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O.T.: An extraordinarily dark day in American history...

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Comments

  • edited January 8

    @SNystrom said:
    Article II, Section 2 of the U.S. Constitution lays out the scope of the Presidential Pardon. It authorizes the President “to grant Reprieves and Pardons for Offenses against the United States, except in Cases of Impeachment.”
    RELATED: VERIFY: What's a pardon, and how does it work?

    Experts agree it’s one of the broadest constitutional powers, and in the case of Wednesday’s siege of the Capitol, President Trump could pardon the entire mob.
    “He can pardon either individual members or groups of people for any federal offense, period, full stop,” Professor Frank Bowman said. “From jaywalking on a federal street to treason.”
    Capital University law professor Dan Kobil agreed with Bowman, saying there really aren't restrictions to his authority when it comes to federal offenses.
    “The President has the authority to pardon any person who violated any federal laws on that date,” Kobil said. “He could even pardon the bomb-makers.”

    Good lord, if that is true they gotta patch that shit up. What morons run that place? Oh right.

  • @AudioGus said:

    @SNystrom said:
    The director of the Capitol Police has announced his resignation — like that does any good after the fact.

    I'm hopeful they will wait until Donnie is gone to arrest anyone. Breaking into the Capitol is a federal felony. As long as Dictator Donnie is in power, he'll have the ability to pardon each and every one of them.

    I think they would have to be prosecuted first and that wont happen in 14 days. I dont think he can pardon arrests, only convictions.

    Nope. Gerald Ford pardoned Richard Nixon for any crimes he had committed even though Nixon had not yet been charged with any.

  • @espiegel123 said:

    @AudioGus said:

    @SNystrom said:
    The director of the Capitol Police has announced his resignation — like that does any good after the fact.

    I'm hopeful they will wait until Donnie is gone to arrest anyone. Breaking into the Capitol is a federal felony. As long as Dictator Donnie is in power, he'll have the ability to pardon each and every one of them.

    I think they would have to be prosecuted first and that wont happen in 14 days. I dont think he can pardon arrests, only convictions.

    Nope. Gerald Ford pardoned Richard Nixon for any crimes he had committed even though Nixon had not yet been charged with any.

    Yah just read that. What a shit hole country.

  • Hahaha Gus!

    I fondly remember Donnie calling other nations that back in the day.

    Now who's the shithole? 🤗

  • @SNystrom said:
    Hahaha Gus!

    I fondly remember Donnie calling other nations that back in the day.

    Now who's the shithole? 🤗

    Wow, yah good luck down there guys. Frickin dictator elects in the 21st century. That is bonkers.

  • @SimonSomeone said:
    Polarised people on either side are dangerous. Today's right wing idiots, the anarchist thugs rioting for months in Portland (after dark, when the peaceful protestors and media have left) etc. People were shot there too in violence at the autonomous zone.

    All media is biased, you are only shown what you want to see. I'm not American but I listen to podcasts by non-woke progressive leftist Americans (sounds contradictory I know) who have no problem taking to reasonable people on either side. Which is where the vast majority of people actually are, despite it being in the best interests of media companies to polarise people further, and which the tech companies feed on and encourage.

    I hope America can stave off civil war, but the polarisation and hate is so huge. "live not by lies" is a phrase I've heard a bit lately and which I'd like to practice more. We are all lied to, usually it's easier to go with your in-group but ultimately it's more dangerous.

    To all the Americans here, I'm truly sorry for what your great country is doing it to yourself.

    Man, thank goodness we haven’t all lost our minds with this “my side is better than your side” business the media flings out every day, all day. Your post resonates with me as a once “long time democrat” and now a “please don’t lump in with the silly d-words”

    I’m going to try to refrain from clicking on political posts on this forum on a go-forward! Amazing times we live in, that’s one thing we can all agree on!

  • @trancespotter said:
    These riots were despicable but I can’t blame the rioters for doing what they did. The president, conservative media...

    Conservative media? You found it?! Where?

  • @Littlewoodg go for it. The water’s fine.

  • @Max23 said:

    @cian said: And Russia isn't great, but it's not that much worse than Italy and certainly better than Turkey or Ukraine.

    excuse me
    Italy is a democracy.
    Not sure what to call Russia, Turkey or Ukraine.

