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Covid discussion (was: SpaceCraft)

This discussion was created from comments split from: SpaceCraft news....
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Comments

  • Good news! Spacecraft is such a brilliant app, very performance-orientated like Borderlands. Just a wonderfully relaxing and rewarding app to noodle on and float off on a journey with.

    Would gladly pay for a new version or upgrade. Absolutely worth every penny.

    Hope Mark is doing better these days. Last time I heard from him was 2020 after his quite horrific encounter with covid shortly after mine (which I thought was bad enough, but nothing in comparison to what he experienced).

    Wishing him all the best!

  • @Spidericemidas said:

    Hope Mark is doing better these days. Last time I heard from him was 2020 after his quite horrific encounter with covid shortly after mine (which I thought was bad enough, but nothing in comparison to what he experienced).

    Always interested in this.

    Your Covid experience was with or without a vaccination.
    2020 sound like pre-vaccination, but this was probably not your time of illness.

    It was much worse than a several cold or flu?
    In how far?

    I ask because personally why contact with Delta and Omikron were not even on level of a flu and this seems to be true for all people I know.

    I would be happy if you could answer this - of course as PM, if you prefer.

    Thanks thanks!

  • edited December 2022

    @tja said:
    It was much worse than a several cold or flu?
    In how far?

    I ask because personally why contact with Delta and Omikron were not even on level of a flu and this seems to be true for all people I know.

    Not aimed at me, but I’ll chip my anecdotal ten pence worth:

    Lots of friends who were fully vacced said their experiences ranged from worse than flu, to very mild flu.

    I know of two non-vacced people here who had it - one knocked flat for weeks and now has long covid, and a young, fit rugby player - very vocal (before) anti-vaccer who ended up on life support, can now no longer walk and left with serious organ damage.

    I’ve had all my jabs, and would happily have one every few months if they were available. It’s no guarantee, but seems to help stop it from becoming too serious.

  • If I recall, Mark's very serious illness was early covid before the vaccine was made, and before there were accepted protocols for treatment. [Raising a glass to his health.]

    And SpaceCraft is indeed wonderful to work with. I kind of have no idea what I'm doing, and the sequencer is definitely peculiar, but I'll absolutely pay for an update. I find myself getting lost in it, the way I do with Samplr and Borderlands, but with those two apps the result is kind of mud, and SpaceCraft reliably gives me something usable.

    Is there any sense of when this might come out? I'm honestly just happy that it's on the road map.

  • @ExAsperis99 said:
    If I recall, Mark's very serious illness was early covid before the vaccine was made, and before there were accepted protocols for treatment. [Raising a glass to his health.]

    >

    Yeah, think it was, as was one of the non-vacced examples I mentioned.

    Glad Mark’s well enough to carry on with Spacecraft development, my most-used app - on desktop too.

  • @monz0id said:

    @tja said:
    It was much worse than a several cold or flu?
    In how far?

    I ask because personally why contact with Delta and Omikron were not even on level of a flu and this seems to be true for all people I know.

    Not aimed at me, but I’ll chip my anecdotal ten pence worth:

    Lots of friends who were fully vacced said their experiences ranged from worse than flu, to very mild flu.

    I know of two non-vacced people here who had it - one knocked flat for weeks and now has long covid, and a young, fit rugby player - very vocal (before) anti-vaccer who ended up on life support, can now no longer walk and left with serious organ damage.

    I’ve had all my jabs, and would happily have one every few months if they were available. It’s no guarantee, but seems to help stop it from becoming too serious.

    Yes as @ExAsperis99 said. I got it around the same time as Mark. First wave, in all its fresh gain of function glory. No vaccinations existed. The healthcare system was still trying to work out how best to treat it in its various stages and effects.

    Delta and Omikron variants came a long time after the initial wave. It has since, as most viruses do, become more contagious but much less potent. More like just a cold for most people now.

