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O.T.: An extraordinarily dark day in American history...

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  • @Max23 said:
    How could they be not prepared for this?
    I could smell trouble across the ocean.

    Sheesh, my Dad up here in Canada called this exact scenario months ago. No psychic powers or anything.

  • edited January 7

    @Max23 said:
    How could they be not prepared for this?
    I could smell trouble across the ocean.

    Im sure half the police in the area were ummmm out of uniform and "on vacation" that day surely nowhere near the Capitol. In the immortal words of Saint De La Rocha.... do I even need to say it?

  • @espiegel123 said:

    While it is true that the U.S. has a reprehensible of interfering with the politics of other countries and undermining democracies, let’s not go down the path of acting like it is alone in this or pretending that Russia (and the Soviet Union before it) and China (to a lesser extent ... largely for practical reasons) have not been active players in the game of undermining governments whose policies we don’t like or subverting democracy game.

    The USA is far in the lead on this one. The next two countries I would guess are probably the UK and France. Russia hasn't subverted that many democracies, and most of that was 1945-1950. I can't think of a single country where China has interfered in elections, or supported a coup. Can you give an example (Hong Kong doesn't count as it's part of China, so that falls into the category of internal repression)?

    As far as American politics, while both parties are highly flawed, this “they are all equally corrupt and more or less the same” encourages people not to participate and undermines the possibility of improving things on the ground.

    The Republican part is a hugely corrupt proto-fascist party that relies upon racism and religious theocracy to uphold a grotesque political and economic system. The Democratic party is a hugely corrupt party that upholds a grotesque political and economy system, and in most countries would be seen as a fairly right wing party (in some countries they would be THE right wing party). Yes there's a coalition of sorts, but the left/labor and other bits are largely powerless.

    There's a distinction, but the Democratic party only looks good because it's compared to the Republican party. It is not good, it's simply less awful.

    Change will be incremental...and change for the better won’t be possible at all if people essentially encourage others to disengage because “both parties are imperfect”.

    Change isn't going to come through voting. It will come through political organization, and maybe as a result of that organization activists will be able to run their own candidates. But anyone who thinks voting for the Democrats will fix things is deluding themselves I'm afraid. The model for change is either the activism of the 1920s/30s, or the civil rights movement. Yes voting against Republicans can delay things for a bit, but it's only delaying things. It's not nothing, but it's not going to save us. At best it might buy time/space to do other things which might save us.

    Yes, the Democrats are deeply flawed. At the same time, we wouldn’t have hundreds of thousands dead and an out-of-control pandemic if we didn’t have the part of science-deniers in power — a party that has actively sought to sow doubt in knowledge and reason for years and has encouraged people to reject the practices that would make containing the virus possible.

    In New York and California we have seen distrastrous responses to the pandemic. Yes the Republicans are really bad in places like Georgia and Florida, but that is the ONLY reason that the Democrats look good. Cuomo deliberately infected old people's homes in order to try and reduce pressure on hospitals (a pressure that only existed because of his policies). He's currently sabotaging the roll out of the vaccine due to micro-management.

    The US was always going to have a bad response to Covid due to it having a terrible healthcare system (a healthcare system is more than hospitals - not that US hospitals are that great), very poor administrative capacity, little social support, rubbish infrastructure and a political system that makes it very hard to work out who's responsible for things embedded in a cultural space that frankly rewards idiocy. Trump made things worse, but things would have been bad regardless.

  • @Max23 said:
    How could they be not prepared for this?
    I could smell trouble across the ocean.

    Yeah... here in Brazil we already expect the followers of our current president to do the same. After all, he's the Igor to your Dracula/Dr.Frankenstein

  • @BiancaNeve said:

    NPR have an interesting take on it - the level of policing was set by the DC mayor , who called in the National Guard to take care of parking and the like - almost like they WANTED a riot....

    Hmm, maybe to a degree, but aspects of that story don't really make any sense. Why would a black Democratic mayor be soft on the far right? Why was the lowest level of policing that I can remember ever seeing in Washington? Cops tend to have a huge amount of flexibility on how they respond to these things, and I wonder how much this was people on high deciding that if the mayor wanted to do 'light touch' they'd show her (and maybe BLM supporting congress members) what light touch can look like.