    Some wag recently referred to Russia as

    “Putin’s Gas Station”
    😂

  • That qanon shaman guy is hilarious
    Heard he’s from ‘Zona... figures haha

    All the last four years have shown me is that all politicians are trash regardless of party as well as every mainstream media company. F everybody from Pelosi to Trump, to The BLM and MAGA domestic terrorists. Screw them all
    People need to learn how to agree to disagree and work together

    Peace y’all

  • @ruggedsmooth said:
    That qanon shaman guy is hilarious
    Heard he’s from ‘Zona... figures haha

    All the last four years have shown me is that all politicians are trash regardless of party as well as every mainstream media company. F everybody from Pelosi to Trump, to The BLM and MAGA domestic terrorists. Screw them all
    People need to learn how to agree to disagree and work together

    Peace y’all

    Screw BLM? You don’t see value in working towards the lives of people with different skins colors being viewed as equally valuable?

  • @Obo said:

    @trancespotter said:
    These riots were despicable but I can’t blame the rioters for doing what they did. The president, conservative media...

    Conservative media? You found it?! Where?

    https://www.allsides.com/media-bias/media-bias-chart

  • @ruggedsmooth said:
    That qanon shaman guy is hilarious
    Heard he’s from ‘Zona... figures haha

    All the last four years have shown me is that all politicians are trash regardless of party as well as every mainstream media company. F everybody from Pelosi to Trump, to The BLM and MAGA domestic terrorists. Screw them all
    People need to learn how to agree to disagree and work together

    Peace y’all

    BLM has nothing to do with terrorism. It is an organization working to end systemic and structural racism and to make people more aware of how racism is an ongoing problem that ruins people’s lives. They work towards increasing understanding. What is your objection to it?

  • @michael_m said:

    @ruggedsmooth said:
    That qanon shaman guy is hilarious
    Heard he’s from ‘Zona... figures haha

    All the last four years have shown me is that all politicians are trash regardless of party as well as every mainstream media company. F everybody from Pelosi to Trump, to The BLM and MAGA domestic terrorists. Screw them all
    People need to learn how to agree to disagree and work together

    Peace y’all

    Screw BLM? You don’t see value in working towards the lives of people with different skins colors being viewed as equally valuable?

    See, part of the problem is that BLM and MAGA are skewed spectrums within a spectrum. Even if the majority of each group falls within the range of rational, peaceful people espousing a viewpoint, the outliers are the ones that get all the attention and brand the rest.

  • Ugh, stop forming groups people! You’re all individuals!

  • @Liquidmantis said:

    @michael_m said:

    @ruggedsmooth said:
    That qanon shaman guy is hilarious
    Heard he’s from ‘Zona... figures haha

    All the last four years have shown me is that all politicians are trash regardless of party as well as every mainstream media company. F everybody from Pelosi to Trump, to The BLM and MAGA domestic terrorists. Screw them all
    People need to learn how to agree to disagree and work together

    Peace y’all

    Screw BLM? You don’t see value in working towards the lives of people with different skins colors being viewed as equally valuable?

    See, part of the problem is that BLM and MAGA are skewed spectrums within a spectrum. Even if the majority of each group falls within the range of rational, peaceful people espousing a viewpoint, the outliers are the ones that get all the attention and brand the rest.

    However, one is based on electoral sloganeering to get elected to public office, and the other originated with private citizens who are part of a minority that is demonstrably more likely to be killed by law enforcement than white people.

    I really don’t really see them as opposites in the sense that they form equal but opposite ends of a spectrum.

  • edited January 8

    YAY! USA! USA!

  • @michael_m said:

    @Liquidmantis said:

    @michael_m said:

    @ruggedsmooth said:
    That qanon shaman guy is hilarious
    Heard he’s from ‘Zona... figures haha

    All the last four years have shown me is that all politicians are trash regardless of party as well as every mainstream media company. F everybody from Pelosi to Trump, to The BLM and MAGA domestic terrorists. Screw them all
    People need to learn how to agree to disagree and work together

    Peace y’all

    Screw BLM? You don’t see value in working towards the lives of people with different skins colors being viewed as equally valuable?

    See, part of the problem is that BLM and MAGA are skewed spectrums within a spectrum. Even if the majority of each group falls within the range of rational, peaceful people espousing a viewpoint, the outliers are the ones that get all the attention and brand the rest.

    However, one is based on electoral sloganeering to get elected to public office, and the other originated with private citizens who are part of a minority that is demonstrably more likely to be killed by law enforcement than white people.

    I really don’t really see them as opposites in the sense that they form equal but opposite ends of a spectrum.

    Are they though? Or did the red hats just give them something to rally under, and recognize each other in crowds? Because the pro-MAGA arguments I've heard have been that these are people that feel underrepresented and that there has been a [not so] slow dissolution of their beliefs and rights.

    To be clear, I lean pretty heavily left, but I grew up in rural Texas, so far my own peace and sanity I've learned to try to disassociate myself and take the position of devil's advocate; if nothing else than for the mental exercise.

