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O.T.: An extraordinarily dark day in American history...

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Comments

  • @rs2000 said:

    Correct. Why do so many U.S. citizens own firearms?

    Insecurity?
    False confidence?
    Regardless of physical stature a gun evens out the playing field?
    Empowerment?

    These are the first things that come to mind.

  • ‘Total war’, ‘trial by combat’ ‘these are true patriots’, put these conspirators on trial.

  • Dear friends from the US, don't be too embarrassed. Probably the US is just ahead in this development. In all western democratic countries the right wing populists are on the rise, sometimes they even get into the government but at least it is now rooted in the middle of the population. Sometimes it feels like that we entered the age of the dawn of democracy. Sad and terrifying but true. So how did this happen?

    I think there was an important juncture in the late nineties and early two thousands. Probably 911 marks that point in history quite well. Since the mid/late 1970s the profits from industrial production and services declined and the western economies turned to the finance sector where better profits for the capital was still possible. But that caused growing income differences. It happened then that people started to loose their faith that democracy will make their lives better. That the next generation will be better off than yourself. Politicians noticed that optimistic visions lost their power to lead the people so they turned to lead by fear. Instead of promising a better life they promised protection from threats in the dark. The BBC series 'The Power of Nightmares' from 2004 explains this quite well. The intro still gives me goosebumps:

    That loss in faith in democracy paved the way for the rise of the populists as they seem to be the even better protectors with the easy answers to complex problems. The growing fierce competition with China also puts a huge question mark on the self claimed superiority of the western model of democracy. As a German I know from my country's history how quickly it can happen that the people elect the destroyer of democracy.

    I'm not a socialist but I think it is crucial to re-establish leadership by optimistic visions and the governments must find ways to ensure the well being of the citizens. Create opportunities, ensure justice and equal chances. Give hope and perspectives for a brighter future for everyone.

  • @audiblevideo said:

    @Max23 said:
    14 days

    It will be a lot longer than 14 days before Trump (who is the cause) and the radicalized ever become insignificant - if ever.

    I think Trump is a symptom rather than the cause.

  • @BiancaNeve said:

    @audiblevideo said:

    @Max23 said:
    14 days

    It will be a lot longer than 14 days before Trump (who is the cause) and the radicalized ever become insignificant - if ever.

    I think Trump is a symptom rather than the cause.

    True, but he tried to fix the election, he asked the Vice President to not declare the result, then incited the crowd to ‘show strength’ to stop the declaration, he has blood on his hands, along with Donald Jr, Eric and Rudy Giuliani, along with the media that supports their cause.
    Still it’s Trump first, Trump first.

  • edited January 7
    The user and all related content has been deleted.
  • @rs2000 said:

    @Gravitas said:
    Though the young woman was a Trump supporter that was no excuse for killing her.

    When the BLM protests were happening?
    There was no excuse for unmarked militia to be firing
    rubber bullets and teargas into peaceful protestors.

    For the countless men and women who went missing
    and then were found dead during those protests?
    Some found hanging from trees.
    There was no excuse.

    There is no excuse for murder.

    Correct. Why do so many U.S. citizens own firearms?

    Easy to get and make people feel sexy, empowered and cool?

  • edited January 7

    I am not American. I am fortunate to be in a country which is not prone to quite the levels of passionate expression that the people in the USA are historical good at. Passion can be a good thing. I cannot lay judgment on either side of the political spectrum because at the end of the day they are all being financed by people and corporations that have way more to throw behind them then the average person on the street. True, anyone can run for President, but it always comes down to a choice between two sides. Blue or Red...which pill do you choose? In 2000, the election was down to a state called Florida and 50,000 votes that managed to be left out of the vote. It was publicised and everyone knew what had happened. Nothing was done about it and you had 8 years of Bush and crew. Then Mr. Obama was voted in on the promise of great change and being the change you want to see. I saw the TV shot of him and the rest of his Whitehouse cronies sitting around a TV while they watched another human being being blown to bits by a missile that was guided in from afar. Humanitarianism? Then the choice that the country had was between a lady who has a dubious past and a TV show host....really? that were the only two people in the country who were good enough to do the job?...and now everyone thinks it's going to be different? ...with each changeover there is the hope that things will be fixed, that they will be better....yes, I believe in Democracy, but I have to say I haven't seen too many great examples recently...oh, by the way, the Chinese are about to put to death one of their own...for what exactly?...

    end of rant....thanks....I'll let myself out now.