    Another possibility is that the police leadership just underestimated the protestors because they tend to think the problems are far left agitators (whatever that means), rather than people whose world-view probably is fairly similar to their own.

  • edited January 7

    @Moderndaycompiler said:
    Meanwhile last summer we saw this for BLM protests...

    Clear differences between the two events, but I don't think it's as simple as yelling 'racism'.

  • @cian said:

    .......

    Too much to unroll and respond to in your take on Russia and China and their work undermining democracies (both foreign and the voice of the people in their own country).

    The notion that political organizing can have any impact if it doesn't also involve voting is hard to fathom. While change is woefully and painfully slow -- I would argue that while the civil rights and voting rights act were insufficient -- they significantly changed people's lives. Without electing people willing to enact that legislation, those changes wouldn't happen.

    In New York and California we have seen distrastrous responses to the pandemic. Yes the Republicans are really bad in places like Georgia and Florida, but that is the ONLY reason that the Democrats look good. Cuomo deliberately infected old people's homes in order to try and reduce pressure on hospitals (a pressure that only existed because of his policies). He's currently sabotaging the roll out of the vaccine due to micro-management.

    The US was always going to have a bad response to Covid due to it having a terrible healthcare system (a healthcare system is more than hospitals - not that US hospitals are that great), very poor administrative capacity, little social support, rubbish infrastructure and a political system that makes it very hard to work out who's responsible for things embedded in a cultural space that frankly rewards idiocy. Trump made things worse, but things would have been bad regardless.

    The response in California has been insufficient -- but let's be quite clear -- the American right's consistent push to get people to reject the behaviors required to contain the virus is a huge part of the failures everywhere. When a significant minority of the population refuse to participate in safe practices, it makes containment impossible. That 30-40% of the population that believe the pandemic is a hoax and that mask-wearing is evil make it virtually impossible to be successful. The Federal government refusing to provide the economic means for people to stay home is a major problem, too.

    Gavin Newsom has been far from perfect, but a large part of what is happening in California is the result of that part of the population choosing to reject safe behavior -- and the American right has worked hard to undermine belief in science or the value of social distancing, wearing masks, etc.

    Yeah, we have terrible health care but countries with even worse health care where people listen to their public health authorities have fared a lot better.

  • @knewspeak said:

    @BiancaNeve said:

    @audiblevideo said:

    @Max23 said:
    14 days

    It will be a lot longer than 14 days before Trump (who is the cause) and the radicalized ever become insignificant - if ever.

    I think Trump is a symptom rather than the cause.

    True, but he tried to fix the election, he asked the Vice President to not declare the result, then incited the crowd to ‘show strength’ to stop the declaration, he has blood on his hands, along with Donald Jr, Eric and Rudy Giuliani, along with the media that supports their cause.
    Still it’s Trump first, Trump first.

    Trump is 100% responsible. But you have to remember there has been 30 years of trump talk see Rush Limbaugh and talk radio hucksters as well as a rise of the 3percenters, sovereign citizens, Bundy Ranch bullshit etc...

    These are the same people who see conspiracies around every corner - literal and political flat earthers xenophobes and racists.

    If we don’t address the inequities economic and opportunity as well as some sort of media reform and deprogramming another Trump will happen... there’s already several waiting in line.

  • Everyone has their theories and knows “The truth” about who is subverting who and what the deep state is and how corrupt everyone is. How about we start with something simple, like “Don’t be violent, be caring towards others,” and “Tell the truth even when it is the hard thing to do?” Realizing we all exist in a system with each other and thinking about there welfare of others isn’t socialism or any ism, it’s just kindness and being human. That doesn’t mean handouts for everyone, but it might mean, to reverse quote NJ’s former governor, not needing to “Squeeze all of the juice from the orange.”

    It’s ok to have what you need and leave some for others. There will always be people who make more money than someone else, who are stronger than someone else, more talented in an area than someone else, etc. But as a system, it can all fit together.

    I don’t want to be preachy, so I’ll stop. But be kind to someone, that’s a start. I’m not referring to anyone in particular here or anywhere, just a general thought.

  • @audiblevideo said:

    @knewspeak said:

    @BiancaNeve said:

    @audiblevideo said:

    @Max23 said:
    14 days

    It will be a lot longer than 14 days before Trump (who is the cause) and the radicalized ever become insignificant - if ever.

