my discovery of iOS. Without that new, and musically broadening, landscape, I think I would have stopped creating. Now, to thirst after hammers and strings seemed as anachronistic as preferring a clavichord.

I’m not saying that an acoustic piano sound on a good instrument is not a thing of beauty. It is incomparable and totally capable of every musical feeling (if not vibrato, breath, growl and aftertouch). What I’m saying is that I, personally, want to evolve technologically and not cling to a past I am used to.

So, as I thought more about OSMOSE, I realized my desire (so I thought) to be able to do MPE shit on regular piano keys doesn’t work (for me. I was looking for an easy way out, but the OSMOSE doesn’t provide that. You still have to learn how to play a new instrument, but it is an instrument where (IMO and ability) you are held back by the mechanical build of the hard key and the limitation of the plastic key surface, itself, not being able to be used as an mpe parameter (maybe in the future OSMOSE will somehow be able to sensorineural a hard plastic surface, but not now).

I was very happy I bought the OSMOSE from SweetWater rather than directly. Their 30 day return policy allowed me to try it under their umbrella. Seaboard must be purchased directly and it concerns me cause there’s no telephone number or chat box.

However, Seaboard Rise2 does. Five parameters on a rubbery key surface. You absolutely have to learn to play the thing, but it seems like the mpe rewards are much greater. I will probably try one and accept that I’ll have to work at it. Even odds I’ll fail, but if I can manage it somehow, I think I, personally will enjoy it more and love that, (in my own dottering way) I am embracing the new,

Here’s a decent explanation of Seabord Rise2 features…

@GovernorSilver, I want to hear that you’re loving your OSMOSE!

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Comments

  • Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I was really curious to read your take on that.

  • I can relate to this. The additional expression available is great for single-note lines, or maybe two or three-part counterpoint. But when you have individual expression for every voice in a dense chord, it does not work as well. You want those notes to sound the same and blend together. Few people can manage to dial in perfect intonation and timbre (which are ultimately the same thing) on multiple notes simultaneously. Our brains are not equipped for that.

  • I think you have perfectly explained why these kind of instruments are problematic.

    The wiggle for vibrato technique seems like it will cause injury eventually.

  • edited May 2023

    @LinearLineman said:
    ...
    Sliding up the key is a good one but ODMOSE can’t do it. Lol, I found myself sliding my finger up the key anyway. Damn, it should do that!

    I find this quite surprising too.
    Especially since other manufacturers have done it before.
    Wasn't their goal to build the ultimate expressive controller keyboard?
    At the price asked, it should definitely support this dimension as well.

  • edited May 2023

    Interesting, detailed, and overall thoughtful post. I'll probably reread a few times to unpack some more.

    Learning and practicing ii-V-I chord progressions in minor and major keys, through 12 keys, melodic pieces of a Clifford Brown solo, etc. on a physical keyboard are all challenging enough for me without also having to be mindful of the position of each and every finger, in the Y dimension, on every key. I've never worked precise placement of each finger on top of each and every key to get Y position to a high degree of precision, like placing my index finger at 1 7/8" on the Eb key, middle finger at 2 7/16" on the E key, etc.. So even if the Osmose had Y position per key sensitivity, I would deactivate it because I simply wouldn't have the motor control to make use of it and would be distracted by sonic behaviors introduced by my lack of control over the Y dimension. I have no doubt @LinearLineman with all his years of experience and skill would have the motor control.

    X dimension control by means of moving a key side to side I can deal with. Indeed this was a selling point of Osmose for me. Having played guitar, viola, Chapman Stick, etc. this feels natural to me. I am not worried about injury from using this style of vibrato because I have already put in the time and effort to play acceptable vibrato on viola/violin and am confident I can use this technique injury-free. The technique I use involves forearm rotation, not just one finger moving and feels pretty relaxing.
    The Osmose preset programmers have set the pitch range to a conservatively small number, so that you can play chords that will not accidentally go out of tune when you apply this vibrato technique. The tradeoff is because the pitch range is so small, I can't, say do a bluesy bend from Eb all the way E by moving the Eb key to the right. That's why in Osmose videos, you see players reaching for the pitch bend slider for bluesy bends. That said you can adjust the pitch bend range on the front panel if you have that burning desire to do an Albert King flavored major 3rd bend, or play wide vibrato like some Korean shaman singers I've heard.... all on one key.

    My Osmose arrived with the 1.0 firmware and instruction to download and install the latest. I was unable to install the latest firmware because of Osmose kept complaining about unable to calibrate sensors or something. There was also some bugs like one of the C keys triggering notes 2 octaves too high and one of the E keys playing a C pitch. I can report though that Christopher Hans responded to my support request in a timely manner and sent me instructions to resolve the issue and get a more stable firmware version installed.