    I remember being in contact with Mark via emails and soundcloud around that time when we both got sick. I think we exchanged Covid stories and his was even worse and pretty frightening. Then I didn't hear from him again.

    Quite unpredictable, really. Some people had good antibody reactions to it. Some people went the other way and experienced too much of the physical reactions to it. Some people felt nothing at all even though they carried it. And obviously some people didn't survive their encounter with it. Same bug, same strain, different reactions. Everyone's different.

    From a microbiologist's pov I found it very interesting although extremely unpleasant and weird. The sickest I've ever been in my 50 years at the time. I kept a diary of the experience at the time as it was so intense and different to anything I've felt before. Felt more like how I'd imagine it feels like being attacked by a bioweapon. Took me 3 months to physically recover back to normal breathing and walking again.

  • @Spidericemidas said:

    @monz0id said:

    @tja said:
    It was much worse than a several cold or flu?
    In how far?

    I ask because personally why contact with Delta and Omikron were not even on level of a flu and this seems to be true for all people I know.

    Not aimed at me, but I’ll chip my anecdotal ten pence worth:

    Lots of friends who were fully vacced said their experiences ranged from worse than flu, to very mild flu.

    I know of two non-vacced people here who had it - one knocked flat for weeks and now has long covid, and a young, fit rugby player - very vocal (before) anti-vaccer who ended up on life support, can now no longer walk and left with serious organ damage.

    I’ve had all my jabs, and would happily have one every few months if they were available. It’s no guarantee, but seems to help stop it from becoming too serious.

    Yes as @ExAsperis99 said. I got it around the same time as Mark. First wave, in all its fresh gain of function glory. No vaccinations existed. The healthcare system was still trying to work out how best to treat it in its various stages and effects.

    Delta and Omikron variants came a long time after the initial wave. It has since, as most viruses do, become more contagious but much less potent. More like just a cold for most people now.

    I remember being in contact with Mark via emails and soundcloud around that time when we both got sick. I think we exchanged Covid stories and his was even worse and pretty frightening. Then I didn't hear from him again.

    Quite unpredictable, really. Some people had good antibody reactions to it. Some people went the other way and experienced too much of the physical reactions to it. Some people felt nothing at all even though they carried it. And obviously some people didn't survive their encounter with it. Same bug, same strain, different reactions. Everyone's different.

    From a microbiologist's pov I found it very interesting although extremely unpleasant and weird. The sickest I've ever been in my 50 years at the time. I kept a diary of the experience at the time as it was so intense and different to anything I've felt before. Felt more like how I'd imagine it feels like being attacked by a bioweapon. Took me 3 months to physically recover back to normal breathing and walking again.

    Very interesting, thanks!

    I had no exposure in the first year, only Delta and later Omikron - and yes, I never had a vaccination.
    About halve the people around me are the same and did not vaccinate, the other halve did vaccinate.

    Some of the people with vaccination had mild to severe effects from the shots.
    One even had massive effects, but still got her 5th shot ... this was very disturbing to me.
    But most seem to loose interest to get additional shots.

    As I don't trust media anymore, it is interesting to read or hear such personal stories and experiences.
    Thanks!

  • @Spidericemidas : My understanding is that the current variants are not less potent when contracted by immune-naive individuals (that is people that have never been exposed to the virus not vaccinated) and that to the immune naive the current strains are worse than the original strain -- the decline in mortality rates is not due to a decline in the viruses potency but do to the combination of: most people having been exposed to the virus via infection vaccination or both and advances in the treatment of the disease. The reduced mortality rate has lately often been-misattributed to a decline in potency. (This misattribution began during Omicron because the early hospitalization figures and mortality numbers were lower than Delta but did not take into account prior infection and vaccination).

    @tja: the data is quite clear that vaccination reduces the likelihood of hospitalization or death if one contracts COVID. It also appears to reduce the likelihood of long COVID though that is not as clear.

