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Comments
If Behringer did indeed license this rather than clone it, then that changes by opinion of this incident, but saying you can't call out shitty behavior because of "logical consistency" is utter bullshit, IMO.
walkie, I didn't say you can't. I'm pointing out that some people are very selective with what they call out.
My point is entirely in the context of IPAD musicians slating Behringer, rather than "you can't call out shitty behavior because of "logical consistency"". You're doing an abstraction, removing my point from its context.
When some small boutique synth manufacturers rant about Behringer.. they may have a point.
When Ipad musicians parrot them, theres some incredible double standards occuring.
Here's the full story:
https://www.synthtopia.com/content/2020/11/23/arturia-responds-to-behringers-keystep-knockoff-seriously/
How long until behr makes knockoff sites that say the opposite?
Wow. One shady firm gets ripped off by an even shadier firm. Who do I root for here?
That clears things up pretty much.
Dunno, imma gonna go play with my apps that are clones of popular hardware. 😉
on my ipad.. which was made by Satan himself, with a bit of assistance from some sweatshop labour.
Team Ulli till you die!
Well. So it is a rip off by Behringer.
I can understand them wanting to recreate old vintage synths but I can't understand why they would rip off modern gear. Who is going to buy it?
Thanks for relaying those, @Clam and @d4d0ug. Gotta be so frustrating as a freelance designer to have your work ripped off. What I keep coming back to is that getting a new product into production is a lot of work. Since Behringer is doing that work anyway, it would've been so easy to just not create a shameless clone, so why did they do it?
Wow. Just wow.
walkie theres lots of reasons..
I think/hope i've demonstrated that people pick and choose their ethics & what they empathise with as it suits them, Companies know that behaviour (such as Apple, Behringer and Arturia). Or they wouldnt use cheap labour in China, none of us would buy their stuff either.
Behringer plays social media like a fiddle, they know they arent gonna win over their moralistic detractors and don't care. So they do a blatent copy for free viral coverage. Its very efficient from a production perspective - they know it can be manufactured without wasteful issues.
Theyve gotten loads of free publicity for copying, made lots of money - its almost like their detractors are part of a self fulfilling prophecy.
Apple doesnt care about the low pay and conditions of its workforce, beyond fitting suicide nets? (in China.. a bit of racist white supremacy really) and Behringer doesnt care about not paying the freelance designer who has already been paid well? (probably) by Arturia. I dont see how hes a victim here financially, he's sold the design as far as i know. Hes also gotten free publicity.
Id never heard of him before, hes a talented chap, i owned a Blofeld and thought it was a great design.
I'm not sure we should be empathising with him though, aside him having to clear up some facts, this has raised his profile. (kerchiing!).
troll
Nope, i strongly disagree with people on this matter.
People are unwilling to look at their flaws that are pointed out whilst theyve virue signalled about ethics.
You yourself suggested im "Team Behringer till i die". Its a polarising view.
We are also seeing a phenomena known as "collective narcissism".
A bunch of Ipad users bashing Behringer, whilst ignoring the negative aspects of Apple. Theyre Projecting nasty characteristics they support and ignore, upon Behringer.
I definitely did not need you to demonstrate this for me, thanks.
https://thenib.com/mister-gotcha/
Wishing you a speedy recovery from adolescence.
Indeed. Though, I don't think most of the jumped-to conclusions were based entirely on this device. They've earned a certain pedigree.
ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
Same to you.
Also - im not a troll, im Andrew Fox. Ive spoke on this matter elsewhere. Ipad musician on facebook.
Just because someone doesnt agree with you, it doesnt make them a troll.
Behringers detractors think theyre calling out bad behaviour - in some instances thats true, in some instances people are doing very bad behaviour, literally trolling.
look at the claims Uli is a racist antisemite - its not true. Yeah he was an offensive dick.. but that doesnt warrant being called an antisemite - i dont think the people shouting their mouths of about it had jewish peoples interests at heart.
People milked peoples genuine concerns over racism and antisemitism.
I reckon "Team Anti Behringer" are the trolls.
I'm calling out shitty behaviour here, pointing out collective bullying. People are picking and choosing a bogeyman really. Its immature.
Its important not to interpret what im saying wrongly - i am not bashing people for buying an ipad, i have one myself. I am pointing out the collective bullying of Uli Behringer, when he is no worse than Apple - its bollocks really. Obviously.
Your logic is very peculiar to me. If this forum were to collectively criticise Apple for bad practice, would you then respond that it wasn't fair to do so because Behringer and other companies were also bad? I haven't seen any personal attacks here, just exasperation that one manufacturer should so shamelessly copy the product of another.
I don't know about you guys but I'm really looking forward to my £50 Volcas.
