Audiobus: Use your music apps together.

What is Audiobus?Audiobus is an award-winning music app for iPhone and iPad which lets you use your other music apps together. Chain effects on your favourite synth, run the output of apps or Audio Units into an app like GarageBand or Loopy, or select a different audio interface output for each app. Route MIDI between apps — drive a synth from a MIDI sequencer, or add an arpeggiator to your MIDI keyboard — or sync with your external MIDI gear. And control your entire setup from a MIDI controller.

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Audiobus is the app that makes the rest of your setup better.

OT : “Files” vs “iCloud” storage on iOS : a bit lost here

Hi audiobusies

I am a bit lost wrt storage on iOS

Am trying to tidy things up to gain back some precious space

Then I see that both “iCloud” and “Files” fill a lot of space on the iPad

But isn’t Files part of iCloud, and why is it bigger than iCloud? could I delete one safely without jeopardising data?

Using AudioShare & AUM and using its Files integration I certainly don’t want to lose the data (iPad already backed up but still)

Any ideas?

Thanks

Nico

Comments

  • @saxophonick said:
    Hi audiobusies

    I am a bit lost wrt storage on iOS

    Am trying to tidy things up to gain back some precious space

    Then I see that both “iCloud” and “Files” fill a lot of space on the iPad

    But isn’t Files part of iCloud, and why is it bigger than iCloud? could I delete one safely without jeopardising data?

    Using AudioShare & AUM and using its Files integration I certainly don’t want to lose the data (iPad already backed up but still)

    Any ideas?

    Thanks

    Nico

    iCloud is cloud storage -- (i.e. on a server). When you access files they are downloaded to your device but might be offloaded back to the cloud servers at some point.

    "On my iPad" is physically on your iPad at all time. Files is simply an app that gives you access to files -- but they can be local ("On my iPad", on iCloud, on Dropbox or any number of places). Files is just an app to access those files.

  • @espiegel123 said:

    @saxophonick said:
    Hi audiobusies

    I am a bit lost wrt storage on iOS

    Am trying to tidy things up to gain back some precious space

    Then I see that both “iCloud” and “Files” fill a lot of space on the iPad

    But isn’t Files part of iCloud, and why is it bigger than iCloud? could I delete one safely without jeopardising data?

    Using AudioShare & AUM and using its Files integration I certainly don’t want to lose the data (iPad already backed up but still)

    Any ideas?

    Thanks

    Nico

    iCloud is cloud storage -- (i.e. on a server). When you access files they are downloaded to your device but might be offloaded back to the cloud servers at some point.

    "On my iPad" is physically on your iPad at all time. Files is simply an app that gives you access to files -- but they can be local ("On my iPad", on iCloud, on Dropbox or any number of places). Files is just an app to access those files.

    Thank you Espiegel123

    Yes, that difference is understood, but they are entwined in a way that is unclear, I’ll have to check deeper, because although most of my larger iCloud folders or files are not on this iPad, 5GB is still a lot for notes,reminders,contacts. For Files, I already removed folder from “on this iPad” but the size does not change..... scratching my head still ;)

  • edited October 2020

    Files in iCloud Drive can be on your iPad as well as in the cloud or just in the cloud. Just because you put in in the cloud doesn’t mean they’re not also using your iPad storage. The internal file isn’t immediately deleted. When it’s offline you get the download symbol. I don’t think there’s a way in the files app to make a file offline only.

    The iPad OS will offload files from the internal storage for iCloud files automatically when it needs space.

    So think of your iCloud Drive folder as an internal folder that also syncs to the cloud and only offloads files when the OS feels like it.

    So where it says iCloud Drive is taking up 5.09 GB that’s the amount of storage your iCloud Drive files are taking up locally and haven’t been offloaded yet. It’s totally separate to the “on my iPad” files you’ve stored only on the device.

    Don’t worry about that storage amount, the OS will fairly aggressively offload those when space is running low or files haven’t been used for a while.

  • @saxophonick said:

    @espiegel123 said:

    @saxophonick said:
    Hi audiobusies

    I am a bit lost wrt storage on iOS

    Am trying to tidy things up to gain back some precious space

    Then I see that both “iCloud” and “Files” fill a lot of space on the iPad

    But isn’t Files part of iCloud, and why is it bigger than iCloud? could I delete one safely without jeopardising data?

    Using AudioShare & AUM and using its Files integration I certainly don’t want to lose the data (iPad already backed up but still)

    Any ideas?

