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Low input gain from Audio Interface (Zedi10) on iOS 15. Help!
Hi,
I’m getting an extremely low input from my Zedi10 audio interface. Happens on AUM, Zenbeats… everywhere. I suspected it’s related to iOS15 since I didn’t have that problem before (2018 iPad Pro) so I did some tests. Luckily I have an older iPad still on iOS 14.
I’m testing 2 interfaces: Digitakt and Zedi10 (Allen & Heath) with iOS 14 and 15.
Here’s some screenshots from the recordings In Zenbeats. Same setup, 2 interfaces, 2 iPads… I switched audio interface er project and recorded into 2 separate tracks.
Here’s iOS 15:
Digitakt audio interface:
Zedi10 audio:
Here’s iOS 14:
Digitakt:
Zedi10:
As you can see the Digitakt interface input signal is consistent on both iOS versions, no change.
But the Zedi10 is considerably lower on iOS15, actually extremely low and barely usable. Again, same setup, gain, etc, on both tests.
This is a huge issue. Has anyone encountered anything similar with other interfaces?. I have no way of increasing the usb output level from the Zedi10, as you can see on the pics it’s maxing out but what is received by the iPad is ridiculously low. We’re going from around -23db to -36db. Incidentally-23db is also the level coming from the Digitakt, but that’s the same on both iOS, and I’m guessing it’s an ok level.
Can anyone help?. Cheers!.
Comments
Possibly adjustable input level in app settings? Maybe wasn't working/respected in prior iOS, and now is? I believe AUM is good about making these controls visible, so you could check there.
There’s no configurable input gain in Zenbeats, there is in AUM.
But the point is that iOS15, with the same hardware, settings, and and apps has drastically reduced the Zedi10 gain.
I contacted Allen&Heath support. Apparently in Windows you can set these levels with their control software, but that’s not an option when using as a class compliant device.
It really sucks, I need to max out everything and still get a shitty signal. To make things worse iOS apps and daws don’t usually feature a “normalize” function.
There have been other reports that give me the impression that iOS 15 sets or resets input gain on some devices…I am unclear as to whether the affected devices retain new settings if one changes the input gain via an app that gives access to it.
If you change the interface’s noir gain via AUM or Audiobus does it retain the settings if you then use another app?
I’m gonna try and let you know. But I’m either skeptical or don’t quite get it…
I would think the AUM setting (gain 50% default) would only apply to AUM, that is, on a “software/app” domain. Might it be that it’s actually changing the gain on the physical hardware interface?.
Will be right back! 🚴♂️
The answer is: you won't know until you try. I think that the reason that some people are running into issues like this have to do with how some devices' firmware responds to some initialization commands. Class-compliant drivers MAY allow input gain to be set but not all do. Whether changes to the input gain are sticky depends on the device. AUM might (I don't know) be starting with whatever the device reports as its current setting if the device responds to a query about the setting.
Out of curiosity, does the device have an input gain knob on it?
I know some interfaces have software controlled USB input/output volume.
One mixer I know (Soundcraft Notepad) set the 'USB Volume' to ZERO when connected.
This is done to avoid nasty 'pops' in speakers when connecting it to the iPad.
(The USB Output to the the mixer is controlled by system volume, ie. iOS volume control).
Some devices allow software control over the USB Input & Output levels (EVO 4 being one of them).
Honestly I can not with 100% confidence say which iOS apps support input/output level control over USB for class compliant devices, but it is a desirable feature for sure! (At least until Apple adds a proper Sound Control Panel to iOS/iPadOS).
Wow. @uncledave and @espiegel123 seems like you were on track regarding AUM and the input gain!. Although I still can’t tell why/what is going on.
Let me start by pointing out that as soon as I went to test this, even before tweaking anything, the input gain was magically higher than before. It’s got to be some sequence or order of factors. This time around (higher input gain than before) the input gain setting in AUM was at 100%. I’ll never know if it was at that before, guess next time I get low volume I’ll check…
Where you guys were absolutely right is that the AUM setting reflects in Zenbeats (to my surprise).
