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O.T.: An extraordinarily dark day in American history...

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Comments

  • @fprintf said:

    I do not know what the solution is.

    What would you say the problem is?

  • Is this discussion really necessary on an audio technology and music forum?

  • @espiegel123 said:

    @michael_m said:
    Please let’s not go down the “why do so many Americans own guns?” path, as that’s a whole new rabbit hole to go down. That won’t change as the right is enshrined in th Second Amendment, and...it’s complicated...

    Let’s focus on rational discussion of the events of yesterday rather than follow these tangents.

    The second amendment does not enshrine a personal right to gun ownership. This is is a post-Civil War notion. The second amendment is about a state's right to have armed militias over which the Federal govt has no jurisdiction. The reason is not a noble one. States where enslaving people was legal had armed militias whose purpose was preventing rebellions by enslaved people. Those states wanted a guarantee that the Federal standing army established in the Constitution would not interfere with these militias .

    I agree, but the Supreme Court has upheld arguments that it supports personal gun ownership 3 times now, so that interpretation is here to stay for the time being at least.

    Like I said, it’s complicated...

  • @AudioGus said:
    BTW, not for the faint of heart but this fellow claims to be the one who shot and posted the videos of the shooting here. The time of the post and number of views seemed to check out to me but not 100% sure he didnt just repost it.

    https://twitter.com/TaylerUSA

    He’s generally not a credible source.

    Here’s the most clear footage I have been able to find. You can clearly see her breach the inner barricade despite repeated warnings. She is taken down with a single efficient shot (despite myself, I was impressed by the finesse displayed)
    https://www.reddit.com/r/PublicFreakout/comments/ks8gtj/clearest_view_of_a_terrorist_attempting_to_breach/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf

  • edited January 7

    @espiegel123 said:

    @michael_m said:
    Please let’s not go down the “why do so many Americans own guns?” path, as that’s a whole new rabbit hole to go down. That won’t change as the right is enshrined in th Second Amendment, and...it’s complicated...

    Let’s focus on rational discussion of the events of yesterday rather than follow these tangents.

    The second amendment does not enshrine a personal right to gun ownership. This is is a post-Civil War notion. The second amendment is about a state's right to have armed militias over which the Federal govt has no jurisdiction. The reason is not a noble one. States where enslaving people was legal had armed militias whose purpose was preventing rebellions by enslaved people. Those states wanted a guarantee that the Federal standing army established in the Constitution would not interfere with these militias .

    There are letters between the authors of the Constitution that make this explicit --primarily between James Madison, Patrick Henry and George Mason.

    The 2nd Amendment is not borne of a noble notion of a right to self-defense.

    Sadly, this relates to yesterday's right wing violence and the ongoing efforts of the American right to prevent people of African descent from having their full rights and voice in the polity. Even those in the GOP that opposed yesterday's rebellion overwhelmingly favor laws that essentially restrict the right of Black people to vote. They simply prefer not to use such overtly violent means to achieve their ends.The majority of Republicans in Congress yesterday voted to overturn a free and fair election. Those people and their supporters will continue to pursue laws that make it harder for African Americans to vote and achieve representation. This is not a secret. They say it out loud.

    Solid historical background.
    I can add that the current radical interpretation of 2nd amendment as a personal right to self defense was enshrined into case law in decision written by Antonin Scalia in the ‘80s. Scalia was mentor to Amy Barrett, the last Trump court appointee. (And it is in the Supreme Court that voter suppression can and may well be written into legal precedent.)

  • @sambo said:
    Is this discussion really necessary on an audio technology and music forum?

    It's marked OT and in the Off-Topic forum. While it's an uncomfortable topic, it's definitely not necessary to click the link and read it.

  • The user and all related content has been deleted.
  • edited January 7

    Oops! Wrong thread.

  • The user and all related content has been deleted.
  • @JanKun said:
    America is usually very proud to have brought democracy to the world.

    The US has subverted more democracies than any other country in the world. It made me laugh when liberals would complain about the (probably fictional) Russian stuff, and were unaware that the US supported (and aided) Yeltsin's coup in the 90s.

    Also the US is not very democratic. Sorry, but it's just not. Never had been, wasn't even intended to be. Massive voter suppression is a fact in every election, and any system where you have elected officials supervising elections is always going to be extremely suspect. Want to start a third party in the US - there are laws on the books in most states deliberately designed to make it extremely difficult. Other countries look at the amount of money spent on US elections with disbelief. Other countries look at the ways in which corporations are able to bribe, sorry donate to, politicians with similar disbelief. The presidential election was close, yet Biden won with 55% of the vote. The senate and the house were barely captured by Democrats, despite the fact that in every election far more Americans vote Democrat. Very few Americans vote in elections. US politicians leave congress hugely richer than when they went in - though for some reason nobody calls that corruption.

