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O.T.: An extraordinarily dark day in American history...

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Comments

  • @cian: California is not a one-party state. It is true that the Democrats are the majority party. But there are a significant number of Republicans in California-- and parts of the state in which they dominate. The spread of the virus is a separate issue from the terribly high cost of health care (and life in general) in the state.

    The spread of the virus has been driven by the significant number of people refusing to engage in safe behavior. That has been driven by the Republican Party and Fox News. There are large parts of the state where people refuse to social distance or wear masks. Those people have lots of opportunity to spread the virus.

  • @sambo .... I don’t think you understand the nature of this forum, or the tortured but beautiful minds behind it.

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  • @Max23 said:

    @cian said: And Russia isn't great, but it's not that much worse than Italy and certainly better than Turkey or Ukraine.

    excuse me
    Italy is a democracy.
    Not sure what to call Russia, Turkey or Ukraine.

    Italy's a managed democracy which historically had a very active deep (and violent) state with deep links to various illegal actors (e.g. mafia). Other managed democracies include Japan (non-violent), Mexico (extraordinarily violent, though also some signs it may emerge out of it) and until recently South Korea.

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  • @espiegel123 said:
    @cian: California is not a one-party state.

    The Democrats have been the primary party for a long time and control the state machinery, appoint political appointees and generally run the state (just as Republicans control Texas). Yes there are Republican cities, just as there are Democratic cities all over the south, but the state is controlled by the Democrats. Failures of governance are on them.

    It is true that the Democrats are the majority party. But there are a significant number of Republicans in California-- and parts of the state in which they dominate. The spread of the virus is a separate issue from the terribly high cost of health care (and life in general) in the state.

    One of the reasons that healthcare is expensive in California is due to decisions made by the legislature, failure to properly regulate, fund free clinics, etc. The collapse of the hospital system (which preceded the epidemic) is one of the reasons why they're struggling now. Similar thing in the UK where underfunding of the NHS has led to a number of issues which have resulted in worse COVID outcomes.

    The spread of the virus has been driven by the significant number of people refusing to engage in safe behavior. That has been driven by the Republican Party and Fox News. There are large parts of the state where people refuse to social distance or wear masks. Those people have lots of opportunity to spread the virus.

    That is one reason. It is far from being the only reason. There are parts of the state where people do these things and yet COVID is still bad.

  • @Max23 said:

    >

    so Italy and Nippon aren't democratic, aha, rofl
    have a nice day

    Managed democracy doesn't mean you're not democratic, it simply means that you have less democracy and the political process is manipulated in some fashion so popular will is frustrated. Putin's Russia is a classic example. They have elections, Putin's government are actually pretty popular, but the media is heavily controlled by Putin and their allies, and the law can be used to suppress threats, while there is often quite a bit of electoral fraud.

    Japan had a single party in power until 1992, and that party still dominates the political landscape (also a fair bit of power exists in the civil service, where democratic will is unable to have much influence). Italy is, well, Italy. You had military intelligence agencies carrying out bombings/assassinations during the 70s, various machinations to keep the communists out of power, all the deals made with the mafia. That culminated in the scandals of the early 90s which resulted in Berlusconi taking power. Berlusconi was of course a huge powerful (and rich) media magnate who used it to put himself, and keep himself, in power. Italy's a bit better now I guess, but it's still Italy.

    A country that's heading towards managed democracy is the UK. Hungary is already there I guess.

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  • @cian said:

    California is also a one party state, with a terrible (and hugely expensive) hospital system and inadequate infrastructure. These things are the responsibility of the Democrats. Covid has raged through the prison system (and escaped it to communities outside), and again that's due to the Democrats. Restaurants have in many situations remained open (along with things like clubs etc) due again to the politicians, who are mostly Democrats. Businesses have been allowed to operate in an unhealthy fashion due to, you guessed it.

    Sorry. I couldn’t disagree with you more.

    While California appears to outsiders as totally blue, geographically it is far from it. Los Angeles, San Francisco/San Jose and parts of Sacramento have the majority of the population and are “Blue,” San Diego and the thousands of other cities and unincorporated areas that make up the vast majority of acerage in the state are deep “Red.” (Same goes for the state of New York).

    Red Californians have collected nearly enough signatures to recall Gov. Newsom. They made Ronnie RayGun Governor, just as they did repubs Arnold Schwarzenegger (twice! 🙄) George Deukmejian, and Pete Wilson.

    Ronnie eliminated metal health hospitals and programs in the state (then again nationally as president). If you examine our extraordinarily overcrowded prison populations, they are packed with thousands of mental pantients who have been determined "a threat to themselves or others." Ronnie also privatized prisons because government was too "inefficient" — those private prison stocks provide an excellent return on investment. I highly recommend you buy some. They certainly don't waste their profits on actually caring for prisoners.