    I think Trump is a symptom rather than the cause.

    True, but he tried to fix the election, he asked the Vice President to not declare the result, then incited the crowd to ‘show strength’ to stop the declaration, he has blood on his hands, along with Donald Jr, Eric and Rudy Giuliani, along with the media that supports their cause.
    Still it’s Trump first, Trump first.

    Trump is 100% responsible. But you have to remember there has been 30 years of trump talk see Rush Limbaugh and talk radio hucksters as well as a rise of the 3percenters, sovereign citizens, Bundy Ranch bullshit etc...

    These are the same people who see conspiracies around every corner - literal and political flat earthers xenophobes and racists.

    If we don’t address the inequities economic and opportunity as well as some sort of media reform and deprogramming another Trump will happen... there’s already several waiting in line.

    While Trump is awful, it isn't all his doing. He has been strongly backed by his party through most of this. They could have controlled him or reigned him in at any number of junctures but chose not to -- because they recognize that he has much more ardent support among voters than the rest of the party. McConnell could have defanged Trump any number of times. Had he simply acknowledged that Biden had won the election in mid-November there couldn't have been two months of an increasing belief in the blatant lies that continue to be perpetuated about the election results.

    Trump has allowed them to achieve many of their ends without their taking responsibility. They need to be held accountable and responsible for letting Trump do this.

  • @tja said:

    @Max23 said:
    trump invited these people. he tweeted before something like come to Washington on 6th, its gonna get wild ...
    trump wanted this to happen. he provoked it. this must have consequences.

    he tries to play his usual game. drip oil into the fire and say it wasn't me.
    "stuff happens"

    This is very true.

    But so far, I heard nothing about any consequences or a new impeachment process.

    He should already be in jail, I think.

    @Gaia.Tree said:

    @Max23 said:
    How could they be not prepared for this?
    I could smell trouble across the ocean.

    Im sure half the police in the area were ummmm out of uniform and "on vacation" that day surely nowhere near the Capitol. In the immortal words of Saint De La Rocha.... do I even need to say it?

    Yesterday someone said “While the American Civil War pitted brother against brother, today’s events pitted on-duty cops against off-duty cops”

  • @jameslondon74 said:

    @Moderndaycompiler said:
    Meanwhile last summer we saw this for BLM protests...

    Clear differences between the two events, but I don't think it's as simple as yelling 'racism'.

    From the NAACP this morning:

    "When Black people protest for our lives, we are all too often met by National Guard troops or police equipped with assault rifles, shields, tear gas and battle helmets,'' the group said in a statement. "When white people attempt a coup, they are met by an underwhelming number of law enforcement personnel who act powerless to intervene, going so far as to pose for selfies with terrorists, and prevent an escalation of anarchy and violence like we witnessed today.'

    "Make no mistake, if the protesters were Black, we would have been tear-gassed, battered, and perhaps shot."

    "Double standard": Black lawmakers and activists decry police response to attack - USA TODAY
    https://apple.news/AA8nHrs2fTASCzXbgCeRYEA

  • @SNystrom said:

    @jameslondon74 said:

    @Moderndaycompiler said:
    Meanwhile last summer we saw this for BLM protests...

    Clear differences between the two events, but I don't think it's as simple as yelling 'racism'.

    From the NAACP this morning:

    "When Black people protest for our lives, we are all too often met by National Guard troops or police equipped with assault rifles, shields, tear gas and battle helmets,'' the group said in a statement. "When white people attempt a coup, they are met by an underwhelming number of law enforcement personnel who act powerless to intervene, going so far as to pose for selfies with terrorists, and prevent an escalation of anarchy and violence like we witnessed today.'

    "Make no mistake, if the protesters were Black, we would have been tear-gassed, battered, and perhaps shot."