    Thanks

    Nico

    iCloud is cloud storage -- (i.e. on a server). When you access files they are downloaded to your device but might be offloaded back to the cloud servers at some point.

    "On my iPad" is physically on your iPad at all time. Files is simply an app that gives you access to files -- but they can be local ("On my iPad", on iCloud, on Dropbox or any number of places). Files is just an app to access those files.

    Thank you Espiegel123

    Yes, that difference is understood, but they are entwined in a way that is unclear, I’ll have to check deeper, because although most of my larger iCloud folders or files are not on this iPad, 5GB is still a lot for notes,reminders,contacts. For Files, I already removed folder from “on this iPad” but the size does not change..... scratching my head still ;)

    What do you mean by "I already removed folder from on This iPad but the size does not change"?

    What folder? If you moved it to your iCloud drive that won't free up space until the OS decides to offload from local storage.

    Also, the OS takes its time in reclaiming space after deleting files (since you can recover recently deleted files).

    If you backup data to iCloud, that 5 Gig doesn't necessarily go very far.

  • @saxophonick Also check Recently Deleted in the Files app. When you delete files from On My iPad, they aren't deleted, just moved to Recently Deleted. This tripped me up a while ago.

  • Keep in mind too that if files are used by more than one app, they show as being stored in both, but physically they don't take up twice the space. For instance, if you import 2GB of files to an app, then import those same files to another app, the storage taken up on our device is 2GB, not 4GB. But if you list the storage individually for each app, they'll each show 2GB.

    Confused yet? The key to understanding is that the Apple File System doesn't physically copy files in most cases. It just places a pointer to the original. You can have 20 app all using a file, and it's only stored once. Conversely, you can try to recover space by deleting 19 of those copies and not gain back any space at all. It's only after you delete the very last one that any storage is recovered ... and then, only if you remove it from "recently deleted".

    As for iCloud Drive storage, that number may be including your device backups. But as others have explained, iCloud Drive is storage in the cloud, but "cached" on your device so you don't have to download files every time. You don't have any control over which files are cached locally. Yes, if you delete the files from iCloud Drive, they will also be deleted from your device if they have been cached locally ... provided there aren't any other copies laying around as mentioned above ... and provided they're removed from your recently deleted folder.

  • Suggestion for potentially lots of space recovery: individually offload apps that you don't use. Each app in the list of storage usage in your device has a detail page that says how much space the app takes up, and how much "document" space is in use. When you "offload" an app, the app storage is recovered, while the document storage remains. The app will still appear as though it's installed, but with a little cloud next to the name. Opening the app will cause it to be re-downloaded. All of your data will still be there.

    Just be sure not to enable the global "Offload Unused Apps". You don't want Apple deciding this for you.

  • @klownshed said:
    Files in iCloud Drive can be on your iPad as well as in the cloud or just in the cloud. Just because you put in in the cloud doesn’t mean they’re not also using your iPad storage. The internal file isn’t immediately deleted. When it’s offline you get the download symbol. I don’t think there’s a way in the files app to make a file offline only.

    The iPad OS will offload files from the internal storage for iCloud files automatically when it needs space.

    So think of your iCloud Drive folder as an internal folder that also syncs to the cloud and only offloads files when the OS feels like it.

    So where it says iCloud Drive is taking up 5.09 GB that’s the amount of storage your iCloud Drive files are taking up locally and haven’t been offloaded yet. It’s totally separate to the “on my iPad” files you’ve stored only on the device.

    Don’t worry about that storage amount, the OS will fairly aggressively offload those when space is running low or files haven’t been used for a while.

    Thank you Klownshed, I’m starting to get it, less head scratching :)

  • @espiegel123 said:

    What do you mean by "I already removed folder from on This iPad but the size does not change"?

    What folder? If you moved it to your iCloud drive that won't free up space until the OS decides to offload from local storage.

    Also, the OS takes its time in reclaiming space after deleting files (since you can recover recently deleted files).

    If you backup data to iCloud, that 5 Gig doesn't necessarily go very far.

    Thank you Espiegel123,

    What I mean is that I deleted files in « Files » app, in the « on this iPad » folder, which I assume to be local storage. After deleting it, waiting a bit, reopening settings and checking the Files app size it is still the same size.

