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Zenbeats: Can you use MIDI AU or native step sequencer on synth instruments yet? (partial rant)

I really like Zenbeats, both the aesthetics and everything you can do with it, but am disappointed in 2 main things:

1) the tiny faders (and strip) and
2) the lack of a native step sequencer for synth instruments

The tiny faders is just odd to me, especially since when using the main mixer window not only is there empty black space along the top but there is also space for maybe 8(?) plugins per channel, yet the fader and strip remain tiny. How come the empty black space can’t be used and/or the plugin strip become scrollable or slightly reduced to allow for a bigger fader? I’m using a 2nd generation iPad Pro so maybe there could be a Pro setting that specifically takes advantage of the additional space like Auria Pro does.

The lack of the step sequencer for use with the instruments REALLY boggles my mind. I know that I can create a drum track and route it to an instrument, but how come Roland, who is globally known for having a step sequencer on nearly all of its hardware synths which has contributed to the creation/popularity of house, techno, trance, among other genres, decided NOT to include it for use on its iPad DAW synth instruments? 🤷🏼‍♂️🤷🏼‍♂️🤷🏼‍♂️🤷🏼‍♂️😕😕

Anyways, does Zenbeats allow for MIDI AU yet such as Rozeta Bassline? I love the software and plan on making a few tracks once I’m done with my NS2 adventure.

Comments

  • wimwim
    edited September 2020

    @trancespotter said:
    The lack of the step sequencer for use with the instruments REALLY boggles my mind. I know that I can create a drum track and route it to an instrument, but how come Roland, who is globally known for having a step sequencer on nearly all of its hardware synths which has contributed to the creation/popularity of house, techno, trance, among other genres, decided NOT to include it for use on its iPad DAW synth instruments? 🤷🏼‍♂️🤷🏼‍♂️🤷🏼‍♂️🤷🏼‍♂️😕😕

    Zenbeats wasn't originally designed by Roland. They bought the Stagelight app and inherited its design. Step sequencers in DAWs, for other than drums, aren't really common, so it doesn't surprise me Stagelight thought of it only for drums as well. Maybe that'll change at some point.

    Personally, I don't really get the difference. A piano roll is just a grid of notes the same as a step sequencer is to me. It just looks different. But you're not the first to want it, that's for sure.

    Anyways, does Zenbeats allow for MIDI AU yet such as Rozeta Bassline? I love the software and plan on making a few tracks once I’m done with my NS2 adventure.

    Yes. And you can record the MIDI AU output as well, unlike NS2 and BM3.

  • @wim said:

    @trancespotter said:
    The lack of the step sequencer for use with the instruments REALLY boggles my mind. I know that I can create a drum track and route it to an instrument, but how come Roland, who is globally known for having a step sequencer on nearly all of its hardware synths which has contributed to the creation/popularity of house, techno, trance, among other genres, decided NOT to include it for use on its iPad DAW synth instruments? 🤷🏼‍♂️🤷🏼‍♂️🤷🏼‍♂️🤷🏼‍♂️😕😕

    Zenbeats wasn't originally designed by Roland. They bought the Stagelight app and inherited its design. Step sequencers in DAWs, for other than drums, aren't really common, so it doesn't surprise me Stagelight thought of it only for drums as well. Maybe that'll change at some point.

    Personally, I don't really get the difference. A piano roll is just a grid of notes the same as a step sequencer is to me. It just looks different. But you're not the first to want it, that's for sure.

    Anyways, does Zenbeats allow for MIDI AU yet such as Rozeta Bassline? I love the software and plan on making a few tracks once I’m done with my NS2 adventure.

    Yes. And you can record the MIDI AU output as well, unlike NS2 and BM3.

    With a piano roll you have to worry about hitting the correct note as well as the length. A step sequencer hides both those items so you can just focus on the rhythm. Side note, I’m currently making goa/psytrance (90s style mind you) and making a foray into dark techno due to Zenbeats’ colors so a step sequencer is extremely helpful for this style.

    And coincidently, right after I read your post, I tried a long-press on a Zenbeats instrument and voila! I could select Rozeta Bassline 😁 Thanks for the telepathic instructions 🤣 I prefer the Zenbeats sequencer and colors but Rozeta will do fine for now until it hopefully gets implemented.