    "Double standard": Black lawmakers and activists decry police response to attack - USA TODAY
    https://apple.news/AA8nHrs2fTASCzXbgCeRYEA

    One of the best articulations I've seen of the issue of police treatment of people of color was this Tweet I saw last night from Dr. Tye Winter:

    "We're not asking for you to shoot them like you shoot us.
    We're asking you to NOT shoot us like you don't shoot them"

  • edited January 7

    @israelite said:
    (and people who pull the strings behind the curtains are smirking as everything goes according to the plan)

    Those "behind the curtain" may indeed be smirking: (January 6th "insurrection" may have been a false flag, planned incident.)
    https://naturalnews.com/2021-01-06-staged-viking-who-stormed-capitol-building-blm.html
    FYI: Twitter has completely blocked this website's story from being posted!

    and also this: (A truly bizarre global-based, premise detailed, Google deleted this video once already)
    https://youtu.be/87yBYfokCAg
    Either this lady is a conspiracy theory whack job or she may be on to something very nefarious.

  • @IamSourceCodeX said:

    Either this lady is a conspiracy theory whack job or she may be on to something very nefarious.

    Sometimes it is both.

  • I would definitely go for “conspiracy theory whack job”

  • @Liquidmantis said:
    Which raises the question: where's @McD?

    Counting down the days remaining... 13 left.

  • @IamSourceCodeX said:

    @israelite said:
    (and people who pull the strings behind the curtains are smirking as everything goes according to the plan)

    Those "behind the curtain" may indeed be smirking: (January 6th "insurrection" may have been a false flag, planned incident.)
    https://naturalnews.com/2021-01-06-staged-viking-who-stormed-capitol-building-blm.html

    and also this: (A truly bizarre global-based, premise detailed, Google deleted this video once already)
    https://youtu.be/87yBYfokCAg
    Either this lady is a conspiracy theory whack job or she may be on to something very nefarious.

    Wow, that pixel rag has a very loose definition of “confirmed”
    However, thanks for bringing it to my attention.
    It just may fill the void that the shuttering of the Weekly World News has left in my life.

  • @michael_m said:
    I would definitely go for “conspiracy theory whack job”

    @michael_m said:
    I would definitely go for “conspiracy theory whack job”

    And you would be correct.

  • edited January 7

    @IamSourceCodeX said:

    @israelite said:
    (and people who pull the strings behind the curtains are smirking as everything goes according to the plan)

    Those "behind the curtain" may indeed be smirking: (January 6th "insurrection" may have been a false flag, planned incident.)
    https://naturalnews.com/2021-01-06-staged-viking-who-stormed-capitol-building-blm.html

    Yah there is no way viking dude isn’t just a bonkers agent of chaos who gets off on all this stuff and looks like a brilliant and trustworthy agent to be utilized for political gain.

  • @AudioGus said:

    @IamSourceCodeX said:

    @israelite said:
    (and people who pull the strings behind the curtains are smirking as everything goes according to the plan)

    Those "behind the curtain" may indeed be smirking: (January 6th "insurrection" may have been a false flag, planned incident.)
    https://naturalnews.com/2021-01-06-staged-viking-who-stormed-capitol-building-blm.html

    Yah there is no way viking dude isn’t just a bonkers agent of chaos who gets off on all this stuff and looks like a brilliant and trustworthy agent to be utilized for political gain.

    If a website run by Mike Adams says it’s true, then it must be true...

  • @michael_m said:

    @AudioGus said:

    @IamSourceCodeX said:

    @israelite said:
    (and people who pull the strings behind the curtains are smirking as everything goes according to the plan)

    Those "behind the curtain" may indeed be smirking: (January 6th "insurrection" may have been a false flag, planned incident.)
    https://naturalnews.com/2021-01-06-staged-viking-who-stormed-capitol-building-blm.html

    Yah there is no way viking dude isn’t just a bonkers agent of chaos who gets off on all this stuff and looks like a brilliant and trustworthy agent to be utilized for political gain.

    If a website run by Mike Adams says it’s true, then it must be true...

    It is kind of scary and disheartening to me that all of this stuff is perversely damned entertaining on some levels (I mean between the other layers of rage, anger, sadness). Giving all my precious clicks away on this garbage but I just cant help myself / clearly need therapy.

  • @SNystrom said:

    @jameslondon74 said:

    @Moderndaycompiler said:
    Meanwhile last summer we saw this for BLM protests...

    Clear differences between the two events, but I don't think it's as simple as yelling 'racism'.