  • @uncledave said:
    @saxophonick Also check Recently Deleted in the Files app. When you delete files from On My iPad, they aren't deleted, just moved to Recently Deleted. This tripped me up a while ago.

    Thank you uncledave : yes just checked and it was full of not deleted files, in the deleted folder :# one more step towards the light

  • @wim said:
    Keep in mind too that if files are used by more than one app, they show as being stored in both, but physically they don't take up twice the space. For instance, if you import 2GB of files to an app, then import those same files to another app, the storage taken up on our device is 2GB, not 4GB. But if you list the storage individually for each app, they'll each show 2GB.

    Confused yet? The key to understanding is that the Apple File System doesn't physically copy files in most cases. It just places a pointer to the original. You can have 20 app all using a file, and it's only stored once. Conversely, you can try to recover space by deleting 19 of those copies and not gain back any space at all. It's only after you delete the very last one that any storage is recovered ... and then, only if you remove it from "recently deleted".

    As for iCloud Drive storage, that number may be including your device backups. But as others have explained, iCloud Drive is storage in the cloud, but "cached" on your device so you don't have to download files every time. You don't have any control over which files are cached locally. Yes, if you delete the files from iCloud Drive, they will also be deleted from your device if they have been cached locally ... provided there aren't any other copies laying around as mentioned above ... and provided they're removed from your recently deleted folder.

    Thank you Wim : ok getting there :) I am starting to see the light B)

  • @wim said:
    Suggestion for potentially lots of space recovery: individually offload apps that you don't use. Each app in the list of storage usage in your device has a detail page that says how much space the app takes up, and how much "document" space is in use. When you "offload" an app, the app storage is recovered, while the document storage remains. The app will still appear as though it's installed, but with a little cloud next to the name. Opening the app will cause it to be re-downloaded. All of your data will still be there.

    Just be sure not to enable the global "Offload Unused Apps". You don't want Apple deciding this for you.

    And thanks again Wim :) - yes I already did that for quite a few apps, and indeed I don’t let the OS decide as it might offload apps you need but don’t use regularly

    This forum is so helpful, thanks all for your replies :)

  • @saxophonick said:

    @uncledave said:
    @saxophonick Also check Recently Deleted in the Files app. When you delete files from On My iPad, they aren't deleted, just moved to Recently Deleted. This tripped me up a while ago.

    Thank you uncledave : yes just checked and it was full of not deleted files, in the deleted folder :# one more step towards the light

    My advice, unless lack of storage is causing an issue, is not to try and micro-manage the files. Don't worry about the stuff that iOS takes care of, like the recently deleted folder. Due to the complexity of the APFS file system it's not like the old HFS+. The amount of storage space reported is not an exact figure as there are some very clever things that APFS does that make a single value redundant.

    For example, APFS can have mutliple volumes, that if you add them together totals way more than the physical limits. You don't have to partition a drive in exact chunks. It can mess with your head to try and understand how it all works. again, it's not like HFS+ where a file just existed as 1s and 0s and 1+1 = 2.

    The fact Apple changed over millions of iOS devices from HFS+ to APFS without anybody really noticing is frankly mind boggling.

    The downside to all this is that when you're used to having to micro manage every byte, APFS just doesn't make sense.

    APFS is science fiction. Just don't worry about how it does its voodoo. :-D

  • edited October 2020

    @klownshed said:

    @saxophonick said:

    @uncledave said:
    @saxophonick Also check Recently Deleted in the Files app. When you delete files from On My iPad, they aren't deleted, just moved to Recently Deleted. This tripped me up a while ago.

    Thank you uncledave : yes just checked and it was full of not deleted files, in the deleted folder :# one more step towards the light

    My advice, unless lack of storage is causing an issue, is not to try and micro-manage the files. Don't worry about the stuff that iOS takes care of, like the recently deleted folder. Due to the complexity of the APFS file system it's not like the old HFS+. The amount of storage space reported is not an exact figure as there are some very clever things that APFS does that make a single value redundant.

    For example, APFS can have mutliple volumes, that if you add them together totals way more than the physical limits. You don't have to partition a drive in exact chunks. It can mess with your head to try and understand how it all works. again, it's not like HFS+ where a file just existed as 1s and 0s and 1+1 = 2.

    The fact Apple changed over millions of iOS devices from HFS+ to APFS without anybody really noticing is frankly mind boggling.

    The downside to all this is that when you're used to having to micro manage every byte, APFS just doesn't make sense.