I think you have the right to purchase Behringer products if you like.
I think you have the right to boycott Behringer if you like.
Unless you live in a log cabin with no running water or electricity, eating only what you can catch and grow then you are using and purchasing goods from companies worse than Behringer just to survive and feed your family.
That doesn’t mean you can’t despise Behringer as a company though.
All opinions on Behringer are valid.
They’ve done some shitty things and have acted in a very non-professional manner on occasions. They also make a lot of products that many musicians love and can actually afford.
But if you boycott Behringer, don’t think that makes you better than some one who doesn’t. And vice versa. Just do what you feel is right. If you make your views known with intelligence and grace, you might even change some minds. It would be nice if you don’t expect that change though, or judge those that hold the opposing view.
A bit like football. You don’t have to hit people wearing blue scarves with sticks. you’re never, ever going to convince them to wear red so you may as well just go down the pub and have a drink with them and find a common ground in hating people wearing white scarves instead.
(We all have far more in common here than that which divides us).
It would be nice if we could all live and let live.
Behringer suck. I love my Pro-1. But they suck. And I want more Behringer synths.
I don’t think such business practices should be condoned or supported, but I also don’t think that Behringer products should be entirely boycotted. When training a dog, or teaching a child the difference between right and wrong, one discourages bad behaviour, but one also encourages good behaviour. In this case, and I’m sure there are others, Behringer should be strongly discouraged. I would not buy a Swing for that reason. However, Behringer has also done some good things. They have occasionally made affordable equipment that isn’t straight rip-offs of other gear still in production and I don’t think those products should be shunned. I’m sure all of us would like to see Behringer give up making blatant copies of current gear and concentrate on producing original designs or improved modern versions of vintage equipment that is no longer made, but they obviously need an incentive. The way to encourage that is to buy only those products and avoid the rip-offs. Sales figures ought to do the rest...
It's not really peculiar - what i have said is in a context.
I made a point agreeing with IPAD musicians who think we can't take much of a moral stance on many of the issues people point out about Behringer.
There is a bigger picture to the Behringer bashing - which people here have referred to other instances.
Would i apply the same logic in another context ? Perhaps, but maybe my conclusion would not be the same.
My opinion on the copying of a product - there are laws protecting IP for periods of time - the Keystep doesn't really have any protectable tech aside from its Firmware Code is copyright, but Behringer will have coded its own.
All of the keysteps technical features are "old hat".
The Keystep wasn't innovative - but it did fill a gap in the market at the time particularly due to its connectivity. Without the CV and Gate it was nothing new.
I think there are earlier existing keyboard products that the Keystep "borrowed from" such as the Samson Graphite M32.
I don't believe the layout of the user interface (the positions of its knobs and buttons etc) would be enough to warrant a design copyright. Behringer has changed the styling of these anyhow, its added a different "Bevel" too. It's not a facsimile - people are claiming it is, that's a lie or at best missinforming.
Yes, Behringer copied the Keystep but i believe they can, this is not akin to copying Moogs Ladder filter whilst its still in patent.
It's akin to copying a toaster or a pocket multitool.. well, it is what it is - copying a controller keyboard with sequencer.
I think the Keystep has become a defacto thing for many people - much like a TV remote, a hand drill, etc.
It was built using combinations of prior tech that everyone is free to use - and its "form factor" (dimensions, touch strip mod and pitch) was not original.
That's how i see it.
If Swing means that keys send MPE pitch bend when the keys are moved sideways then I'm in. We want more than yet another basic keyboard controller, don't we?
Heh. You wish. It doesn’t, sadly.
Behringer responds
https://community.musictribe.com/discussions/156693/308940/competition-the-facts?fbclid=IwAR14cW3S5JOdNxJNle87yxcYV_dDLS1JlSmvweWCJ-5aj1pVsJxlA2RBhyI
“ How many Fender Stratocaster or Gibson Les Paul clones are out there in the guitar world and how many SM58 clones are available? How many cars or mobile phones look alike? It is not surprising that Gibson recently lost a substantial legal case trying to prevent others from making V-shape guitars or Fender, who lost all trademark cases related to their Stratocaster design.
The reason is simple: the law encourages competition and provides maximum freedom for companies to engage head-on, all for the benefit of the Customer.”
They are not wrong. Competition is good for the consumer.
What case did Gibson lose ‘recently’? Other than their fight against going into receivership...
I like how he felt it necessary to have fake 'user comments' saying how true this must be, on a page that doesn't actually seem to allow comments from the public.
To me does betray an asshole attitude - this is not someone with some kind of altruistic desire to bring competition to the market, this is someone trying to cover their ass after getting backlash for announcing a blatant ripoff of an existing product and pretending that it's all ok because other people make shitty ripoffs too.