    From the NAACP this morning:

    "When Black people protest for our lives, we are all too often met by National Guard troops or police equipped with assault rifles, shields, tear gas and battle helmets,'' the group said in a statement. "When white people attempt a coup, they are met by an underwhelming number of law enforcement personnel who act powerless to intervene, going so far as to pose for selfies with terrorists, and prevent an escalation of anarchy and violence like we witnessed today.'

    "Make no mistake, if the protesters were Black, we would have been tear-gassed, battered, and perhaps shot."

    Sure, but if they'd been anti-war or left wing they also would have been tear-gassed, battered and perhaps shot. The reason we know this is because it's happened a lot. Cops are always more lenient on right wing protestors, probably because they're also right wing.

  • @michael_m said:

    @AudioGus said:

    @IamSourceCodeX said:

    @israelite said:
    (and people who pull the strings behind the curtains are smirking as everything goes according to the plan)

    Those "behind the curtain" may indeed be smirking: (January 6th "insurrection" may have been a false flag, planned incident.)
    https://naturalnews.com/2021-01-06-staged-viking-who-stormed-capitol-building-blm.html

    Yah there is no way viking dude isn’t just a bonkers agent of chaos who gets off on all this stuff and looks like a brilliant and trustworthy agent to be utilized for political gain.

    If a website run by Mike Adams says it’s true, then it must be true...

    🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣😂😂😂😂😂😂😂🤣🤣😂😂
    He’s the Jenny McCarthy no one ever wanted to see naked.

  • @espiegel123 said:

    While Trump is awful, it isn't all his doing. He has been strongly backed by his party through most of this. They could have controlled him or reigned him in at any number of junctures but chose not to -- because they recognize that he has much more ardent support among voters than the rest of the party. McConnell could have defanged Trump any number of times. Had he simply acknowledged that Biden had won the election in mid-November there couldn't have been two months of an increasing belief in the blatant lies that continue to be perpetuated about the election results.

    I don't want to defend the Republican party, because I think they're awful. But I don't think this is quite right. I think in a real sense the Republican party realizes it's lost control of a significant section of their base that they always took for granted and they're not sure what to do about it (some of that base also exist in state houses - as state politicians are often more extreme than the national ones). It's not the extremism that bothers them, god knows plenty of Republicans in the Bush era were equally extreme (or for that matter during the Reagan era and the 60s), it's the fact that they've rogue.

    I have no sympathy for the Republicans - this is their monster. But I don't think they're lying when they whine about getting death threats.

  • >

    and also this: (A truly bizarre global-based, premise detailed, Google deleted this video once already)
    https://youtu.be/87yBYfokCAg
    Either this lady is a conspiracy theory whack job or she may be on to something very nefarious.

    If you'd ever met any antifa types, the idea they agree enough to organize a false flag operation would seem beyond ridiculous too.

    The clues in the name. They exist to street fight fascists like the proud boys. If you're anti-antifa, I guess you're pro-fascist? A Nazi? How does this work?

  • @espiegel123 said:

    @SimonSomeone said:
    Polarised people on either side are dangerous. Today's right wing idiots, the anarchist thugs rioting for months in Portland (after dark, when the peaceful protestors and media have left) etc. People were shot there too in violence at the autonomous zone.

    The rhetoric of both-sidesism is erroneous. In the U.S. there are not two equally large and equally irrational parties in opposition. The American right has drifted very far to the right. People called moderate now, would have been considered fringe reactionaries 25 years ago. The pandemic has laid bare the American right’s drift from reasonableness.

    There are not large numbers of anarchist thugs on the left. The American right strongly supports Trump with only a minority of dissenters and is a far greater threat to the polity.

    There is no parity.

    I see this as an example of being only shown one side of the story. It's probably what I would have thought a few years ago. I would say that the nature of the threat is very different between the far left and the far right.

    The insidious threat on the left side is that the Critical Theory understanding of the world has thoroughly spread through all the humanities, which is most of the people who run things, including educators, and now it is the default position on the intellectual left. This is partly what left a gap for Trump to arrive as the Democrats abandoned its traditional role as speaking for the working class and the disadvantaged generally, and only caring about various intersectional minorities and the tech companies. And these ideologies are now the air that people breathe, they don't even notice they are a specific thing that is opposed the liberal (small L liberal) world view that has slowly but steadily increased all areas of human rights, despite its multiple failures and hypocrisies, historic and present.