    As @espiegel123 stated, the vast majority of rural Californian governments are deep red. The have fought every attempt to combat the virus.

    Worse yet, the vast majority of county sheriffs are also repubs and absolutely refuse to enforce any COVID restriction order. I always thought law enforcement's duty was to "protect and serve" the public. Apparently they only enforce the laws they agree with. Thank god murder is still a crime they are willing to enforce.

    They refuse to enforce mandatory close orders at restaurants, bars and night clubs, fitness centers and any other business.

    People from the big blue cities go to the rural areas to "escape" from the virus, not knowing the infection rates per 10,000 residents are much higher here than there.

    As for your complaint about the "terrible (and hugely expensive) hospital system," what system in America isn't??? I've lived all over this once great nation of mine and never discovered a reasonably priced hospital.

    Enjoy the next four years. Hopefully we'll finally get affordable healthcare and not the endless lies of the failing current administration.

  • @SimonSomeone said:
    The insidious threat on the left side is that the Critical Theory understanding of the world has thoroughly spread through all the humanities, which is most of the people who run things, including educators, and now it is the default position on the intellectual left.

    I'm guessing you probably can't define what 'critical theory' is, but regardless this is nonsense. It's been most successful in English and things like women's studies, but it's use is pretty limited in most of social studies/arts.

    This is partly what left a gap for Trump to arrive as the Democrats abandoned its traditional role as speaking for the working class and the disadvantaged generally, and only caring about various intersectional minorities and the tech companies.

    While I'm no fan of the Democrats, Trump was most successful among wealthier voters and small business men. Also most working class people are minorities and Trump did not do particularly well with the working class - if we're defining working class by income (in the US it's often defined using education, which is why you hear about working class car dealership owners).

    And these ideologies are now the air that people breathe, they don't even notice they are a specific thing that is opposed the liberal (small L liberal) world view that has slowly but steadily increased all areas of human rights, despite its multiple failures and hypocrisies, historic and present.

    I mean they're not part of the air I breathe...

    If you see modern young far leftists in action it's scarily similar (not the same, but reminiscent none-the-less) to the attitudes of the Maoist Red Guard.

    And the threat from that side I would say is actually greater than the threat from the right. No-one in the reasonable right, as the actions of many of the Republicans demonstrated yesterday, is behind what happened.

    The same Republicans who've been questioning the validity of the election for almost a year, but when a riot broke out in their workplace, suddenly realized they may have pushed it too far? Those reasonable Republicans?

    Whereas many of the powerful people on the left are fully onboard with the divisive aspects of what I guess I would call wokeness, or the Social Justice movement (and yes I'm not diminishing the importance of social justice, with small letters).

    If by Social Justice you mean treating people with courtesy and respect, then sure I'm for it. Most of what is described as defending free speech, seems to mostly be white people defending their right to be an asshole to others.

    Terrible social orders have happened in may times and places around the world, and they can come from either side, as Russia learned last century. And they could happen again.

    I feel like there was a terrible social order in the US. Confederate something? Do you ever hear of that? Jim Crow something? Ring any bells?

    I know some see wokeness as maybe a continuation of the civil rights movements, but I think that is an error, despite many good intentions being in evidence. Here's an example of the kind of thing I'm talking about, it's only 7 minutes, and it's from the leftist Vox so it has good credentials. This is what I'm scared of.

    Vox is centerist, if that matters - but this video actually came from Vice News. One of the founders of Vice news (Gavin McInnes who is no longer with them) founded the Proud Boys, though they seem to veer all over the ideological spectrum with their output.

    Bret Weinstein can claim he used to be on the left I guess - but since that controversy he's allied himself with some pretty far right people, while the controversy itself was stupid. It seemed to be him defending his right to be a dick. Which I guess you can do, but it's hard to respect the man.

  • so many detractors and excuses to make for the status quo of inequality in America, and so little time...

    -Trumptifa Scum

  • @SNystrom said:

    Who runs California? Who appoints judges? Who controls the legislature? It's the Democrats (and the same is true of New York). And Ronald Reagan was governor from 1967 to 1975. That's 45 years ago. I'm aware that Orange county Republicans are a thing - but they don't run the state.

    They refuse to enforce mandatory close orders at restaurants, bars and night clubs, fitness centers and any other business.

    Democratic controlled cities also have a COVID problem. Clearly it isn't just the rural sheriffs that are causing this.

    People from the big blue cities go to the rural areas to "escape" from the virus, not knowing the infection rates per 10,000 residents are much higher here than there.

    Most people in California live in cities, so I feel this doesn't explain it.

    As for your complaint about the "terrible (and hugely expensive) hospital system," what system in America isn't??? I've lived all over this once great nation of mine and never discovered a reasonably priced hospital.

    California's is one of the worst.

