Audiobus: Use your music apps together.

What is Audiobus?Audiobus is an award-winning music app for iPhone and iPad which lets you use your other music apps together. Chain effects on your favourite synth, run the output of apps or Audio Units into an app like GarageBand or Loopy, or select a different audio interface output for each app. Route MIDI between apps — drive a synth from a MIDI sequencer, or add an arpeggiator to your MIDI keyboard — or sync with your external MIDI gear. And control your entire setup from a MIDI controller.

Download on the App Store

Audiobus is the app that makes the rest of your setup better.

What’s your local app store return policies?

Here in Norway we can refund any apps for no reason at all within two weeks. This helps immensely when establishing a library of quality apps that work well together. Any problems and app not in active development = return and refund. Probably have done this with half my purchases. I always try to check with the developer if it might be an easy fix, as there’s a reason behind my spending.

Also interested in knowing how this affects income from a developers perspective.

Comments

  • wimwim
    edited July 2021

    @ehehehe said:
    Also interested in knowing how this affects income from a developers perspective.

    On paper, it could. What I've read is the developer receives the purchase amount minus Apple's commission, but is liable for the full purchase price if the app is refunded.

    After several years of this coming up from time to time, I don't recall a developer ever confirming that this has happened in actuality, and I can recall some mentions that they've not had that happen. I suppose either way it's less of an issue now that the Apple commission has been lowered from 30% to 15% for virtually all developers of these types of apps.

    It's a cloudy issue.

  • @ehehehe said:
    Here in Norway we can refund any apps for no reason at all within two weeks. This helps immensely when establishing a library of quality apps that work well together. Any problems and app not in active development = return and refund. Probably have done this with half my purchases. I always try to check with the developer if it might be an easy fix, as there’s a reason behind my spending.

    Also interested in knowing how this affects income from a developers perspective.

    Any time you get a refund, that comes out of the developer’s pocket (as long as they’ve already been paid).

  • wimwim
    edited July 2021

    @NeuM said:
    Any time you get a refund, that comes out of the developer’s pocket (as long as they’ve already been paid).

    That much is clear. It's whether or not they lose the sale price - Apple commission, or whether they eat that. The wording of the agreement is they eat it, but whether or not that actually happens isn't clear.

    Technically, for a $10 app they would receive $8.50, but would be charged $10 for the refund.

  • @wim said:

    @NeuM said:
    Any time you get a refund, that comes out of the developer’s pocket (as long as they’ve already been paid).

    That much is clear. It's whether or not they lose the sale price - Apple commission, or whether they eat that. The wording of the agreement is they eat it, but whether or not that actually happens isn't clear.

    Yes, they eat it.

  • According to a developer who has sold apps on the App Store since 2008:

    This story has grown wings without anyone actually bothering to verify the claim. ... This same claim was made back in 2009 and got publicity until it too was debunked.

    https://news.slashdot.org/story/20/07/29/2144256/apple-does-not-keep-the-30-commission-on-a-refund-update

    To put this to rest, does anyone have a link to the terms?

    I'd like to see where 'Apple reserves the right to keep their 30/15%, or the full purchase price if it's refunded.'

  • wimwim
    edited July 2021

    @NeuM said:

    @wim said:

    @NeuM said:
    Any time you get a refund, that comes out of the developer’s pocket (as long as they’ve already been paid).

    That much is clear. It's whether or not they lose the sale price - Apple commission, or whether they eat that. The wording of the agreement is they eat it, but whether or not that actually happens isn't clear.

    Yes, they eat it.

    Not according to comments I've read from more than one developer saying they've never had this happen. It's inconclusive whether this actually happens if you ask me, but maybe you have access to info that I don't.

  • @wim said:

    @NeuM said:

    @wim said:

    @NeuM said:
    Any time you get a refund, that comes out of the developer’s pocket (as long as they’ve already been paid).

    That much is clear. It's whether or not they lose the sale price - Apple commission, or whether they eat that. The wording of the agreement is they eat it, but whether or not that actually happens isn't clear.

    Yes, they eat it.

    Not according to comments I've read from more than one developer saying they've never had this happen. It's inconclusive whether this actually happens if you ask me, but maybe you have access to info I don't.

    When I had a developer account, I understood the developer was financially liable for refunds. Maybe this policy has changed.