    APFS is science fiction. Just don't worry about how it does its voodoo. :-D

    Haha thank you uncledave that is exactly how it feels : science fiction :D

    Now I understand better, it is the same thing with my secondary Mac rig, MacBook Pro with Mojave and « purgeable space » mysteries

    And yes space is a concern on the ´Pad, have an Air 2 since it was released 64GB, full of apps and files that I use, and with optimising space it still hovers around 56GB of used data

    It’s getting long in the tooth, next one will be at least 128 or 256

  • A follow on question regarding iCloud backup, how do you verify that files from multiple devices are backup? Since I have two ipads containing different apps as well as some apps that overlap, how do I know that both ipads are backup properly?

  • @cozido said:
    A follow on question regarding iCloud backup, how do you verify that files from multiple devices are backup? Since I have two ipads containing different apps as well as some apps that overlap, how do I know that both ipads are backup properly?

    Devices get their own backup. Be aware that some apps do not backup their data in iCloud backups. I recommend also backing up to desktop.

  • @espiegel123 said:

    @cozido said:
    A follow on question regarding iCloud backup, how do you verify that files from multiple devices are backup? Since I have two ipads containing different apps as well as some apps that overlap, how do I know that both ipads are backup properly?

    Devices get their own backup. Be aware that some apps do not backup their data in iCloud backups. I recommend also backing up to desktop.

    And remember, a device backup is a full backup. When you reset a device, one of the options is to "Restore from iCloud Backup", which will restore your device to the exact state of the last backup. You cannot use it piecemeal to retrieve a lost file, or the settings for a deleted app. So, these backups are a nice security blanket, but they really are a last-ditch recovery plan.

  • edited October 2020

    @espiegel123 said:
    I recommend also backing up to desktop.

    How do you do that?

  • @uncledave said:

    @espiegel123 said:

    @cozido said:
    A follow on question regarding iCloud backup, how do you verify that files from multiple devices are backup? Since I have two ipads containing different apps as well as some apps that overlap, how do I know that both ipads are backup properly?

    Devices get their own backup. Be aware that some apps do not backup their data in iCloud backups. I recommend also backing up to desktop.

    And remember, a device backup is a full backup. When you reset a device, one of the options is to "Restore from iCloud Backup", which will restore your device to the exact state of the last backup. You cannot use it piecemeal to retrieve a lost file, or the settings for a deleted app. So, these backups are a nice security blanket, but they really are a last-ditch recovery plan.

    Important to know that iCloud backups are not necessarily complete state backups as some apps’ data is not (sadly) included. Some apps let you turn this on and off but some simply don’t get backed up to the cloud. (Auria Pro is an example according to some people). That is why a desktop backup is useful to have.

  • @cozido said:

    @espiegel123 said:
    I recommend also backing up to desktop.

    How do you do that?

    If using an OS version that backs up/syncs via iTunes, you can use iTunes. I use iMazing as it also allows retrieval of of individual items from backups (useful if you accidentally changed or deleted a file).

  • I see, I haven’t used iTunes for years, will have to download a new copy.

    Thanks!

  • @wim said:
    Suggestion for potentially lots of space recovery: individually offload apps that you don't use. Each app in the list of storage usage in your device has a detail page that says how much space the app takes up, and how much "document" space is in use. When you "offload" an app, the app storage is recovered, while the document storage remains. The app will still appear as though it's installed, but with a little cloud next to the name. Opening the app will cause it to be re-downloaded. All of your data will still be there.

    Just be sure not to enable the global "Offload Unused Apps". You don't want Apple deciding this for you.

    @wim are samples offloaded too?. I just purchased 50gb iCloud since my iPad died and I lost everything. iCloud Drive seems like a nice spot for samples. I could add samples from my Mac and keep it organized, it’s easier to rename and organize directories from a desktop... and they’d magically sync to the iPad right?. I certainly don’t want samples offloading or bything like that...

  • wimwim
    edited November 2020

    @tahiche said:

    @wim said:
    Suggestion for potentially lots of space recovery: individually offload apps that you don't use. Each app in the list of storage usage in your device has a detail page that says how much space the app takes up, and how much "document" space is in use. When you "offload" an app, the app storage is recovered, while the document storage remains. The app will still appear as though it's installed, but with a little cloud next to the name. Opening the app will cause it to be re-downloaded. All of your data will still be there.

    Just be sure not to enable the global "Offload Unused Apps". You don't want Apple deciding this for you.