  • @trancespotter said:

    @wim said:

    @trancespotter said:
    The lack of the step sequencer for use with the instruments REALLY boggles my mind. I know that I can create a drum track and route it to an instrument, but how come Roland, who is globally known for having a step sequencer on nearly all of its hardware synths which has contributed to the creation/popularity of house, techno, trance, among other genres, decided NOT to include it for use on its iPad DAW synth instruments? 🤷🏼‍♂️🤷🏼‍♂️🤷🏼‍♂️🤷🏼‍♂️😕😕

    Zenbeats wasn't originally designed by Roland. They bought the Stagelight app and inherited its design. Step sequencers in DAWs, for other than drums, aren't really common, so it doesn't surprise me Stagelight thought of it only for drums as well. Maybe that'll change at some point.

    Personally, I don't really get the difference. A piano roll is just a grid of notes the same as a step sequencer is to me. It just looks different. But you're not the first to want it, that's for sure.

    Anyways, does Zenbeats allow for MIDI AU yet such as Rozeta Bassline? I love the software and plan on making a few tracks once I’m done with my NS2 adventure.

    Yes. And you can record the MIDI AU output as well, unlike NS2 and BM3.

    With a piano roll you have to worry about hitting the correct note as well as the length. A step sequencer hides both those items so you can just focus on the rhythm. Side note, I’m currently making goa/psytrance (90s style mind you) and making a foray into dark techno due to Zenbeats’ colors so a step sequencer is extremely helpful for this style.

    And coincidently, right after I read your post, I tried a long-press on a Zenbeats instrument and voila! I could select Rozeta Bassline 😁 Thanks for the telepathic instructions 🤣 I prefer the Zenbeats sequencer and colors but Rozeta will do fine for now until it hopefully gets implemented.

    On a side note, the Zenbeats Goa packs are pretty useful IMO.

  • @wim said:

    @trancespotter said:
    The lack of the step sequencer for use with the instruments REALLY boggles my mind. I know that I can create a drum track and route it to an instrument, but how come Roland, who is globally known for having a step sequencer on nearly all of its hardware synths which has contributed to the creation/popularity of house, techno, trance, among other genres, decided NOT to include it for use on its iPad DAW synth instruments? 🤷🏼‍♂️🤷🏼‍♂️🤷🏼‍♂️🤷🏼‍♂️😕😕

    Zenbeats wasn't originally designed by Roland. They bought the Stagelight app and inherited its design. Step sequencers in DAWs, for other than drums, aren't really common, so it doesn't surprise me Stagelight thought of it only for drums as well. Maybe that'll change at some point.

    Personally, I don't really get the difference. A piano roll is just a grid of notes the same as a step sequencer is to me. It just looks different. But you're not the first to want it, that's for sure.

    Anyways, does Zenbeats allow for MIDI AU yet such as Rozeta Bassline? I love the software and plan on making a few tracks once I’m done with my NS2 adventure.

    Yes. And you can record the MIDI AU output as well, unlike NS2 and BM3.

    For NS2, MIDI AU can’t be recorded with stock plugins but it can be recorded using MIDI Route in the MIDI Tools app.

  • wimwim
    edited September 2020

    @trancespotter said:

    @wim said:

    @trancespotter said:
    The lack of the step sequencer for use with the instruments REALLY boggles my mind. I know that I can create a drum track and route it to an instrument, but how come Roland, who is globally known for having a step sequencer on nearly all of its hardware synths which has contributed to the creation/popularity of house, techno, trance, among other genres, decided NOT to include it for use on its iPad DAW synth instruments? 🤷🏼‍♂️🤷🏼‍♂️🤷🏼‍♂️🤷🏼‍♂️😕😕

    Zenbeats wasn't originally designed by Roland. They bought the Stagelight app and inherited its design. Step sequencers in DAWs, for other than drums, aren't really common, so it doesn't surprise me Stagelight thought of it only for drums as well. Maybe that'll change at some point.

    Personally, I don't really get the difference. A piano roll is just a grid of notes the same as a step sequencer is to me. It just looks different. But you're not the first to want it, that's for sure.

    Anyways, does Zenbeats allow for MIDI AU yet such as Rozeta Bassline? I love the software and plan on making a few tracks once I’m done with my NS2 adventure.

    Yes. And you can record the MIDI AU output as well, unlike NS2 and BM3.