    I think the build quality is pretty good. The keys feel great to play, in terms of velocity, pressure, and wiggling. Some presets behaved oddly when I played minor 9th voicings or any other chord voicing with a 2nd in the middle. I then realized these were the presets with Pressure Glide activated. Without Pressure Glide enabled, you should be able to play any chord you normally play. This month's Superbooth video includes demo and explanation of Pressure Glide

    I'm not a professional keyboardist, nor do I get paid to play keyboards onstage but I think one possible issue is you can't program presets with key splits unless you use the EaganMatrix editor. I think gigging keyboardists would not want the Osmose as their primary keyboard in their rig, let alone be the sole instrument. That's why you see vids of peeps like J3PO using Osmose as a supplement to Rhodes or other conventional keyboard instrument.

  • So glad to hear your honest take on the Osmose @LinearLineman . I have tried almost every other MPE controller seeking the ultimate expressive experience and have determined that the Seaboard RISE 2 is the one for me. However, the Osmose is one I’ve not tried and has made me wonder. The lack of key slide rules it right back out again tho. Whew, you just saved me a lot of money!

  • edited May 2023

    @LinearLineman said:
    Well, gosh, after waiting two years I finally got the OSMOSE, I’m returning it. The reasons are complex, but not because it is not an excellent instrument (based on the fabulous demos of folks playing it).

    Here’s what I wrote to @McD…
    LinearLinemanLinearLineman May 13
    “I’m not dissing the instrument, I hear the great results people get with it. The Haken sound engine presets are underwhelming as they are, but if I knew what to do they probably are really good….Obviously, if you know what you’re doing wonderful stuff happens.

    I’m disappointed by the wiggle side to side action. I don’t like doing it. It feels mechanical and it has to break eventually (just guessing). The aftertouch feeling is very good. You sink into a cushiony place and the additional sound emerges as opposed to the empty bottom you feel on other keyboards. I just don’t want to struggle to learn how I might or if I could program my own parameters to the sound that is produced. I generally don’t like the sound produced or can figure out how to apply it.

    Two handed playing easily becomes a muddled mess with the presets (too many notes, Amadeus!) Again, it’s my feelings not the instrument. Controlling the volume as a parameter is interesting but alien to playing a piano in its sensitivity. It seems more and less sensitive at the same time!

    Then there’s my needs… I really am not looking for more in mpe expression than vibrato, breath and growl. I never tried the ring I got but that can probably do it.

    I had a hard time with the Seaboard because of the rubbery surface. Now I’m thinking it makes more sense. To use rattle mechanics to do something so gradual or subtle doesn’t make sense to impose on a traditional keyboard. Again, obviously, people are loving it. Also, the rise has five parameters, I think. Sliding up the key is a good one but OSMOSE can’t do it. Lol, I found myself sliding my finger up the key anyway. Damn, it should do that! You see, the ancient mechanics aren’t really adaptable enough to fulfill the MPE promise.”

    Since that missive I’ve thought more deeply about my musical goals and the role of tech in it.
    Here’s an anology of my thinking re OSMOSE… I’m getting a Kawai Novus10s. It’s a hybrid piano. Hybrid piano can mean a few things these days, but the Novus Is hybrid because it has a composite piano action (wood and carbon fiber parts, only Kawai offers this, Yamaha is all wood).
    It’s Identical to the grand actions used in most of their grand pianos. I say most because, though this Millenium 3 action is used in EVERY Kawai grand up to the top Shigeru SK-EX there have got to be a lot of refinements as you go up the ladder, including more and more hours of regulation.

    Aside from the action, the rest of the Novus is all digital, no felt hammers (but, yes, carbon fiber “hammers” that trigger optical sensors), no strings, no soundboard, no rim adding resonance.
    Now, Kawai, as well as Yamaha, offer a silent version that switches over to digital by stopping the hammers before they reach the strings but trigger optical sensors. This Kawai ATX version is an acoustic Kawai baby grand with an adaptation for digital sampled piano and midi output.

    Well, the ATX would give me an acoustic piano AND midi, so wouldn’t Mike Levy, in particular, WANT a real piano? The short answer is no ($5k more for a dinky 5’ baby grand aside, $30k more for a 5’5” which is a bit more piano). The reason is that, ultimately, picking the ATX over the Novus was less evolutionary technologically. My piano playing had pretty much died in the years preceding my discovery of iOS. Without that new, and musically broadening, landscape, I think I would have stopped creating. Now, to thirst after hammers and strings seemed as anachronistic as preferring a clavichord.

    I’m not saying that an acoustic piano sound on a good instrument is not a thing of beauty. It is incomparable and totally capable of every musical feeling (if not vibrato, breath, growl and aftertouch). What I’m saying is that I, personally, want to evolve technologically and not cling to a past I am used to.