  • That’s good then, how about my first question (and the title of the thread 😄)? Is it two weeks everywhere?

  • @ehehehe I believe it was two weeks in the UK but I think that changed when we left the EU.

  • I didn't know it was different from country to country. For me, refund policy has been totally inconsistent, unpredictable and the opposite of transparent.

  • In the US, when requesting a refund at at this link, usually the system will automatically reject the request within seconds of making the request. Of the three or four broken apps that I've requested a refund for, all refund requests were 'auto-rejected' and I had to use this link to contact a human, and explain the problem with the app, similar to giving a technical testimony in a courtroom.

  • The developer agreement is at https://developer.apple.com/support/downloads/terms/schedules/Schedule-2-and-3-20210607-English.pdf

    Section 6.3 is the one I think you are looking for.

    The general page for agreements is here: https://developer.apple.com/support/terms/

  • @Ailerom said:
    I didn't know it was different from country to country. For me, refund policy has been totally inconsistent, unpredictable and the opposite of transparent.

    Apparently it boils down to consumer rights in the individual national markets.

    @ocelot said:
    In the US, when requesting a refund at at this link, usually the system will automatically reject the request within seconds of making the request. Of the three or four broken apps that I've requested a refund for, all refund requests were 'auto-rejected' and I had to use this link to contact a human, and explain the problem with the app, similar to giving a technical testimony in a courtroom.

    Wow, what a hassle. I would most def not go through this for smaller purchases.

    Seems like most of the world need demos AUs and apps in general. When I request a refund it’s always two-three clicks and money back the next day. This is okay, would prefer it integrated into the app store or app settings, combined with a solution for direct problem reporting.

  • I have vague recollections of there being some kind of sanction imposed on serial refunders, can anyone confirm this or is it another myth (that I may have just made up)?

  • I’m in USA for context. Our consumer protection is very limited. Particular states may have better protection than the USA on a whole. I know for example my Apple Care + on my Mac tells in the terms that if I’m not happy with the options Apple provides to contact Oregon Consumer Protection Agency. Some states have reasonable options. Most states have no real option for local consumer protection laws.

    With that being said, I have never had a single purchase denied a refund when I asked. I have asked very few times. 3 apps. One didn’t work as AUv3 on my specific iPad, the other had a broken interface, and the third was from a reputable developer and I didn’t think twice about buying only to find there was no MIDI. There is still no MIDI on this app. They figured they don’t care and I’m done with this developer. They are a well loved developer. I don’t care if they lost revenue over that, but I’m so rarely doing refunds.

    This is the worst example. I also had Apple Arcade trial and then figured I’d do Apple One and extend it another month, since it included Apple Arcade and I would get Music back again for a free month. I really wasn’t even using Apple Arcade very much, but had one game and wanted to finish it. Well, no they charged me for Apple Arcade. I contacted chat and they were telling me that they wouldn’t want to interfere with the services I was getting with Apple One trial and that if I canceled it I would loose the arcade feature that is a part of Apple One if I canceled the separate Apple Arcade subscription. So, they are clearly linked as far as availability for the trail, but not as far as them charging you they will charge you twice. Then I got them to cancel that, then my Mac started giving me pop ups about Apple Arcade free trial and I clicked it. I recorded the interaction and after clicking yes to get it free, it charged me immediately. It never had a price said it was free. I immediately went to reportaproblem.apple.com and they approved it. I advised them I had photo evidence of the incident.

    As stated, I have never had a denial of refund.

    I’ve heard some people had things like Apple Music, Apple TV, etc and they were paying for these things and also paying for Apple One at the same for the same services and Apple refused to refund in this circumstance that they were paying for the same service twice. They said it was expected and in their terms and conditions.

  • All member states of the EU have this rule:

    The right of withdrawal is a powerful tool that EU law
    gives to the consumer.

    It allows the consumer to cancel, without justification,
    the consumer contract within 14 days after he received
    the good, or after he concluded the contract for
    services or digital content.

  • @NeonSilicon said:
    The developer agreement is at https://developer.apple.com/support/downloads/terms/schedules/Schedule-2-and-3-20210607-English.pdf

    Section 6.3 is the one I think you are looking for.

    Thank you! That's full of legalese, will have a friend with legal experience decipher it.

    @ehehehe said:
    Seems like most of the world need demos AUs and apps in general.