  • @espiegel123 said:
    @Spidericemidas : My understanding is that the current variants are not less potent when contracted by immune-naive individuals (that is people that have never been exposed to the virus not vaccinated) and that to the immune naive the current strains are worse than the original strain -- the decline in mortality rates is not due to a decline in the viruses potency but do to the combination of: most people having been exposed to the virus via infection vaccination or both and advances in the treatment of the disease. The reduced mortality rate has lately often been-misattributed to a decline in potency. (This misattribution began during Omicron because the early hospitalization figures and mortality numbers were lower than Delta but did not take into account prior infection and vaccination).

    @tja: the data is quite clear that vaccination reduces the likelihood of hospitalization or death if one contracts COVID. It also appears to reduce the likelihood of long COVID though that is not as clear.

    Really? That's very interesting. I hadn't come across that information and data. What/where is the data and source for that conclusion? As I'd be very interested to study those findings. I must admit I was not aware of any current strains being actually worse on first encounters for immune naive individuals. That's quite worrying.

  • @Spidericemidas said:

    @espiegel123 said:
    @Spidericemidas : My understanding is that the current variants are not less potent when contracted by immune-naive individuals (that is people that have never been exposed to the virus not vaccinated) and that to the immune naive the current strains are worse than the original strain -- the decline in mortality rates is not due to a decline in the viruses potency but do to the combination of: most people having been exposed to the virus via infection vaccination or both and advances in the treatment of the disease. The reduced mortality rate has lately often been-misattributed to a decline in potency. (This misattribution began during Omicron because the early hospitalization figures and mortality numbers were lower than Delta but did not take into account prior infection and vaccination).

    @tja: the data is quite clear that vaccination reduces the likelihood of hospitalization or death if one contracts COVID. It also appears to reduce the likelihood of long COVID though that is not as clear.

    Really? That's very interesting. I hadn't come across that information and data. What/where is the data and source for that conclusion? As I'd be very interested to study those findings. I must admit I was not aware of any current strains being actually worse on first encounters for immune naive individuals. That's quite worrying.

    These were articles, papers and discussions in February/March of last year (I was reading a lot of information shared by Trevor Bedford, Florian Krammer, and others) . They should be relatively easy to find. Delta was well understood by the time omicron hit to be significantly more severe than the original strain. Omicron initially seemed less severe than DELTA (not the original strain) but once there were months of data included from localities that hadn’t already had a COVID wave (or significant vaccination), the data supported the conclusion that the difference was not large and the apparent difference largely due to exposure. Recall that when Omicron hit, most in the U.S. (and Europe) had either been vaccinated or infected or both.

    But we have better treatments available and few that are immune naive. So, mortality is down.

    It was also pointed out that even if Omicron were less severe than Delta (the dominant strain at the time) , it was so much more infectious that it trumped differences in lethality when viewed from the perspective of population level impact.

    Also much discussed by evolutionary virologists was that the notion that viruses always become less lethal over time is wrong. That is conventional wisdom that has outlived data that demonstrate it not always being the case.

  • @espiegel123 said:

    @Spidericemidas said:

    @espiegel123 said:
    @Spidericemidas : My understanding is that the current variants are not less potent when contracted by immune-naive individuals (that is people that have never been exposed to the virus not vaccinated) and that to the immune naive the current strains are worse than the original strain -- the decline in mortality rates is not due to a decline in the viruses potency but do to the combination of: most people having been exposed to the virus via infection vaccination or both and advances in the treatment of the disease. The reduced mortality rate has lately often been-misattributed to a decline in potency. (This misattribution began during Omicron because the early hospitalization figures and mortality numbers were lower than Delta but did not take into account prior infection and vaccination).

    @tja: the data is quite clear that vaccination reduces the likelihood of hospitalization or death if one contracts COVID. It also appears to reduce the likelihood of long COVID though that is not as clear.