  • @Liquidmantis said:

    @michael_m said:

    @Liquidmantis said:

    @michael_m said:

    @ruggedsmooth said:
    That qanon shaman guy is hilarious
    Heard he’s from ‘Zona... figures haha

    All the last four years have shown me is that all politicians are trash regardless of party as well as every mainstream media company. F everybody from Pelosi to Trump, to The BLM and MAGA domestic terrorists. Screw them all
    People need to learn how to agree to disagree and work together

    Peace y’all

    Screw BLM? You don’t see value in working towards the lives of people with different skins colors being viewed as equally valuable?

    See, part of the problem is that BLM and MAGA are skewed spectrums within a spectrum. Even if the majority of each group falls within the range of rational, peaceful people espousing a viewpoint, the outliers are the ones that get all the attention and brand the rest.

    However, one is based on electoral sloganeering to get elected to public office, and the other originated with private citizens who are part of a minority that is demonstrably more likely to be killed by law enforcement than white people.

    I really don’t really see them as opposites in the sense that they form equal but opposite ends of a spectrum.

    Are they though? Or did the red hats just give them something to rally under, and recognize each other in crowds? Because the pro-MAGA arguments I've heard have been that these are people that feel underrepresented and that there has been a [not so] slow dissolution of their beliefs and rights.

    To be clear, I lean pretty heavily left, but I grew up in rural Texas, so far my own peace and sanity I've learned to try to disassociate myself and take the position of devil's advocate; if nothing else than for the mental exercise.

    The MAGA followers may feel that they are underrepresented in some ways after hearing Trump’s rhetoric, but they don’t get shot on the way home for carrying a sandwich. In fact, they can generally strut around with assault rifles in front of law enforcement and just chat with them on friendly terms despite the fact that they’re sometimes committing felonies.

    I’m not black and would not deign to assume I know what it is like to be scared that I won’t make it home alive when someone sees the color of my skin. I don’t pretend for a moment that what I perceive as social ills or examples of political bias affect me to the extent that my life might be ended for no justifiable reason.

    Sure there are probably valid grievances from Trump supporters, but I don’t think that they reach the same level as a desire to feel that the person beneath the black skin has as much right to life as a white person.

  • @Liquidmantis said:

    @michael_m said:

    @ruggedsmooth said:
    That qanon shaman guy is hilarious
    Heard he’s from ‘Zona... figures haha

    All the last four years have shown me is that all politicians are trash regardless of party as well as every mainstream media company. F everybody from Pelosi to Trump, to The BLM and MAGA domestic terrorists. Screw them all
    People need to learn how to agree to disagree and work together

    Peace y’all

    Screw BLM? You don’t see value in working towards the lives of people with different skins colors being viewed as equally valuable?

    See, part of the problem is that BLM and MAGA are skewed spectrums within a spectrum. Even if the majority of each group falls within the range of rational, peaceful people espousing a viewpoint, the outliers are the ones that get all the attention and brand the rest.

    I am sorry. You can’t compare MAGA and BLM. MAGA is a movement with deep ties to white supremacist, anti-science, xenophobic, anti-Muslim, Christian supremacist ideology.

    It can’t be compared to BLM whose goal is ending the mistreatment of African Americans and systemic structural racism.

  • @espiegel123 said:

    @Liquidmantis said:

    @michael_m said:

    @ruggedsmooth said:
    That qanon shaman guy is hilarious
    Heard he’s from ‘Zona... figures haha

    All the last four years have shown me is that all politicians are trash regardless of party as well as every mainstream media company. F everybody from Pelosi to Trump, to The BLM and MAGA domestic terrorists. Screw them all
    People need to learn how to agree to disagree and work together

    Peace y’all

    Screw BLM? You don’t see value in working towards the lives of people with different skins colors being viewed as equally valuable?

    See, part of the problem is that BLM and MAGA are skewed spectrums within a spectrum. Even if the majority of each group falls within the range of rational, peaceful people espousing a viewpoint, the outliers are the ones that get all the attention and brand the rest.

    I am sorry. You can’t compare MAGA and BLM. MAGA is a movement with deep ties to white supremacist, anti-science, xenophobic, anti-Muslim, Christian supremacist ideology.

    It can’t be compared to BLM whose goal is ending the mistreatment of African Americans and systemic structural racism.

    Just looking at posts with MAGA hashtags on Parler will show you the depths of depravity that some of these people consider normal behavior in the MAGA world.