    None of what is happening now is good, though it remains to be seen whether this is the start of something like the BJP in India, or simply the dying gasp of baby boomers - but the idea that this is a perversion of US democracy is silly. The system was already very broken. Biden ain't going to fix nothing. Democrats are part of, and benefit from, a broken system.

  • edited January 7

    @Liquidmantis said:
    It's a tragedy, no doubt. I personally wouldn't break into a federal building, especially the Capitol, because I'd expect to be shot. I'm only surprised there weren't more.

    Same here.

    @JeffChasteen said:

    @AudioGus said:
    BTW, not for the faint of heart but this fellow claims to be the one who shot and posted the videos of the shooting here. The time of the post and number of views seemed to check out to me but not 100% sure he didnt just repost it.

    https://twitter.com/TaylerUSA

    He’s generally not a credible source.

    Ahh, you can see who recorded that video on twitter in this video you posted but they have a red hat on so cant confirm if it was that twit or not. Kind of weird/scary that someone would lie about being a terrorist and brand themselves as such but this is the world we live in eh? Gotta get them upvotes! So whether it is or not them... stunning stupidity either way.

    Oh and some woman was shot. Sucks to be so desensitized to this stuff now.

  • edited January 7

    @Max23 said:

    @sambo said:
    Is this discussion really necessary on an audio technology and music forum?

    Yes. Because this isn’t politics as usual.

    Yah. Too soon. ;)

    PS. i’ll burn out on it and start whining for the ‘hide thread’ button in a couple days.

  • The user and all related content has been deleted.
  • For anyone in America this can’t (and shouldn’t) be swept under the rug. If we don’t make changes now they’re never going to be made.

  • @Max23 said:

    @dendy said:
    this broke me into subatomic particles :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

    so #much #true

    What’s the building? Library of congress?
    I’m an Europlant.

    Federal Reserve Bank

  • edited January 7
    The user and all related content has been deleted.
  • @michael_m said:
    For anyone in America this can’t (and shouldn’t) be swept under the rug. If we don’t make changes now they’re never going to be made.

    What needs to be changed? Crazy people feeding each others delusions online? Free mental health meds? Sounds like pinko doctor talk to me.

  • edited January 7

    @michael_m said:
    For anyone in America this can’t (and shouldn’t) be swept under the rug. If we don’t make changes now they’re never going to be made.

    Exactly. I've always been apolitical. I have deep moral and ethical convictions, but don't feel those align with the actuality of politics. This was the first time I voted. A huge contributing factor to the state of today is that people want to bury their heads in the sand instead of discussing and addressing the issues.

    For a lot of people, this is their community and the current chaos needs community support and discourse.

    (Which raises the question: where's @McD?)

  • I just think Donnie needs to stop listening to Gil Scott Heron.

  • The user and all related content has been deleted.
  • @LinearLineman
    So you are also a son of Georgia? Whereabouts? I was born in Rome, GA., and (as of yesterday) proud of it

  • @espiegel123 said:

    >

    Here’s the most clear footage I have been able to find. You can clearly see her breach the inner barricade despite repeated warnings. She is taken down with a single efficient shot (despite myself, I was impressed by the finesse displayed)
    https://www.reddit.com/r/PublicFreakout/comments/ks8gtj/clearest_view_of_a_terrorist_attempting_to_breach/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf

    Good find. She certainly was doing those things, though there was no need to kill her.

  • edited January 7

    @Littlewoodg, I’m in Savannah. After my return from Istanbul I reunited here with my exwife who is now my girlfriend.... living life in reverse I hope to cheat death.

  • @michael_m said:
    For anyone in America this can’t (and shouldn’t) be swept under the rug. If we don’t make changes now they’re never going to be made.

    true dat

  • @Max23 said:
    trump invited these people. he tweeted before something like come to Washington on 6th, its gonna get wild ...
    trump wanted this to happen. he provoked it. this must have consequences.

    he tries to play his usual game. drip oil into the fire and say it wasn't me.
    "stuff happens"

    This is very true.

    But so far, I heard nothing about any consequences or a new impeachment process.

    He should already be in jail, I think.

  • It seems to me the big story here, and the one that seems to be largely ignored (at least from what I've seen - would be glad to be wrong here) was the 'failure' of policing. A friend pointed out that they've been to multiple protests in DC over the years and they've never seen policing like that. There were no riot cops protecting the building, there's footage of cops just letting the protestors into the capitol. There's stuff like this tweet:
    https://twitter.com/AdrianMorrow/status/1346941412479176704

    It seems fairly clear that at best the capitol cops let the protestors in because they agreed with them, and at worst were active conspirators. One of the stories of the Trump years, which I think 2020 revealed to some degree, is that cops tend to be extremely right wing and believe whacky shit. They have been huge supporters of Trump (lots of police unions endorsed him, which is unusual). For a successful coup you need muscle - and cops have traditionally often been that source. I don't think the US is at that point, but a radicalized partisan police force (who are extremely violent, and feel victimized) is certainly a worrying trend.