    Really? That's very interesting. I hadn't come across that information and data. What/where is the data and source for that conclusion? As I'd be very interested to study those findings. I must admit I was not aware of any current strains being actually worse on first encounters for immune naive individuals. That's quite worrying.

    These were articles, papers and discussions in February/March of last year (I was reading a lot of information shared by Trevor Bedford, Florian Krammer, and others) . They should be relatively easy to find. Delta was well understood by the time omicron hit to be significantly more severe than the original strain. Omicron initially seemed less severe than DELTA (not the original strain) but once there were months of data included from localities that hadn’t already had a COVID wave (or significant vaccination), the data supported the conclusion that the difference was not large and the apparent difference largely due to exposure. Recall that when Omicron hit, most in the U.S. (and Europe) had either been vaccinated or infected or both.

    But we have better treatments available and few that are immune naive. So, mortality is down.

    It was also pointed out that even if Omicron were less severe than Delta (the dominant strain at the time) , it was so much more infectious that it trumped differences in lethality when viewed from the perspective of population level impact.

    Also much discussed by evolutionary virologists was that the notion that viruses always become less lethal over time is wrong. That is conventional wisdom that has outlived data that demonstrate it not always being the case.

    Excellent info. Thanks for taking the time to write all that out. Much appreciated. Very interesting. I'll look for those names and articles later and do some reading.

    I got it right at the beginning in the uk and thought it was going to kill me. Then I believe it might have been the Delta variant I got a year later. Very different symptoms to the first encounter but still rather nasty. I won't go into details here as I don't really want to hijack this spacecraft thread, but when I get time I'll PM everything to you, experiences and observations and outcomes, as you might find it very interesting, if you don't mind?

    All the best, merry christmas and stay well! 👍

  • @TheVimFuego said:
    Member of the Natural Immunity Massive swings by.

    Never felt better over the last couple of years and I value my heart health in particular so I’ll be remaining that way.

    ??? Not sure what you mean but COVID infection poses massively greater risk to heart health than vaccination (which poses more or less none).

  • @espiegel123 said:

    @TheVimFuego said:
    Member of the Natural Immunity Massive swings by.

    Never felt better over the last couple of years and I value my heart health in particular so I’ll be remaining that way.

    ??? Not sure what you mean but COVID infection poses massively greater risk to heart health than vaccination (which poses more or less none).

    A problem is not a lot of the myocarditis or pericarditis as a result of vaccination was/is reported.

    I personally know a few high level athletes that had their careers ended by this.

  • @TheVimFuego said:
    Member of the Natural Immunity Massive swings by.

    Huh? Not sure what that means.

  • I know this is anecdotal and I also want to state that I have been vaccinated twice, but a very good friend of my wife’s has been in a wheelchair over a year after being vaccinated. She woke up a week after vaccination and was paralysed. It’s slowly going away and she is getting better but she’s lost nearly 2 years of her life and missed crucial years of her daughter growing up. Maybe getting covid would have been worse for her. Another good friend just finished the couch to 5k after getting long covid in the first wave. I’m Not sure. I just think we have to be careful no matter what. This is a new disease and new treatments. My heart goes out to anyone who’s been affected by either the illness or the vaccination.

  • @espiegel123 said:

    @Spidericemidas said:

    @espiegel123 said:
    @Spidericemidas : My understanding is that the current variants are not less potent when contracted by immune-naive individuals (that is people that have never been exposed to the virus not vaccinated) and that to the immune naive the current strains are worse than the original strain -- the decline in mortality rates is not due to a decline in the viruses potency but do to the combination of: most people having been exposed to the virus via infection vaccination or both and advances in the treatment of the disease. The reduced mortality rate has lately often been-misattributed to a decline in potency. (This misattribution began during Omicron because the early hospitalization figures and mortality numbers were lower than Delta but did not take into account prior infection and vaccination).