  • @espiegel123 said:

    @Liquidmantis said:

    @michael_m said:

    @ruggedsmooth said:
    That qanon shaman guy is hilarious
    Heard he’s from ‘Zona... figures haha

    All the last four years have shown me is that all politicians are trash regardless of party as well as every mainstream media company. F everybody from Pelosi to Trump, to The BLM and MAGA domestic terrorists. Screw them all
    People need to learn how to agree to disagree and work together

    Peace y’all

    Screw BLM? You don’t see value in working towards the lives of people with different skins colors being viewed as equally valuable?

    See, part of the problem is that BLM and MAGA are skewed spectrums within a spectrum. Even if the majority of each group falls within the range of rational, peaceful people espousing a viewpoint, the outliers are the ones that get all the attention and brand the rest.

    I am sorry. You can’t compare MAGA and BLM. MAGA is a movement with deep ties to white supremacist, anti-science, xenophobic, anti-Muslim, Christian supremacist ideology.

    It can’t be compared to BLM whose goal is ending the mistreatment of African Americans and systemic structural racism.

    I left out that MAGA is strongly tied to baseless, racist, anti-Muslim and anti-Semitic conspiracy theories...these ties are not at the fringes but at its core.

    They have have fought against effective public health policies that would reduce the pandemic and as a result amplified it.

    Comparing them to BLM in some sort of “these things are similar” seems either off-point or a denial that racism is a scourge that should be ended. I would suggest you spend time reading thoughtful articulations of what BLM is about. I don’t think it is what you think it is.

  • Everyone is equally locked down at the mo. Likely staring into devices which were likey planted soley for survelience. When let out people will generally likely have equal oppurtunity to work for Amazon. Twitter or facebook. Those that make the laws are multi millionaires and have the power and no regard for peoples business being burnt. They also shot a woman in the neck claiming thier building is sacred. It seems like a part of society and the problem. Is to bring equality by means of shooting more people of different backgrounds just to appease people because they cant bring equality when they are robbing everyone.

  • @cian said:

    @SimonSomeone said:
    The insidious threat on the left side is that the Critical Theory understanding of the world has thoroughly spread through all the humanities, which is most of the people who run things, including educators, and now it is the default position on the intellectual left.

    I'm guessing you probably can't define what 'critical theory' is, but regardless this is nonsense. It's been most successful in English and things like women's studies, but it's use is pretty limited in most of social studies/arts.

    This is partly what left a gap for Trump to arrive as the Democrats abandoned its traditional role as speaking for the working class and the disadvantaged generally, and only caring about various intersectional minorities and the tech companies.

    While I'm no fan of the Democrats, Trump was most successful among wealthier voters and small business men. Also most working class people are minorities and Trump did not do particularly well with the working class - if we're defining working class by income (in the US it's often defined using education, which is why you hear about working class car dealership owners).

    And these ideologies are now the air that people breathe, they don't even notice they are a specific thing that is opposed the liberal (small L liberal) world view that has slowly but steadily increased all areas of human rights, despite its multiple failures and hypocrisies, historic and present.

    I mean they're not part of the air I breathe...

    If you see modern young far leftists in action it's scarily similar (not the same, but reminiscent none-the-less) to the attitudes of the Maoist Red Guard.

    And the threat from that side I would say is actually greater than the threat from the right. No-one in the reasonable right, as the actions of many of the Republicans demonstrated yesterday, is behind what happened.

    The same Republicans who've been questioning the validity of the election for almost a year, but when a riot broke out in their workplace, suddenly realized they may have pushed it too far? Those reasonable Republicans?

    Whereas many of the powerful people on the left are fully onboard with the divisive aspects of what I guess I would call wokeness, or the Social Justice movement (and yes I'm not diminishing the importance of social justice, with small letters).

    If by Social Justice you mean treating people with courtesy and respect, then sure I'm for it. Most of what is described as defending free speech, seems to mostly be white people defending their right to be an asshole to others.

    Terrible social orders have happened in may times and places around the world, and they can come from either side, as Russia learned last century. And they could happen again.

    I feel like there was a terrible social order in the US. Confederate something? Do you ever hear of that? Jim Crow something? Ring any bells?

    I know some see wokeness as maybe a continuation of the civil rights movements, but I think that is an error, despite many good intentions being in evidence. Here's an example of the kind of thing I'm talking about, it's only 7 minutes, and it's from the leftist Vox so it has good credentials. This is what I'm scared of.

    Vox is centerist, if that matters - but this video actually came from Vice News. One of the founders of Vice news (Gavin McInnes who is no longer with them) founded the Proud Boys, though they seem to veer all over the ideological spectrum with their output.