  • @cian said:

    @JanKun said:
    America is usually very proud to have brought democracy to the world.

    The US has subverted more democracies than any other country in the world. It made me laugh when liberals would complain about the (probably fictional) Russian stuff, and were unaware that the US supported (and aided) Yeltsin's coup in the 90s.

    Also the US is not very democratic. Sorry, but it's just not. Never had been, wasn't even intended to be. Massive voter suppression is a fact in every election, and any system where you have elected officials supervising elections is always going to be extremely suspect. Want to start a third party in the US - there are laws on the books in most states deliberately designed to make it extremely difficult. Other countries look at the amount of money spent on US elections with disbelief. Other countries look at the ways in which corporations are able to bribe, sorry donate to, politicians with similar disbelief. The presidential election was close, yet Biden won with 55% of the vote. The senate and the house were barely captured by Democrats, despite the fact that in every election far more Americans vote Democrat. Very few Americans vote in elections. US politicians leave congress hugely richer than when they went in - though for some reason nobody calls that corruption.

    None of what is happening now is good, though it remains to be seen whether this is the start of something like the BJP in India, or simply the dying gasp of baby boomers - but the idea that this is a perversion of US democracy is silly. The system was already very broken. Biden ain't going to fix nothing. Democrats are part of, and benefit from, a broken system.

    While it is true that the U.S. has a reprehensible of interfering with the politics of other countries and undermining democracies, let’s not go down the path of acting like it is alone in this or pretending that Russia (and the Soviet Union before it) and China (to a lesser extent ... largely for practical reasons) have not been active players in the game of undermining governments whose policies we don’t like or subverting democracy game.

    As far as American politics, while both parties are highly flawed, this “they are all equally corrupt and more or less the same” encourages people not to participate and undermines the possibility of improving things on the ground.

    Change will be incremental...and change for the better won’t be possible at all if people essentially encourage others to disengage because “both parties are imperfect”.

    Yes, the Democrats are deeply flawed. At the same time, we wouldn’t have hundreds of thousands dead and an out-of-control pandemic if we didn’t have the part of science-deniers in power — a party that has actively sought to sow doubt in knowledge and reason for years and has encouraged people to reject the practices that would make containing the virus possible.

  • edited January 7

    @cian said:
    It seems to me the big story here, and the one that seems to be largely ignored (at least from what I've seen - would be glad to be wrong here) was the 'failure' of policing. A friend pointed out that they've been to multiple protests in DC over the years and they've never seen policing like that. There were no riot cops protecting the building, there's footage of cops just letting the protestors into the capitol. There's stuff like this tweet:
    https://twitter.com/AdrianMorrow/status/1346941412479176704

    It seems fairly clear that at best the capitol cops let the protestors in because they agreed with them, and at worst were active conspirators. One of the stories of the Trump years, which I think 2020 revealed to some degree, is that cops tend to be extremely right wing and believe whacky shit. They have been huge supporters of Trump (lots of police unions endorsed him, which is unusual). For a successful coup you need muscle - and cops have traditionally often been that source. I don't think the US is at that point, but a radicalized partisan police force (who are extremely violent, and feel victimized) is certainly a worrying trend.

    NPR have an interesting take on it - the level of policing was set by the DC mayor , who called in the National Guard to take care of parking and the like - almost like they WANTED a riot....

    https://www.npr.org/sections/congress-electoral-college-tally-live-updates/2021/01/07/954349992/where-was-the-security-when-a-mob-stormed-the-capitol

  • "The city's arrest sheet lists only one person as being arrested on a felony charge of violating the Riot Act: Joshua Pruitt, 39, of Washington, D.C. He was taken into custody at the Capitol building, police said.

    Protesters who violated Bowser's 6 p.m. citywide 12-hour curfew were largely dispersed from the Capitol grounds or arrested by late Wednesday.
    Contee said not all people who gained entry into the Capitol building were taken into custody.
    D.C. police will be releasing information later Thursday asking the public's help identifying individuals who breached the Capitol so that they "can be held accountable," he said.
    It's unclear whether Capitol Police arrested people who infiltrated the Capitol and have yet to report those arrests. A representative for Capitol Police didn't immediately respond to a request for information.

    Videos taken of the chaos appeared to show, at best, an unprepared police force easily overrun by rioters or, at worst, one that appeared to acquiesce to the mob. Unverified videos shared on social media showed a police officer taking selfies with some rioters who entered the Capitol, and another appeared to show officers moving barricades to allow a large crowd of people to approach the building."

This discussion has been closed.