    @tja: the data is quite clear that vaccination reduces the likelihood of hospitalization or death if one contracts COVID. It also appears to reduce the likelihood of long COVID though that is not as clear.

    Really? That's very interesting. I hadn't come across that information and data. What/where is the data and source for that conclusion? As I'd be very interested to study those findings. I must admit I was not aware of any current strains being actually worse on first encounters for immune naive individuals. That's quite worrying.

    These were articles, papers and discussions in February/March of last year (I was reading a lot of information shared by Trevor Bedford, Florian Krammer, and others) . They should be relatively easy to find. Delta was well understood by the time omicron hit to be significantly more severe than the original strain. Omicron initially seemed less severe than DELTA (not the original strain) but once there were months of data included from localities that hadn’t already had a COVID wave (or significant vaccination), the data supported the conclusion that the difference was not large and the apparent difference largely due to exposure. Recall that when Omicron hit, most in the U.S. (and Europe) had either been vaccinated or infected or both.

    But we have better treatments available and few that are immune naive. So, mortality is down.

    It was also pointed out that even if Omicron were less severe than Delta (the dominant strain at the time) , it was so much more infectious that it trumped differences in lethality when viewed from the perspective of population level impact.

    Also much discussed by evolutionary virologists was that the notion that viruses always become less lethal over time is wrong. That is conventional wisdom that has outlived data that demonstrate it not always being the case.

    I could not find any of those.

    Only studies that show that Omikron is massively less dangerous than Delta, like this one:

    https://www.publichealthontario.ca/-/media/Documents/nCoV/epi/covid-19-epi-enhanced-estimates-omicron-severity-study.pdf?sc_lang=en

    This was an interesting peer study between Delta and Omikron cases.

  • tjatja
    edited December 2022

    @espiegel123 said:

    @TheVimFuego said:
    Member of the Natural Immunity Massive swings by.

    Never felt better over the last couple of years and I value my heart health in particular so I’ll be remaining that way.

    ??? Not sure what you mean but COVID infection poses massively greater risk to heart health than vaccination (which poses more or less none).

    I would love to see any evidences to this.

    I only find studies like those: https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00392-022-02129-5

  • @sevenape said:
    a very good friend of my wife’s has been in a wheelchair over a year after being vaccinated. She woke up a week after vaccination and was paralysed.

    Did the doctors say it was due to vaccination?

    Glad to hear she's on the mend. Very awful thing to go through.

  • tjatja
    edited December 2022

    @Simon said:

    @sevenape said:
    a very good friend of my wife’s has been in a wheelchair over a year after being vaccinated. She woke up a week after vaccination and was paralysed.

    Did the doctors say it was due to vaccination?

    They are not allowed to say such things, I fear.

    Anything like strobe / blood clods / heart inflammation etc. within 4 weeks after a vaccination, seems evidence enough.
    That's the regular way to monitor unwanted effects from a vaccination.

    Glad to hear she's on the mend. Very awful thing to go through.

    Yes!

  • edited December 2022

    @tja said:
    They are not allowed to say such things, I fear.

    Why not? Not allowed by whom?

  • @Simon said:

    @tja said:
    They are not allowed to say such things, I fear.

    Why not? Not allowed by whom?

    Not even sure what to answer here 😅😅😅

    In my country, medicals had massive repercussions for being critical in any sense against covid vaccinations, to the point of getting problems with their medical association or even legal problems.

    And this is true for many other areas too, for example people who lost their jobs just for asking questions or only mentioning statistical data!

    I think this should be know by all.

    And, interestingly, there where several international agreements on how to "handle" this situation and how to control information and discussion:

    https://www.societyofeditors.org/soe_news/tech-giants-agree-measures-to-tackle-vaccine-fake-news-with-uk-government/

    Some of them even are pre-covid, like this:

    https://www.ama-assn.org/press-center/press-releases/ama-urges-tech-giants-combat-vaccine-misinformation

    And then the sheer amount of channels on social media that were banned because they asked the wrong questions or wanted to get better statistical data....