    Everyone would benefit if Apple implemented a trial-period, but maybe that's the definition of a subscription service.

    @MisplacedDevelopment said:
    I have vague recollections of there being some kind of sanction imposed on serial refunders, can anyone confirm this or is it another myth (that I may have just made up)?

    Heard of that with Amazon, but not with Apple, yet?

    @DMan said:
    I’ve heard some people had things like Apple Music, Apple TV, etc and they were paying for these things and also paying for Apple One at the same for the same services and Apple refused to refund in this circumstance that they were paying for the same service twice.

    My brother's wife did this, for months...

    They said it was expected and in their terms and conditions.

    ...and that's exactly what Apple told my brother when he asked for a refund on one of the services. He leveraged his corporate account with Apple to fix it, which is the kind of shit we have to do in the US to fix things. Or lawyers.

  • @lasselu said:

    All member states of the EU have this rule:

    The right of withdrawal is a powerful tool that EU law
    gives to the consumer.

    It allows the consumer to cancel, without justification,
    the consumer contract within 14 days after he received
    the good, or after he concluded the contract for
    services or digital content.

    I don’t understand why consumers don’t have this right in any country in the world, especially in case of software. It’s not a physical product, just 0’s and 1’s in a datacenter. To deliver sw to the customers requires zero logistics, packaging, etc. it can be replicated infinite times without direct cost.
    A certain period for the withdrawal is absolutely reasonable in case of a product you can’t try before you buy.
    I don’t know why some governments do not force companies to implement such return policy.

  • Germany. EU. Refund within 14 days without questions.

    What I actually find weird is that after refund the app remains on the device. It just does not receive any updates any more. This allows quite some abuse. Generally this EU law for online shopping is very consumer friendly but I know that some people abuse it. I heard of people ordering a 3000 EUR projector from Amazon, use it to watch the football final and then refund it. Another trick is to order an expensive Whiskey at Amazon and instantly trigger refund after delivery as ‘accidental wrong choice’. Usually Amazon Germany refunds all food and beverages without prior return - you can simply keep it. But honestly, I strongly dislike such abuse as this might kill consumer friendly laws.

  • @lasselu said:
    All member states of the EU have this rule:

    The right of withdrawal is a powerful tool that EU law
    gives to the consumer.

    It allows the consumer to cancel, without justification,
    the consumer contract within 14 days after he received
    the good, or after he concluded the contract for
    services or digital content.

    As long as it’s ordered online, right?

    @krassmann said:
    Germany. EU. Refund within 14 days without questions.

    What I actually find weird is that after refund the app remains on the device. It just does not receive any updates any more. This allows quite some abuse. Generally this EU law for online shopping is very consumer friendly but I know that some people abuse it. I heard of people ordering a 3000 EUR projector from Amazon, use it to watch the football final and then refund it. Another trick is to order an expensive Whiskey at Amazon and instantly trigger refund after delivery as ‘accidental wrong choice’. Usually Amazon Germany refunds all food and beverages without prior return - you can simply keep it. But honestly, I strongly dislike such abuse as this might kill consumer friendly laws.

    Thanks! Abuse means more expensive apps for the rest so I agree. But we have even a longer way to go (rights to repair, no planned obsoletion, exaggerated needs) as consumers versus the industry giants, so use your votes and stop buying plastic boxes that break.

  • @ehehehe said:

    @lasselu said:
    All member states of the EU have this rule:

    The right of withdrawal is a powerful tool that EU law
    gives to the consumer.

    It allows the consumer to cancel, without justification,
    the consumer contract within 14 days after he received
    the good, or after he concluded the contract for
    services or digital content.

    As long as it’s ordered online, right?

    Correct...

  • edited August 2021

    @wim said: I don't recall a developer ever confirming that this has happened in actuality

    This developer can confirm it has happened. And it seems to be happening more frequently, or at least, it is to me.

    So yeah, basically you can have periods where an app is showing negative proceeds. It's ever so slightly discouraging... And...

    If you want a definition of adding insult to (financial) injury, how about this sequence of events...

    1. One star review because person's request for refund was declined (as you know, the developer has no say in this)
    2. Person actually gets refund after appealing
    3. Person can now (presumably) no longer edit their one star review so there it remains for all to see

    It's a funny old game.

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