    For NS2, MIDI AU can’t be recorded with stock plugins but it can be recorded using MIDI Route in the MIDI Tools app.

    Yes, I know.

    Not on the iPhone though since MIDI Route isn't available. For that a system of routing out to Audiobus or AUM is needed.

  • There are a number of very specific steps you have to go through to record MIDI AU but it definitely works!

    The instructions below are copied, pasted and edited from a previous thread.

    (1) Add Instrument Track
    (2) Add AU Instrument to the track
    (3) Hold on the Instrument AU in the Plugins list and Tap Add MIDI Effect
    (4) Select the MIDI AU effect you want to use
    (5) Click on MIDI and turn off Pre MIDI FX
    (6) Open up the MIDI FX version
    (7) Arm The Track and press Record
    (8) Play/Start the MIDI FX
    (9) Press STOP and look at the track!

    If you've followed all the steps above you should see that the output from the MIDI AU has been recorded, complete with Automation for Pitch Bends etc

  • @wim said:
    Personally, I don't really get the difference. A piano roll is just a grid of notes the same as a step sequencer is to me. It just looks different.

    I'd say there is one fundamental difference between the step sequencer and the piano roll; the step sequencer has a more coherent representation of which parameters belong together, compared to the free-floating piano roll. This allows for scene morphing of all step parameters. For a piano roll, it would not be obvious which event pairs to morph.

  • @bleep said:

    @wim said:
    Personally, I don't really get the difference. A piano roll is just a grid of notes the same as a step sequencer is to me. It just looks different.

    I'd say there is one fundamental difference between the step sequencer and the piano roll; the step sequencer has a more coherent representation of which parameters belong together, compared to the free-floating piano roll. This allows for scene morphing of all step parameters. For a piano roll, it would not be obvious which event pairs to morph.

    Which parameters other than velocity and pitch bend belong together in various synths? How would the host app know which ones they were?

  • @trancespotter said:
    With a piano roll you have to worry about hitting the correct note as well as the length. A step sequencer hides both those items so you can just focus on the rhythm. Side note, I’m currently making goa/psytrance (90s style mind you) and making a foray into dark techno due to Zenbeats’ colors so a step sequencer is extremely helpful for this style.

    Are you wanting the step sequencer to work for drum/percussion apps or for synths in general? Just curious.

  • I was experimenting with miRack in ZenBeats and learned that midi-out from it only works if you load it as a midi FX. Audio only works if you add it as an instrument. Multi-out audio works if you add it as an instrument, then add the appropriate sub-tracks.

    I had a patch that was doing both audio and midi. It was easy enough to split it out to two patches, but I thought I'd pass that tidbit along to save anyone else trying it some time.

  • I also noticed that when using 'midi only' (Ie. a midi track without any AUv3 or Instrument loaded) it's impossible to add Midi FX AUv3's to the track...

    So if I wanted to sequence for example the iOS Sound Canvas or an external midi instrument I can not add and use any AUv3 Midi Effects on those midi tracks...

    This must surely be a bug no?

  • wimwim
    edited September 2020

    @Samu said:
    I also noticed that when using 'midi only' (Ie. a midi track without any AUv3 or Instrument loaded) it's impossible to add Midi FX AUv3's to the track...

    So if I wanted to sequence for example the iOS Sound Canvas or an external midi instrument I can not add and use any AUv3 Midi Effects on those midi tracks...

    This must surely be a bug no?

    More likely somewhat shortsighted design than a bug. Midi FX can only be added to a track that already has an instrument loaded to it. I don't think they thought that one through all the way.

    Workaround: Load any instrument on the track. Add a Midi FX and set the routing for the track to go out to the external instrument. You can now delete the instrument, leaving only the Midi FX.

  • @wim said:

    @trancespotter said:
    With a piano roll you have to worry about hitting the correct note as well as the length. A step sequencer hides both those items so you can just focus on the rhythm. Side note, I’m currently making goa/psytrance (90s style mind you) and making a foray into dark techno due to Zenbeats’ colors so a step sequencer is extremely helpful for this style.

    Are you wanting the step sequencer to work for drum/percussion apps or for synths in general? Just curious.