    If you see modern young far leftists in action it's scarily similar (not the same, but reminiscent none-the-less) to the attitudes of the Maoist Red Guard. And the threat from that side I would say is actually greater than the threat from the right. No-one in the reasonable right, as the actions of many of the Republicans demonstrated yesterday, is behind what happened. Whereas many of the powerful people on the left are fully onboard with the divisive aspects of what I guess I would call wokeness, or the Social Justice movement (and yes I'm not diminishing the importance of social justice, with small letters). Terrible social orders have happened in may times and places around the world, and they can come from either side, as Russia learned last century. And they could happen again.

    I know some see wokeness as maybe a continuation of the civil rights movements, but I think that is an error, despite many good intentions being in evidence. Here's an example of the kind of thing I'm talking about, it's only 7 minutes, and it's from the leftist Vox so it has good credentials. This is what I'm scared of.

    I'd also like to say thank you @espiegel123 for your reasonable response to my post. Calm discussion is very important in these times is super important, though it's easier and feels better to call out someone for dissenting. There will always be people on the right, and we have to live in the same world as them. And as always, I'm always open to learning more. Our worldviews should be open to change as we discover new information or find biases within ourselves.

  • @espiegel123 said:

    @cian said:

    .......

    Too much to unroll and respond to in your take on Russia and China and their work undermining democracies (both foreign and the voice of the people in their own country).

    You were talking about foreign subversion of electoral democracy. And Russia isn't great, but it's not that much worse than Italy and certainly better than Turkey or Ukraine.

    The notion that political organizing can have any impact if it doesn't also involve voting is hard to fathom. While change is woefully and painfully slow -- I would argue that while the civil rights and voting rights act were insufficient -- they significantly changed people's lives. Without electing people willing to enact that legislation, those changes wouldn't happen.

    I didn't say people shouldn't vote, I just said it isn't going to fix anything or achieve much. The Georgia senate (and electoral college votes) were only won because of hard political organizing. Without that work Georgia would still be Republican. You want electoral victories, you need serious political organizing. And plenty of victories have been won (and continue to be won) solely through mass power (that was only possible because of mass organizing). And in all kinds of places (New York, California), lots of Democrats are DINO. And the only way to replace them is through political organization.

    Political organizing is hard work, boring and frustrating. But without it not much will be achieved.

    The response in California has been insufficient -- but let's be quite clear -- the American right's consistent push to get people to reject the behaviors required to contain the virus is a huge part of the failures everywhere. When a significant minority of the population refuse to participate in safe practices, it makes containment impossible. That 30-40% of the population that believe the pandemic is a hoax and that mask-wearing is evil make it virtually impossible to be successful.

    Yes the right has been far worse, I don't deny it. I simply find the idea that the Democrats have been remotely up to the job ludicrous given the facts available to us. One of the worst failures was in New York, yet Democrats laud Cuomo (an awful thug of a man) as some kind of hero. Many of the issues have been around things like closing schools and restaurants, and plenty of Democrats have been resistant to those things too.

    The Federal government refusing to provide the economic means for people to stay home is a major problem, too.

    Sure, but a lot of Democrats have also been resistant to this, while Trump (bizarrely) actually pushed for it at various points. Other countries have welfare states. The US used to have (and inadequate) one, and the Democrats are part of the reason why it doesn't really anymore.

    Gavin Newsom has been far from perfect, but a large part of what is happening in California is the result of that part of the population choosing to reject safe behavior -- and the American right has worked hard to undermine belief in science or the value of social distancing, wearing masks, etc.

    California is also a one party state, with a terrible (and hugely expensive) hospital system and inadequate infrastructure. These things are the responsibility of the Democrats. Covid has raged through the prison system (and escaped it to communities outside), and again that's due to the Democrats. Restaurants have in many situations remained open (along with things like clubs etc) due again to the politicians, who are mostly Democrats. Businesses have been allowed to operate in an unhealthy fashion due to, you guessed it.

    Yeah, we have terrible health care but countries with even worse health care where people listen to their public health authorities have fared a lot better.