  • @Max23 said:

    Excuse me,
    You compare Italy with Russia. That’s a brainfart. ;)

    Me - Russia has elections and so does Italy.
    You - that's a brainfart.

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  • @cian: I am sorry man. But your downplaying the role of people spreading the virus by ignoring safe behavior guidelines and laws as the primary driver of the pandemic is way off. Until everyone is vaccinated, the spread of the virus can only be stopped with the co-operation of the people no matter what laws one puts in place.

    The MAGA crowd which -- despite your contention -- is a considerable percentage of California's population (despite being a minority). Their refusal to social distance, mask, etc is not merely a contributing factor -- it is a very important factor. It seems that you are trivializing this.

  • Yup, @cian. Deep Blue California dems are in total control of the state:

  • You claim you're opposed to both parties, but the vast majority of you comments show sympathy to right-wing extremists.

    Just so you know, I have no party affiliation and am not a fan of either. However, the repubs over my lifetime have become increasingly intolerant of basic human rights.

  • @SNystrom said:
    Yup, @cian. Deep Blue California dems are in total control of the state:

    Unless I’ve missed something these protestors aren’t the one who run the state, pass laws, prosecute criminals, administrate state offices, run public health etc.

  • Well, I and others have attempted to explain to you how Dems are only in control of the few metropolitan areas of the state and repubs control the vast majority of the state geographically, but you seem incapable of comprehending that fact.

    Why beat a dead horse when the democracy of our entire nation is at stake.

    Truly feel sorry for you missing the big picture...

    I should be surprised — but I'm not.

  • @SNystrom said:
    You claim you're opposed to both parties, but the vast majority of you comments show sympathy to right-wing extremists.

    If you’re referring to me then I don’t think I’ve shown any sympathy to them. I think it’s important to understand them, but if you think that’s the same as sympathy I don’t what to tell you.

    I think the Republican party is becoming a party that if not fascist, is certainly incorporating fascistic elements. In comparison most political parties would look good, but the Democrats are still corrupt, right wing and bad at running things. I'll pick them every time if that's the choice - but I would also have chosen Mussolini over Hitler, so I'm not sure that's a huge endorsement. The Democratic party won't fix anything, but they are at least a slower ride to hell.

    Just so you know, I have no party affiliation and am not a fan of either. However, the repubs over my lifetime have become increasingly intolerant of basic human rights.

    I’m pretty left wing.

  • At last we agree on something! 🙃

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  • The director of the Capitol Police has announced his resignation — like that does any good after the fact.

    I'm hopeful they will wait until Donnie is gone to arrest anyone. Breaking into the Capitol is a federal felony. As long as Dictator Donnie is in power, he'll have the ability to pardon each and every one of them.

  • @SNystrom said:
    The director of the Capitol Police has announced his resignation — like that does any good after the fact.

    I'm hopeful they will wait until Donnie is gone to arrest anyone. Breaking into the Capitol is a federal felony. As long as Dictator Donnie is in power, he'll have the ability to pardon each and every one of them.

    I think they would have to be prosecuted first and that wont happen in 14 days. I dont think he can pardon arrests, only convictions.

  • @SNystrom said:
    The director of the Capitol Police has announced his resignation — like that does any good after the fact.

    I'm hopeful they will wait until Donnie is gone to arrest anyone. Breaking into the Capitol is a federal felony. As long as Dictator Donnie is in power, he'll have the ability to pardon each and every one of them.

    He doesn’t give a shit about any of them - they’re just pawns to him.

  • edited January 8

    @Max23 said:
    It’s totally absurd. They didn’t even arrest everybody in the building that didn’t belong there. 🤬

    Well cut em some slack. They never meant any harm, this was like comic con for redneck crazies.

  • Article II, Section 2 of the U.S. Constitution lays out the scope of the Presidential Pardon. It authorizes the President “to grant Reprieves and Pardons for Offenses against the United States, except in Cases of Impeachment.”
    RELATED: VERIFY: What's a pardon, and how does it work?

    Experts agree it’s one of the broadest constitutional powers, and in the case of Wednesday’s siege of the Capitol, President Trump could pardon the entire mob.
    “He can pardon either individual members or groups of people for any federal offense, period, full stop,” Professor Frank Bowman said. “From jaywalking on a federal street to treason.”
    Capital University law professor Dan Kobil agreed with Bowman, saying there really aren't restrictions to his authority when it comes to federal offenses.
    “The President has the authority to pardon any person who violated any federal laws on that date,” Kobil said. “He could even pardon the bomb-makers.”

  • @LinearLineman said:
    @Littlewoodg, I’m in Savannah. After my return from Istanbul I reunited here with my exwife who is now my girlfriend.... living life in reverse I hope to cheat death.

    Let me know if the reverse approach is working, I’ve been ruminating over an ex

This discussion has been closed.