    I want the native step sequencer that Zenbeats uses for its drums/sampler to be optionally used for Zenbeats synths. As of right now when I create a new Zenbeats drum track I can use the native step sequencer OR switch to using the native piano roll-esque view by tapping the button at the top right:

    However, when I create a new Zenbeats instrument track I can only use the native piano roll because there is no option to switch to the native step sequencer:

    I figure it would be a very easy addition since the functionality is already there for drums so it would simply just need to be added to instruments.

    I’d prefer to use the native Zenbeats step sequencer for instruments rather than using an external AU MIDI step sequencer like Rozeta Bassline, for example, mainly due to

    1) Rozeta Bassline doesn’t have any sort of divider between 4 steps, which means I have to manually count the steps if I want to add a step on, let’s say, the 10th step. The Zenbeats native step sequencer does have a divider in the form of a lighter shade of black/gray for each 4 steps so it’s easier to find that 10th step rather than counting.

    2) This may sound silly, but the aesthetics/colors of Rozeta Bassline (bright baby blue) clashes with the (default) dark Blade Runner-esque aesthetic of Zenbeats. It kinda throws me off and gets me out of the dark psy/goa mind state and more into the happy pop-stadium trance mood.

    3) The creative aspect I mentioned earlier of focusing more on the rhythm rather than the notes since that’s how goa is/was produced.

    To clarify, I absolutely love Rozeta and used it in my NS2 tracks that I’ll hopefully be posting before the end of the month for critiques (my first public releases! 😀), but I’d like to try out Zenbeats a bit more (I tried it when it first came out a few months ago) especially since it has the optional Ableton loop creation format and I want to see how it affects my creativity . Plus the native Zenbeats synths sounds interesting in a good 90’s goa/psytrance way 👍

  • wimwim
    edited September 2020

    Thanks for the insight @trancespotter - very interesting. B)

    Did you know that you can send the output from a drum sequencer track to another track? Long press MIDI, then select Advanced Midi. You can set the output to a different track in the top-right of that dialog. Sure, it requires two tracks, but it works. Unfortunately the only way to pick which notes to play is to move tracks up and down, so impractical for my uses however.

  • @wim said:
    Thanks for the insight @trancespotter - very interesting. B)

    Did you know that you can send the output from a drum sequencer track to another track? Long press MIDI, then select Advanced Midi. You can set the output to a different track in the top-right of that dialog. Sure, it requires two tracks, but it works. Unfortunately the only way to pick which notes to play is to move tracks up and down, so impractical for my uses however.

    Ya, that’s what I meant in my OP when I said “ I know that I can create a drum track and route it to an instrument...” I figure since Roland has famous synths that have created famous melodies/basslines using the step sequencer rather than the piano roll they would have that feature in their first official DAW even though it originally started as Stagelight. And since the step sequencer already works great for drum tracks it doesn’t seem like that much of a development cost to add it to synths.

  • edited September 2020

    @wim said:

    @bleep said:

    @wim said:
    Personally, I don't really get the difference. A piano roll is just a grid of notes the same as a step sequencer is to me. It just looks different.

    I'd say there is one fundamental difference between the step sequencer and the piano roll; the step sequencer has a more coherent representation of which parameters belong together, compared to the free-floating piano roll. This allows for scene morphing of all step parameters. For a piano roll, it would not be obvious which event pairs to morph.

    Which parameters other than velocity and pitch bend belong together in various synths? How would the host app know which ones they were?

    Well, imagine just the timing of events. A step sequencer could have scene A as neutral, and scene B could have every odd step shifted 1/8th forward in time and every even step delayed 1/8th in time. Now you could use a morph slider to test how the pattern sound with 1/16 or 1/32 shifts backward and forward, etc, by sliding towards the neutral scene. With a piano roll setup, it wouldn't be obvious how to shift these events as you modify a morphing slider.

  • wimwim
    edited September 2020

    I'm confused. Zenbeats has none of these things does it? Or are you just expanding on the idea in general terms?

    When you said parameters, I was thinking of parameters in general synths, such as filter cutoff, resonance, etc. Now I'm not sure I'm following you. Thanks for your patience. Tryin' to learn here.

  • I was just responding to the general statement that a piano roll is no different than a step sequencer, they are just events on a grid.

  • @bleep said:
    I was just responding to the general statement that a piano roll is no different than a step sequencer, they are just events on a grid.

    OK thanks. 👍🏼

    (For the record, I didn't mean it's no different, only that I don't see a significant difference myself. I was looking for answers just like you and @trancespotter have given.)

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