  • edited January 7

    Please let’s not go down the “why do so many Americans own guns?” path, as that’s a whole new rabbit hole to go down. That won’t change as the right is enshrined in th Second Amendment, and...it’s complicated...

    Let’s focus on rational discussion of the events of yesterday rather than follow these tangents.

  • In it's purist ideal Democracy is a great rosy idea. Of course it is tarnished and flawed but at least a fevered ego can only be at the helm for a maximum of eight years. By Internet time that does seem so much longer now though. Term limits of four months anyone?

  • The user and all related content has been deleted.
  • @Max23 said:

    @AudioGus said:
    In it's purist ideal Democracy is a great rosy idea. Of course it is tarnished and flawed but at least a fevered ego can only be at the helm for a maximum of eight years. By Internet time that does seem so much longer now though. Term limits of four months anyone?

    whatever you want to do, it won't happen in 4 month ;)

    I never said I wanted to be in charge. ;)

  • @AudioGus said:
    In it's purist ideal Democracy is a great rosy idea. Of course it is tarnished and flawed but at least a fevered ego can only be at the helm for a maximum of eight years. By Internet time that does seem so much longer now though. Term limits of four months anyone?

    I am in favor of term limits in congress, even though it wouldn’t pass because those in congress would be voting to limit their own terms. There is no way some should be a senator for 30, 40, and more years. 2 terms is 12 years, I think even that is too long but at least it’s a limit.

    Yesterday was wrong. There are some deep problems, but I’m going to continue to have faith that decency will eventually prevail. I try to help others every day and put others’ needs before my own (and I fail constantly but keep trying). That’s the only thing in my power that I can do.

  • @Max23 said:
    trump invited these people. he tweeted before something like come to Washington on 6th, its gonna get wild ...
    trump wanted this to happen. he provoked it. this must have consequences.

    Exactly.

  • @mrufino1 said:

    @AudioGus said:
    In it's purist ideal Democracy is a great rosy idea. Of course it is tarnished and flawed but at least a fevered ego can only be at the helm for a maximum of eight years. By Internet time that does seem so much longer now though. Term limits of four months anyone?

    I am in favor of term limits in congress, even though it wouldn’t pass because those in congress would be voting to limit their own terms. There is no way some should be a senator for 30, 40, and more years. 2 terms is 12 years, I think even that is too long but at least it’s a limit.

    Yesterday was wrong. There are some deep problems, but I’m going to continue to have faith that decency will eventually prevail. I try to help others every day and put others’ needs before my own (and I fail constantly but keep trying). That’s the only thing in my power that I can do.

    2 terms for a Senator is 12 years, but it’s only 4 for the House. It should probably be total years in Congress rather than terms (or number of terms based on a maximum number of years).

  • this broke me into subatomic particles :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

    so #much #true

  • Can someone link the news story about the 16 yr old girl shot in the assault

    I’m not seeing this anywhere

    A grown woman was shot to death...

  • @Littlewoodg said:
    Can someone link the news story about the 16 yr old girl shot in the assault

    I’m not seeing this anywhere

    A grown woman was shot to death...

    Same. Today I see the news mentioning 4 deaths, but the other three were adults succumbing to "medical situations".

  • edited January 7
    The user and all related content has been deleted.
  • edited January 7

    @Liquidmantis said:

    @Littlewoodg said:
    Can someone link the news story about the 16 yr old girl shot in the assault

    I’m not seeing this anywhere

    A grown woman was shot to death...

    Same. Today I see the news mentioning 4 deaths, but the other three were adults succumbing to "medical situations".

    A lot of them did look a little on the unhealthy side.

  • edited January 7

    @Littlewoodg said:
    Can someone link the news story about the 16 yr old girl shot in the assault

    I’m not seeing this anywhere

    A grown woman was shot to death...

    35 years old they say. Air force vet.

    https://news.sky.com/story/ashli-babbitt-trump-supporter-shot-dead-in-capitol-was-air-force-veteran-12181190

  • @AudioGus said:

    @Liquidmantis said:

    @Littlewoodg said:
    Can someone link the news story about the 16 yr old girl shot in the assault

    I’m not seeing this anywhere

    A grown woman was shot to death...

    Same. Today I see the news mentioning 4 deaths, but the other three were adults succumbing to "medical situations".

    A lot of them did look a little on the unhealthy side.

    The true story is they heard Trump was providing congress with one of his McDonald's buffets.

  • @Liquidmantis said:

    @AudioGus said:

    @Liquidmantis said:

    @Littlewoodg said:
    Can someone link the news story about the 16 yr old girl shot in the assault

    I’m not seeing this anywhere

    A grown woman was shot to death...