    Really, you did never notice anything of this?

  • edited December 2022

    @tja said:
    Really, you did never notice anything of this?

    Both of your links were stories about social media companies agreeing not to allow mis-information about vaccinations.

    That is different to doctors not being allowed to say that there might be a rare case(s) where the vaccination causes serious problems.

    You mentioned "your country"... are you in the UK or USA? I'm on the other side of the world in Australia.

  • A test to check the vaccination efficacy, is to compare the least and most vaccinated populations and compare mortality and severe illness rates, data from the vaccine companies is somewhat mute, you could say. Yes statistics can be manipulated, take the Canadian research that correlates increased traffic accidents with anti-vax people, deeply flawed, in my opinion. Why, because people without a vaccination status confirming vaccination, would not have been allowed on public transportation, therefore more likely to be travelling via private vehicles, thus incurring more greater a chance of accident.

  • edited December 2022

    Anecdotal personal experience here, took the vaccination as soon as it was available (in the U.K. was an early vaccination due to vulnerable health status) and caught Covid in August of the same year.
    Now whilst the I’m pretty sure I was in no danger of death etc whilst ill it was the worst I’ve ever felt while infected with a virus I’d say, I’ve never felt so physically weak before in my life when simple actions such having a shower, getting out of bed, felt like climbing Mount Everest.
    Took a while to fully recover, weirdly seemed to have an issue with temperature regulation for several month post infection when I would get very hot for seemingly no reason, however that eventually seemed to wear off.
    Have since had 3 booster shots and will take any more offered as the following my experience the thought of the virus without any protection would be extremely unpleasant I’m sure.

    On a side note the vaccination effected me in a similar way to flu vaccination, sore arm and felt run down for about 24 hours.
    My girlfriend did have an allergic reaction to her second (booster) vaccination and had to take antihistamines but she is the only person I know out of all my friends and family who had any semi serious reaction.

  • Mrs Monz0id has just informed me she’s tested positive. She and the lad have been ill over Christmas, but more like mild flu symptoms than anything else, and I’ve woken up aching and with a dodgy throat/cough, so it’s pretty certain I’ve got it now too.

    Let’s see how good these vaccines are then.

  • @Simon said:

    @tja said:
    Really, you did never notice anything of this?

    Both of your links were stories about social media companies agreeing not to allow mis-information about vaccinations.

    That is different to doctors not being allowed to say that there might be a rare case(s) where the vaccination causes serious problems.

    You mentioned "your country"... are you in the UK or USA? I'm on the other side of the world in Australia.

    Official government statement about vaccine side effect reporting,
    https://www.gov.uk/drug-safety-update/yellow-card-please-help-to-reverse-the-decline-in-reporting-of-suspected-adverse-drug-reactions

  • @monz0id said:
    Mrs Monz0id has just informed me she’s tested positive. She and the lad have been ill over Christmas, but more like mild flu symptoms than anything else, and I’ve woken up aching and with a dodgy throat/cough, so it’s pretty certain I’ve got it now too.

    Let’s see how good these vaccines are then.

    The full statistics need declaring so that a full risk/benefit analysis can be made, but in short I would say anyone vulnerable or elderly should get vaccinated against Covid in the same way as against Flu.

  • edited December 2022

    Isn't this from 2018 i.e. pre COVID?

    And isn't this a Government document asking GPs, pharmacists, and hospital doctors to report suspected adverse drug reactions, not hide them?

  • Amazing how, the Murica people, eating tones of opioids, they are now super worried about the vaccine.

  • @Simon said:

    Isn't this from 2018 i.e. pre COVID?

    And isn't this a Government document asking GPs, pharmacists, and hospital doctors to report suspected adverse drug reactions, not hide them?

    You are correct, if you think it should be more up to date, I’d agree, but what’s the level of reporting?

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