    @wim are samples offloaded too?. I just purchased 50gb iCloud since my iPad died and I lost everything. iCloud Drive seems like a nice spot for samples. I could add samples from my Mac and keep it organized, it’s easier to rename and organize directories from a desktop... and they’d magically sync to the iPad right?. I certainly don’t want samples offloading or bything like that...

    It's important to understand what "offloading" an app is and does. It's like uninstalling a program, except that it doesn't delete your data that was in use by that program. It just "deletes" the program itself. Later, when you try to run the offloaded program again, it re-downloads the program and you're back to where you were before you offloaded it.

    So, I don't think that relates to what you're trying to do. If I understand correctly, you're wanting to store your sample library on iCloud so that it's accessible from all your devices. Yes, that can work, but you have to keep in mind that you may not have access to those samples if you don't have an internet connection. iOS decides which files are cached locally, and that can change at any time. You don't have any control over that.

    Also, keep in mind that iCloud backups take up space in your iCloud in addition to any files you decide to store there. So, if your iOS device backups are 50gb then ...

  • @wim said:
    Suggestion for potentially lots of space recovery: individually offload apps that you don't use. Each app in the list of storage usage in your device has a detail page that says how much space the app takes up, and how much "document" space is in use. When you "offload" an app, the app storage is recovered, while the document storage remains. The app will still appear as though it's installed, but with a little cloud next to the name. Opening the app will cause it to be re-downloaded. All of your data will still be there.

    Just be sure not to enable the global "Offload Unused Apps". You don't want Apple deciding this for you.

    Thanks for this, it was new to me.
    I only knew the global option and now searched and found the setting for each App.
    This is neat!

  • @tja said:

    @wim said:
    Suggestion for potentially lots of space recovery: individually offload apps that you don't use. Each app in the list of storage usage in your device has a detail page that says how much space the app takes up, and how much "document" space is in use. When you "offload" an app, the app storage is recovered, while the document storage remains. The app will still appear as though it's installed, but with a little cloud next to the name. Opening the app will cause it to be re-downloaded. All of your data will still be there.

    Just be sure not to enable the global "Offload Unused Apps". You don't want Apple deciding this for you.

    Thanks for this, it was new to me.
    I only knew the global option and now searched and found the setting for each App.
    This is neat!

    Just be aware that, at least last time I tried it, AUv3 and IAA apps that have been offloaded still show up in hosts like AUM. But ... they don't automatically download when you try to load them from the host. So, if you forget you offloaded an app, it's possible to think it's simply broken.

  • Thanks @wim !

    Yes, that can work, but you have to keep in mind that you may not have access to those samples if you don't have an internet connection. iOS decides which files are cached locally, and that can change at any time. You don't have any control over that.

    I understand “offloading apps”, and what you point above I call “offloading samples or files”. This is precisely what I want to avoid. More so because you can’t “download” a whole folder so if, say, a drum kit sample folder was “cache cleared” (offloaded) I’d have to click on 30 stupid little clouds to use it.

    Plus...

    Also, keep in mind that iCloud backups take up space in your iCloud in addition to any files you decide to store there. So, if your iOS device backups are 50gb then ...

    I guess If the samples ARE available (cached) in the iCloud Drive, they’d probably take twice the space in iCloud. That’s what you’re saying, right?. One time for the iCloud Drive and another for the iCloud backup of the whole iPad content.

    I’m glad I asked. In a way I sort of knew there might be some drawbacks. Here’s a post of a guy who explains the hell he went through... it’s called “ iCloud Drive: Don’t do what I did!”

    https://blog.room34.com/archives/6245/icloud-drive-dont-do-what-i-did/

    Again, thank u.

    Here’s what I’m gonna do. I’m gonna take the opportunity to try and do it right.
    I’m going to organize the sample and loops folders in my desktop, rename, etc, save them to an external drive and copy them to the on My IPad space. In a previous post we talked about files not taking up more space if copied, say to the Zenbeats folder, as they are really pointers to a file. So I’ll copy the folders to those app spaces too.
    One important aspect for Zenbeats... keep nested folders to a minimum, since Zenbeats doesn’t have a “directory browser” you end up with literally hundreds of folders in the sample selector. It’s unmanageable. Will try to get around this by a naming strategy vs nesting directories. Will look for a nice file renamer and batch things out, see how it goes.
    Cheeeers!

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