    Same. Today I see the news mentioning 4 deaths, but the other three were adults succumbing to "medical situations".

    A lot of them did look a little on the unhealthy side.

    The true story is they heard Trump was providing congress with one of his McDonald's buffets.

    ...and there was no buffet? Sad.

  • edited January 7

    BTW, not for the faint of heart but this fellow claims to be the one who shot and posted the videos of the shooting here. The time of the post and number of views seemed to check out to me but not 100% sure he didnt just repost it.

    https://twitter.com/TaylerUSA

  • @Max23 said:

    @dendy said:
    this broke me into subatomic particles :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

    so #much #true

    What’s the building? Library of congress?
    I’m an Europlant.

    I'm too :-) it's the infamous FED

  • edited January 7
    The user and all related content has been deleted.
  • @rs2000 said:

    Correct. Why do so many U.S. citizens own firearms?

    Well it doesn't really matter why. The genie is already out of the lamp with hundreds of millions of firearms in private possession. The folks that you saw yesterday are the very type of folks that own multiple guns, have stocks of ammo and get regular training and practice on how to use them. And they are not inclined to listen to anyone from the government adding any more restrictions on them.

    And yet these terrorists don't represent all of the nation's gun owners by a long stretch. The politics of the gun owners range across the political spectrum. There are some that will gladly accept further restrictions on the ability to carry, purchase ammunition, the size of magazines or the storage of the guns. There are also a more vocal group that already think there are enough gun laws, that more gun laws will just enable the existing law breakers to break more laws in the process - and they want nothing to do with any more infringement on their supposed 2nd amendment rights.

    I do not know what the solution is. I do not forsee anything happening especially after the Sandy Hook tragedy that will convince Americans to voluntarily give up their guns. Posting statistics like you have is pointless. If you can't convince somebody that a deranged gunman with a .226 caliber rifle made for war killing kindergartners is a reason to prohibit gun ownership then you are never going to do it.

    Politically I'm independent. Neither Republican nor Democrat. I tend toward fiscal conservatism and social liberty. I own a handgun, several rifles and I have been well trained how to use them. I used to be a marksmanship instructor, training rifle owners how to hit human sized targets at over 500 meters. I left the hobby after realizing a) that so many gun owners are ignorant of how they work and b) the politics of many gun owners was unpalatable and I'd rather not be training them.

    p.s. I always laugh when there is a police raid of a house and the media tries to describe the person as having an arsenal of weapons. "we found 10,000 rounds of ammo in various calibers, and several rifles". Hah. Just about every law abiding gun owner I know has that and more. It is just what you do when you find ammunition on sale - you buy it because the stuff is expensive and doesn't go bad sitting in the box... well before you know it you have thousand of rounds just waiting to be shot at the range and several hundred in reserve in the "just in case" pile.

  • edited January 7

    Edit

  • It's a tragedy, no doubt. I personally wouldn't break into a federal building, especially the Capitol, because I'd expect to be shot. I'm only surprised there weren't more.

  • @michael_m said:
    Please let’s not go down the “why do so many Americans own guns?” path, as that’s a whole new rabbit hole to go down. That won’t change as the right is enshrined in th Second Amendment, and...it’s complicated...

    Let’s focus on rational discussion of the events of yesterday rather than follow these tangents.

    The second amendment does not enshrine a personal right to gun ownership. This is is a post-Civil War notion. The second amendment is about a state's right to have armed militias over which the Federal govt has no jurisdiction. The reason is not a noble one. States where enslaving people was legal had armed militias whose purpose was preventing rebellions by enslaved people. Those states wanted a guarantee that the Federal standing army established in the Constitution would not interfere with these militias .

    There are letters between the authors of the Constitution that make this explicit --primarily between James Madison, Patrick Henry and George Mason.

    The 2nd Amendment is not borne of a noble notion of a right to self-defense.

    Sadly, this relates to yesterday's right wing violence and the ongoing efforts of the American right to prevent people of African descent from having their full rights and voice in the polity. Even those in the GOP that opposed yesterday's rebellion overwhelmingly favor laws that essentially restrict the right of Black people to vote. They simply prefer not to use such overtly violent means to achieve their ends.The majority of Republicans in Congress yesterday voted to overturn a free and fair election. Those people and their supporters will continue to pursue laws that make it harder for African Americans to vote and achieve representation. This is not a secret. They say it out loud.

This discussion has been closed.