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Sync problem with Cubasis2
I am having a consistent problem mixing down projects in CB2. The result is often out of sync when I am using a combination of audio and midi tracks. Real-time mixdown does not help, and when I freeze the tracks they are consistently longer than the midi. This happens with apps like Module
(Even when I record an audio track and make a parallel midi track of it), ISymphonic and iFretless apps. Here is what it looks like...
This is pretty frustrating and was not an issue until the last update (I think) except with iSymphonic. Any ideas as to why?
Any opinions if Cubasis3 might be a solution? Help! And thanks.
Comments
I froze a midi track in Cubasis 3 yesterday and it was a lot longer than expected.
Is it easy to stretch them back in sync?
@IOSSOS, you would think so, but when I stretch or reduce a track it starts off in sync but then drifts apart...
Yet the tracks are of equal length on the timeline. Too fucking weird.
Include fx tail?!
Could be. I was testing out mdi freezing so I wasn't paying much attention. I shall check and report back
This also feels like a potential sample-rate issue!
For example BH has it's own built-in sample-rate setting (that also affect the AUv3!) and it can and will cause issues if it doesn't match the sample-rate set by either hardware or the host app.
Some hosts can force a sample rate (for example ZenBeats) but even then it's not 'fail safe' when it comes to rendering and freezing tracks and also makes things considerably more laggy as CoreAudio has to resample 'everything' all the time...
Also if there's any kind of compressors or limiters involved on the tracks they will cause some latency which Cubasis does not compensate for (not even for it's built-in compressors and limiters!(Waves Ultramaximiser, Mastering Effects etc) making things go wonky.
Hopefully someday freezing tracks in iOS DAWs will mature to the desktop level where this is a 'non issue' (I've never had issues with freezing and bouncing tracks in Logic Pro X no matter what kind of plug-ins I throw at it).
I don't think @LFS and his team will keep on updating Cubasis 2 for too long so best bet is to slowly start migrating to Cubasis 3 and hope the issues will get sorted out...
...within a year or two.
Hopefully all gets sorted out one way or the other!
Cheers!
A lot of pre-Cubasis 3 time has passed since this bug had been reported repeatedly to the Steinberg team. Some bugs like this one or the clock sync bug or the sampler loop bug and I don't know how many others just never get fixed.
Freeze in Cubasis 3 works most of the time unless the track has plug-ins that need delay compensation such as the Cubasis 3's new Mastering Plug-In, The Waves IAP Plug-Ins, FabFilter C2,L2, G, FAC Maxima, BeatFormer etc. etc. etc.
When freezing 'loops' (between locators) the resulting loops will not loop without hiccups
Yepp, that is what PDC (Plug-In Delay Compensation) is for but at the moment Cubasis 2 & 3 do not provide that function...
...not even for the built-in plug-ins which is kinda weird.
@Samu, I switched the instrument on the problem midi track from iFretless Sax to Cubasis Microsonic acoustic piano. Same issue. Does this change your opinion about sampling being the problem? I wonder if it has to do with creating a midi track at the same time alongside an audio recording. This is the case here and it also ha pens when I record audio and midi simultaneously out of Korg Module.
What if you glue all the separate midi events together in a track before freeze?
Interesting!
Another suspicion here (only based on the screenshots where some of the tracks freeze properly) is that on the tracks where things go crazy there are multiple midi-events / sections that might confuse the freeze engine so one test would be to 'glue' all the midi-events on one track into a long midi-event before freezing and see if that changes things? (easiest is to select all events on the track and use 'glue').
Anyways this is a classic case to send to the Cubasis team and ask them why things screw up when freezing...
(It's most like 'oops, we didn't think about that use-case' and honestly I don't know how much Q&A they do before release but apparently it's not enough as things like these slip thru).
Currently I'm a bit 'out of energy' regarding various iOS issues and spend more time with Logic and Renoise on my Mac using the iPad as a sound module.
Cheers!