    So, as I thought more about OSMOSE, I realized my desire (so I thought) to be able to do MPE shit on regular piano keys doesn’t work (for me. I was looking for an easy way out, but the OSMOSE doesn’t provide that. You still have to learn how to play a new instrument, but it is an instrument where (IMO and ability) you are held back by the mechanical build of the hard key and the limitation of the plastic key surface, itself, not being able to be used as an mpe parameter (maybe in the future OSMOSE will somehow be able to sensorineural a hard plastic surface, but not now).

    However, Seaboard Rise2 does. Five parameters on a rubbery key surface. You absolutely have to learn to play the thing, but it seems like the mpe rewards are much greater. I will probably try one and accept that I’ll have to work at it. Even odds I’ll fail, but if I can manage it somehow, I think I, personally will enjoy it more and love that, (in my own dottering way) I am embracing the new,

    Here’s a decent explanation of Seabord Rise2 features…

    @GovernorSilver, I want to hear that you’re loving your OSMOSE!

    Sanjay’s videos are what made me want a Roli Seaboard and understand it better. I love my Seaboard Block. I primarily wanted it for SWAM instruments, but there is a learning curve because MPE is a new way of playing. Some artists who seemed to grasp it early on were already doing expressive movements while playing the keys before MPE 😂 such as vibrato movement.

  • Does anyone here own a Seaboard Rise. I’m concerned with repair if it breaks. Seems like you have to ship it to Roli. Is that correct?

  • edited May 2023

    @LinearLineman said:
    Does anyone here own a Seaboard Rise. I’m concerned with repair if it breaks. Seems like you have to ship it to Roli. Is that correct?

    I’ve read multiple posts that state Roli repairs have to be sent to London.

  • I tried one of the larger Seaboard models at a local shop. Looked and felt like a mattress but it felt expressive. This was a few years before the Roli bankruptcy and restructuring under the Luminary name

    Like most gear that I come across, I didn't buy it right away but filed it away in my head to contemplate for a few months. The Osmose announcement in 2019 was during this time of contemplation.

  • @LinearLineman said:
    Does anyone here own a Seaboard Rise. I’m concerned with repair if it breaks. Seems like you have to ship it to Roli. Is that correct?

    Is there a battery in the Seaboard?

  • @Montreal_Music it plugs in now. I know that was a problem.
    The form factor of the Seaboard appeals to me a lot more as I think about it. I bought a Frame tv and now considering a standing desk because they go down to 30-25 inches and would be a great keyboard stand which would double as a desk. That’s a lot of tech for a geezer.

  • Is t roli basically dead at this point? Last I hear they were purchased by Pace and/or trying to secure yet another round of funding.

    @LinearLineman the battery in the rise is not replaceable, even by Roli.
    Here’s a fun vid:

  • @AlmostAnonymous said:
    Is t roli basically dead at this point? Last I hear they were purchased by Pace and/or trying to secure yet another round of funding.

    @LinearLineman the battery in the rise is not replaceable, even by Roli.
    Here’s a fun vid:

    Ouch, that was painful and funny to watch 🤣

  • @AlmostAnonymous tge new Seaboard plugs into the wall and does have a battery. I would have it only on my studio.

  • Great review. No slide, really? That's very surprising. I'm very glad you have the chance to return this. Will you also be able to return the Roli to Sweetwater within a month if you don't like it?

    Roli's support sucked big time. I wonder if that has changed. I do like the playing surface though, and hopefully the build quality and durability on all levels is better than with the blocks. So are you saying btw that the battery is replaceable? In a piece of kit this expensive it damn well should be - yet another trend, the irreplaceable battery, unfriendly to both consumer and environment, that Apple are guilty of helping bring about with their obsessive desire for sleekness.

  • @Gavinski, unfortunately, I’ll have to buy it from Roli. I already see they don't want to easily allow you to contact them. I did find a phone number and will try to contact them tomorrow. Will let you know about the battery.

  • Thanks for sharing. Many of us were looking forward to hearing your creations on this, but I fully symphasise with your reasons for returning it. I've never been able to reliably control aftertouch on keyboard controllers so was only mildly curious about whether it could be right for me. My playing is prone to enough error as it is and I just overdub expression, growl, etc... in Cubasis afterwards using either virtual knobs or the ones on my keyboard controller.
    Looking forward to hearing where your creativity takes you next.

  • So… @Linearlineman, you won’t be sending it to me as a Birthday present?
    How about a Starbucks gift card?

  • @McD, you don’t want to be reminded of your birthday. I’m doing you a favor. Come to Savannah, I’ll take you to Ruth’s Chris.