Here’s the recorded signal this time, with 90% and 100% gain set in AUM. Note that the input gain seems to not be linear, at 50% you get almost nothing, and the difference between 100% and 90% is about double…
The good news and big relief is that I can get a decent level!. The not so good is that I don’t yet know what’s exactly going on, seems pretty random. Next time it happens I’ll check the level in AUM and see if it has somehow changed.
Btw I’m beta testing Loopy Pro… Could it be Loopy?.
I was posting right when you did…
Yes!. And you go nuts cos you can’t hear anything!. Has happened to me a million times. I believe the Zedi10 does it aswell. After plugin and unplugging and triple checking the monitoring, half an hour later you realize the iPad volume is at zero… been there so many times I don’t fall on that one anymore.
Desirable feature ✅
Sound control panel ✅✅
This is a 'perfect' example where a System wide sound control panel is needed
Some devices allow input/output level control over USB and apparently the Zedi and Soundcraft interfaces are like that.
If Zenbeats is your primary DAW I'd suggest sending them a message asking for USB Volume Control support to be added in one of the updates. (It's missing in the Audio settings inside Zenbeats).
@tahiche : it is probably worth investigating whether Loopy Pro is unexpectedly changing the input volume. A simple test, unplug your interface from any power source. Power-cycle/hard-reset your iPad, launch Loopy Pro and use it -- adjusting or not adjusting as necessary.
Then unplug everything again, hard reset the iPad again, and launch AUM and see if the level is any different than when you first launched Loopy Pro -- or if it is set where you left it.
Hi,
Seems like Loopy Pro was setting the volume at 77%. I can’t remember changing it in Loopy, but who knows… Do you happen the “default” gain in Loopy, @espiegel123 ?.
Not only that but Loopy takes over and doesn’t let any other app (AUM) change it.
So if open up Loopy, then close it and open Zenbeats the volume was probably the one Loopy decided, which was 77%, extremely low (as I said before it’s not linear).
Like @Samu says, a central audio config is definitely needed. Seems a lot simpler than asking every app to implement gain control. I’ll post it in the Zenbeats thread.
Cheers!.
Did you try as I suggested and repeat the experiment with AUM after unplugging everything and hard resetting. The low value might be the device’s default and not something forced on it by the host.
Interesting thread. I’m having the opposite problem with a Black Lion Revolution interface, with everything coming in wayyyy too hot, like, I’m peaking with the interface gain at less than 2 o’clock. I’ll have to try these solutions. Thanks all.
Wow, so my interface sets and locks the input gain at 100%! It wasn’t doing this pre-the latest update (not sure if it was the big switch to 15 or one of the later mini-updates). Even with a reboot and setting AUM’s gain to 50% before plugging in the interface, it takes over when plugged in and goes right back up to 100%. Trying to turn it down only gives me the “another device is controlling this” message.
This is a huge problem, as I can audibly hear data transfer bleeps and bloops and so it’s unusable.
So there’s no workaround?
Don’t think I did, sorry 😣
But it seems clear that in my case some apps were changing the gain and that state remained. So Loopy set the gain at 77%, btw I didn’t post a screenshot but that was the gain setting in Loopy’s audio config, so it was loopy. Then other apps like Zenbeats don’t have their own gain management and just inherit that.
That sucks!. So your interface is locking it?. I’m obviously no expert but in that context I’d interpret that as “you can’t change this interface’s gain via an app”.
I’m very confused now as to what part iOS 15 has in this. At least in my case. My older iPad doesn’t have loopy installed…
Also it seems like a sound control center is badly needed seeing how different interfaces behave. In my case anything below 100% gain is too low.
If you didn’t test with AUM from scratch as with Loopy, how do you know Loopy set it as opposed to that is the value the interface defaults to?
Because I didn’t have problem before and because the same interface with the older iPad (no Loopy) didn’t have that gain drop.
Also, I set it to 100 on AUM and it stayed that way in Zenbeats, then opened loopy and it went to 77% like I pointed out. That’s the value that was set in Loopy. I don’t know if that 77% is Loopys default or I changed it at some point.