    The US barely has public health care. It has a patchy hospital system (good if you have money in some places, bad in some, non-existant in other places), very little in the way of community healthcare (public vaccination programs, public health programs, community nurses/programs, etc). Doesn't have national statistics on health issues, or proper monitoring of what's happening in national hospitals. There are plenty of low income countries that do have these things, despite not being able to afford particularly good hospitals, or fancy robots.

    Also the US health authorities lied on a couple of things (e.g. masks at the beginning of the pandemic) which doesn't exactly create trust.

  • @SimonSomeone said:

    @espiegel123 said:

    @SimonSomeone said:
    Polarised people on either side are dangerous. Today's right wing idiots, the anarchist thugs rioting for months in Portland (after dark, when the peaceful protestors and media have left) etc. People were shot there too in violence at the autonomous zone.

    The rhetoric of both-sidesism is erroneous. In the U.S. there are not two equally large and equally irrational parties in opposition. The American right has drifted very far to the right. People called moderate now, would have been considered fringe reactionaries 25 years ago. The pandemic has laid bare the American right’s drift from reasonableness.

    There are not large numbers of anarchist thugs on the left. The American right strongly supports Trump with only a minority of dissenters and is a far greater threat to the polity.

    There is no parity.

    I see this as an example of being only shown one side of the story. It's probably what I would have thought a few years ago. I would say that the nature of the threat is very different between the far left and the far right.

    The insidious threat on the left side is that the Critical Theory understanding of the world has thoroughly spread through all the humanities, which is most of the people who run things, including educators, and now it is the default position on the intellectual left. This is partly what left a gap for Trump to arrive as the Democrats abandoned its traditional role as speaking for the working class and the disadvantaged generally, and only caring about various intersectional minorities and the tech companies. And these ideologies are now the air that people breathe, they don't even notice they are a specific thing that is opposed the liberal (small L liberal) world view that has slowly but steadily increased all areas of human rights, despite its multiple failures and hypocrisies, historic and present.

    If you see modern young far leftists in action it's scarily similar (not the same, but reminiscent none-the-less) to the attitudes of the Maoist Red Guard. And the threat from that side I would say is actually greater than the threat from the right. No-one in the reasonable right, as the actions of many of the Republicans demonstrated yesterday, is behind what happened. Whereas many of the powerful people on the left are fully onboard with the divisive aspects of what I guess I would call wokeness, or the Social Justice movement (and yes I'm not diminishing the importance of social justice, with small letters). Terrible social orders have happened in may times and places around the world, and they can come from either side, as Russia learned last century. And they could happen again.

    I know some see wokeness as maybe a continuation of the civil rights movements, but I think that is an error, despite many good intentions being in evidence. Here's an example of the kind of thing I'm talking about, it's only 7 minutes, and it's from the leftist Vox so it has good credentials. This is what I'm scared of.

    I'd also like to say thank you @espiegel123 for your reasonable response to my post. Calm discussion is very important in these times is super important, though it's easier and feels better to call out someone for dissenting. There will always be people on the right, and we have to live in the same world as them. And as always, I'm always open to learning more. Our worldviews should be open to change as we discover new information or find biases within ourselves.

    I am sorry. I feel like you are implying that there is an equal number of people on the far right and far left in the U.S. This just isn't true. So, when one draws examples from far left people with objectionable views and compare those view to right-wing views that are held by a significantly larger portion of the population it creates a false impression.

    What has been happening in the U.S. is that views that were formerly considered extremist right-wing views have come to be held by a growing percentage of the population. There has not been an equivalent drift to the left. If anything, the American left has for the most part moved to the center.

    There is a lot of talk about the American left's refusal to compromise with the right -- as if compromise is always a good thing. It isn't. One of the major failures of the American left has been compromising and negotiating with people that won't reciprocate the good faith. I fear the the next decades will be difficult ones in the U.S. until demographics make preservation of white privilege practically untenable. Things will only get worse due to the bizarre way our Federal government is constructed. It is currently possible for a Senate majority (which controls our Federal judiciary and is required for approval of any major legislation) to be won by states with less than 40% of the population. Over the next couple of decades, as the population grows in the less reactionary states (which is the ongoing trend) this will become worse. And it will likely be possible for a right-wing Senate majority to exist that represents only 30% of the population.

    This structural weakness puts little pressure on the far right in America to compromise.

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