  • @LinearLineman said:
    @McD, you don’t want to be reminded of your birthday. I’m doing you a favor. Come to Savannah, I’ll take you to Ruth’s Chris.

    Is it Mike’s Ruth’s Chris Snake House with A1 Snakesauce?

    I imagine the shipping cost to CA would push up against the limits of a gift without tax consequences.

    I’ll watch Sweetwater for a deal announcement like 10% for an open box item.

    I’m sorry it wasn’t for you. I was hoping to hear you make it sing in ways the piano keys cannot.

    Good luck with due diligence on the ROLI.

  • edited May 2023

    @LinearLineman

    thanks for the report. I would wait 6 more months before getting a seaboard or such things and see if midi 2.0 is fully released and what controllers will support it. The Kawai Novus10 will keep you busy.

    there might be a new keyboard in the works which is going to take advantage of midi 2.0.

  • Thank you for this post. It’s very useful to get a direct report of an end-user’s experience with this thing, as opposed to another marketing or “influencer” piece.

    We’ve got one on order, having missed the first-round release. We always knew that the embedded Eaganmatrix is a very eccentric instrument, and that the Osmose’s factory sound would be of very limited utility in a broader musical context. And after we get the thing, I do intend to dig in and learn Eaganmatrix programming… but our main goal for the Osmose has always been as an alternative controller. It looks like it fills a missing niche in performance control, particularly for things like SWAM instruments. We have the Seaboard, but it’s a bit weird for a trained keyboardist.

    So we’re still looking forward to it. But this post does keep our expectations in check, with is always useful when it comes to GAS.

  • It's a shame it didn't work out for you, but good you could get a refund.

    I think a lot of people that love it are more enamoured with the sensitivity of expression when it comes to the after-touch aspect, along with its pedigree as a synth. Also, the fact that it's not too much of a departure from a standard keyboard helps greatly. Of course, the other current MPE controllers being that much more non-standard likely drives many towards the OSMOSE.

    The only one I've tried is the original Seaboard RISE 49, as I own one. It's the finest instrument I've ever played. I love it, but unfortunately it's started to malfunction on me. I can understand why people don't get on with it. However, I love how it feels and love how it plays. There's definitely an adaptation period, which i imagine is a bigger hurdle if someone is much more accustomed to a traditional keyboard, than myself, but anyone at a higher-level will already understand the process of going from unfamiliarity to accomplished requires some practise.

    I'm sure all the different non-standard controllers bring their own expressive joy to the table. Would love to be able to try more of them ;)

  • I have a seaboard block and the horizontal sliding feature really adds to MPE playing.
    I was given it for doing some testing work however it is too small for serious playing, and they left off the high C which although I understand why they did that (sell more blocks to combine them) it greatly lessons the use of the block for playing.

  • Sorry you didn't get into it enough to do some recordings we could hear. I recently got a Nektar Panorama keyboard that has pretty nice aftertouch expression. Even that takes me some getting used to. Like velocity curves, it has to be scaled.

  • Listening to the demos this makes sense. It feels like every patch needs to be treated like it’s own instrument, and like it takes virtuosic technique not to sound super sloppy. Like a hard parts of both worlds cross between violin and piano. I’m sure I’d have endless fun poking at it for myself, but I don’t see how I’d come to actually make music with the osmose given my skill set and interests…

  • @ohwell said:
    Listening to the demos this makes sense. It feels like every patch needs to be treated like it’s own instrument, and like it takes virtuosic technique not to sound super sloppy. Like a hard parts of both worlds cross between violin and piano. I’m sure I’d have endless fun poking at it for myself, but I don’t see how I’d come to actually make music with the osmose given my skill set and interests…

    Yeah, music is hard. You need to practice every patch. You need to practice every piece. My problem is that I’ve taken on so many instruments and styles that I’ve never become expert at any one thing.

  • @Danny_Mammy said:
    @LinearLineman

    thanks for the report. I would wait 6 more months before getting a seaboard or such things and see if midi 2.0 is fully released and what controllers will support it. The Kawai Novus10 will keep you busy.

    there might be a new keyboard in the works which is going to take advantage of midi 2.0.

    Excellent advice… I used this thinking to avoid buying everything for close to 20 years. MIDI 2.0 specifies the ability for the hardware and the application to negotiate features.

  • @McD said:

    @Danny_Mammy said:
    @LinearLineman

    thanks for the report. I would wait 6 more months before getting a seaboard or such things and see if midi 2.0 is fully released and what controllers will support it. The Kawai Novus10 will keep you busy.

    there might be a new keyboard in the works which is going to take advantage of midi 2.0.

    Excellent advice… I used this thinking to avoid buying everything for close to 20 years. MIDI 2.0 specifies the ability for the hardware and the application to negotiate features.

    I’m waiting for now but I could be dead before midi 2.0, no?

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