This is just how this device works in my experience but it's alright -- once you boost/normalise the audio back up then the quality is fine. I use 'Limiter' for live instruments to bring it up to the right level.
Many apps including Zenbeats or Loopy don’t have a “normalize” function. The gain knob in either of those (around 20db) wasn’t enough to get a decent level.
If Loopy is resetting it, you should report that to Michael.
Yeah, I guess the max gain is not the problem. I plugged in my cheapo Presonus 24c I use for MIDI and it also locks AUM input gain at 100%, and I’ve been using it for a couple years. It still behaves normally, and I can’t hear any digital distortion/data bleeps and bloops like with the Black Lion. So odd. I’ve written them but it seems like they’re gonna be leisurely about responding.
I’m no expert at all, so I wonder what the problem is? Did they not do a certain kind of shielding or something? My knowledge of electronics is like below basic level.
Can’t you lower the input gain on the Black Lion?. My problem was that the signal into the interface was hot but the output cold. Seems like your case is the opposite. If you lower the input gain wouldn’t it be compensated on the output?.
I’m confused, I actually don’t know if it’s a problem/bug with Loopy or not.
Since there’s no “central” iOS audio control, like @Samu says, it seems like some apps just try to do their thing… If a user sets the output gain if an interface in Loopy to 80%, it makes sense that it stays that way unless the new app sets another value.
Or maybe what you’re saying is… if I change the gain in AUM, loopy should respect that, and not change it again. Is that it?. Once more, it seems like apps are doing a “centralized” thing with gain but iOS is not well prepared for that.
Edit: Loopy does respect the gain set in AUM, if I set the gain at 33% in AUM, that’s the value of that input source gain in Loopy. BUT I tried this with the iPad mic, as I don’t have my Zedi here with me. It should work the same way.
Maybe with the iOS update the level defaulted to the weird 77%, maybe I inadvertently changed it while fiddling manically in loopy… Gain setting seems to be per device, not global. Makes it even more confusing.
Conclusion: we need a centralized gain thingy.
Sure, but it’s still weird because my line-level synth direct into the interface is peaking at like 20% gain on the Black Lion. When I first got it, it wouldn’t get to peaking with the same synth until just barely under 12 o clock. The way overblown gain is also picking up extremely audible constant digital distortion/data transfer bleep and bloop communication noises and it definitely was not before. I was so happy to finally have a decent interface. I’m at a loss.
And the iPad apps won’t let you change the gain because of “another device…”.
Do you have anything else connected that might be locking the interface?.
Do you have a control panel software for Mac/windows?. You might be able to change the gain there…
@tahiche : you will need to do the Loopy vs AUM test to see if loopy is changing the setting with the device itself. It might behave the same with the interface as with the headset mic, but it might not. Only trying will tell for sure.
IMO, Loopy shouldn’t be changing the input gain if it was set itself.
Let me just say we need to distinguish two kinds of "input gain". One is the actual preamp gain in the audio interface, before the A/D converter. You want to adjust that to have a strong enough signal before digitizing. And that preamp gain is device-specific, since it will work differently on different hardware. The other "input gain", what I'd call "input level", just scales the digitized signal inside the receiving app. If the preamp gain is too low, increasing the input level will amplify the noise as well, so this is not desirable. If the preamp gain is too high, the signal will overload the preamp and the digitizer, creating distortion that cannot be removed. So it is important to be able to adjust the preamp gain, unless you're working only with line level signals that are already in the correct range.
I believe the discussion in this thread relates (mostly) to the audio interface preamp gain, and how iOS apps do, or do not, interface to it.
I really don’t know what ere talking about! 😂. Let me clarify my confusion….
I thought preamp was prior to the level on the interface, in my case the Zedi mixer. My Zedi mixer was peaking red, loud signal. It was when reaching the iPad app that the volume was reduced…
If the interface meters show a healthy signal (even touching red on my test)… Isn’t that preamp?.
My belief, but I might be wrong, is that I’m adjusting the preamp gain on the mixer itself, to get a good signal… and it’d be what you call “input level” that was changing between apps.
Isn’t the app changing the “input level”?.
@tahiche . I think you're right. It is strange though, typical Apple.