@GLacey, @Samu ... no difference with a glued midi track. Good idea, tho. Samu, I hope you will still be advising here. You are always solid with your knowledge and suggestions. You’re a huge asset to the forum. And you are assiduously circumspect with the off topic blather that many of us participate in. Kudos to you.
@LinearLineman - are there any FX plugins on that track?
@wim, yes, but nothing unusual. Waves Ultamaximizer, Kleverb, Cubasis channel strip, Cubasis EQ.
You know, if you look at the tracks there are freezes from a year ago. No problem then. It is a bug with the combination of recording audio and midi tracks from the same source, I think.
Often it's easier to find problems if you "eliminate what it's not". So removing all those FX and trying again (after making a safe copy of the project) is a good troubleshooting step.
No worries, I’ll still be here
It’s just that the issues that pop up are pretty old and still remain unfixed giving me the feeling that there is no real commitment to fix them, and it’s not just Cubasis but other apps and hosts too...
And it feels like the momentum is slowing down a lot.
Lets see what the next Cubasis 3 update will bring, ZenBeats was just updated so I’ll be digging into to that today
Cheers!
Hi @mistercharlie,
It is important to know, if the issue might be related to a 3rd party AU plug-in.
In this case, you can give the "Real-time Mixdown and Freeze" issue a try, which is located under "Setup/Mixdown / Freeze".
Please keep me updated, and inform the 3rd party app vendor as well.
Best wishes,
Lars
@LinearLineman
Hi Mike,
Please follow the exact procedure, mentioned in our PM conversation:
"Hi Mike,
Thanks for your message.
So far we're not aware of Mixdown issues with CB2 and/or CB3.
Could the problems be related to or introduced by specific AU plug-ins, used in the project?
I'd suggest the following:
From here:
If things work as expected, load the 3rd party apps piece by piece and create further mixdown versions.
If you are able to reproduce the problem, please share the name of the 3rd party app with me which creates the issue.
Best wishes,
Lars"
For 3rd party plug-ins which fail to properly render, you can enable the "Real-time Mixdown and Freeze" option, located under "Setup/Mixdown / Freeze".
Best,
Lars
@LinearLineman
i dont have those AUv3 , but ... armed 1 midi and 1 audio, pressed record no quant, freezeed the tracks on and off also did mixdown, even with waves max and ddmf enabled it stayed in sync.. even recorded my xstation hardware synth on one track to test. not much help but thought id share anyway (cb3 3.1.1)
Thanks, @noob. I believe the problem lies in recording an audio track with an accompanying midi track. I think the midi track is somehow corrupted. This was not always a problem and I think got generated accidentally with an update. Just an opinion, of course. I will go for Cubasis3 in the near future, but meantime I will just avoid using apps, like Korg Module that requires an additional track to create midi in Cubasis and other DAWs.
can you try clean sheet new project and test midi+audio record same time again just to reproduce the error? ah wait same in other daws with module?.mite be a Korg thing then.. ouf not sure cb3 will help then tbh
Actually @noob, the original track I am showing had the audio and midi recorded thru a Steinberg AI from a Kawai keyboard. It was not a problem to mixdown when recorded in 2019. Now it is. I have tried the Korg setup several times and always the same problem. So, two different sources and the same result.
I have to think an update caused the bug, but it is an unknowledgeable guess!
right so this error came up after the last cubasis2 update... last resort - reinstall cb2 and the AUs used in the project
@noob, then all my projects disappear, no? I think this is just a fait accompli. No real problem. And there is always CB3 to hope for a correction. That spurs me on to get it.
hmm..yeah you’re right, maybe not nuke the ipad just for that project.. and tbh cb3 is really good now, but you mite wanna wait til next update, see what @LFS bring
@noob best to just look forward. When I think of the value and pleasure I have gotten out of CB2 for
a mere fifty bucks it is shocking. Perhaps the greatest bang per dollar I have ever gotten for any purchase! Thanks to @LFS and Steinberg for an amazing piece of software.