    Bret Weinstein can claim he used to be on the left I guess - but since that controversy he's allied himself with some pretty far right people, while the controversy itself was stupid. It seemed to be him defending his right to be a dick. Which I guess you can do, but it's hard to respect the man.

  • @cian
    I've been interested in Critical Theory for a few years, and its relationship to wokeness and the SJW phenomenon. I don't claim to be an expert. I'm reading James Lindsay and Helen Pluckrose's book on it., Cynical Theories. I have heard them say that it provided some valuable insights, but has been weaponised.

    I'm a fan of treating people with courtesy and respect. I'm a really big fan of it. I try to do it in every situation. Even with people I disagree with. Not always successfully of course. However calling something by an honourable name doesn't make it honourable, always. Stalin had the best interest of the working class at heart, Mao too. I've seen much thuggishness on the activist left side, and been called out by 'friends' for not following the line of accepted thought.

    Yes I've heard a bit about certain racial problems currently and in the history of the US. There's really no need to be so sarcastic is there? But maybe you really do think I'm that naive.
    My favourite commentators on race issues are Coleman Hughes, Glenn Loury, John McWhorter. They're all heterodox commentators, I guess. All black, of course. Coleman Hughes' article "How to be an anti-Intellectual" is a very good take on Ibram X Kendi's book. He has good things to say about D Angelo as well. You can find them pretty easily.

    Vox is classified as left by the 2 media bias sites I looked at, and by my own judgement. There's nothing wrong with that. I don't think many people would describe it as centrist.

    Re Brett Weinstein, all I can say is you've been misinformed about his character. I've watched many many things by him. His reaction to the protests where he was hunted down by rioters with baseball bats when the college police were told to stand down was reasonable and calm and restrained almost beyond belief. I would describe him as almost heroic. He has spent a lot of time in non western situations, around non white people. Maybe you've seen his podcast where he talked to 7 black intellectuals post the George Floyd killing? That's a good discussion.

    I suspect if we met in real life we might have a good discussion, and that we probably want similar things from the world. Fairness for all people, freedom to live our lives as we see fit. Most people do I think, they just disagree about how to get there.

    But perhaps I'm just naive ...

    Peace to you.

  • oh boy... something tells me this is just the beginning.. we're in for a wild ride. not just the US, but the world. buckle up ya'll!

    im personally working on becoming self sustaining and living off grid. I have a 5 year plan, just hope its fast enough.

  • @shinyisshiny said:
    oh boy... something tells me this is just the beginning.. we're in for a wild ride. not just the US, but the world. buckle up ya'll!

    im personally working on becoming self sustaining and living off grid. I have a 5 year plan, just hope its fast enough.

    Awww. No worries Homie, Uncle Joe’s got this.

  • @shinyisshiny, that sounds like a good plan as there is no room for you in a hospital anyway, should you need it.

  • @espiegel123 said:

    .... I don't know about equal numbers. There's staunch rednecks with guns, and there's the intellectual elite with their spheres of influence. I think the polarised factions express themselves completely differently, in different arenas, and are hard to compare directly.

    I consider myself to be on the left, so I'm more disappointed by the left. I always considered those on the right to be beyond my understanding, and essentially bad. That other most hated individual, Jordan Peterson, changed my worldview. I watched his Maps of Meaning lectures about 5 years ago, before he became in/famous. The way your brain is formed will largely dictate whether you prefer order over openness, conscientiousness over creativity. Care for your ingroup over concern for the outsider. We have evolved these ways and they are real. we need both those kinds of perspectives. I'm probably saying those things a bit wrong, but right and left ways of looking will always be there, and in the discussion between the viewpoints we hopefully find the best way forward in any given situation.

    Either that or war, if we can't talk and come to agreement. I do fear that the US will end up in some kind of actual war given the extent of the polarisation. I suppose the birth of social media has had a big effect on this, the positive and the negative of it.

    Peace to you.

  • @Obo said:

    Man, thank goodness we haven’t all lost our minds with this “my side is better than your side” business the media flings out every day, all day. Your post resonates with me as a once “long time democrat” and now a “please don’t lump in with the silly d-words”

    I’m going to try to refrain from clicking on political posts on this forum on a go-forward! Amazing times we live in, that’s one thing we can all agree on!

    Thanks for the comment. I sometimes feel like the only person who thinks like I do. It has led me to abandon Facebook, which I used to enjoy. It's a little safer to dip one's toes in the water on this forum, as I have no IRL friends here :)

    I don't want to make a habit of doing political posts, or even clicking on the topics. I usually just steer clear of it but every now and then I think it's important to express what you think, no matter how unpopular it might be. It's almost a duty maybe?

This discussion has been closed.