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Audiobus is the app that makes the rest of your setup better.

My view on ir cabs.

@SNystrom asked me in another thread if i used the same ir cab for all my videos.
It is a good question.
No,i dont.
My choice will depend of what sound i’m after.For me,the speaker is 70 % of a great guitar sound.
The best equalizer ever.A great amp (hardware),can sound really bad if plugged in a bad cab with bad speakers.
Guitar players are commonly more interested in buying new pedals or whatever gadget,but speakers and cabs are often neglicted.
Same thing is true with amp sims.Most of them sound great.really,but all of them suffer from bad cab simulation.
Ir cabs are a real plus concerning guitar sounds.
About what i use,once again it depends of what sound i’m after.Mellow,aggressive,singing,cutting...?
I think one the most important thing is to know what you are looking for.
Sometimes,some things not supposed working well together sound great.
An alnico speaker is not supposed sounding good with hi gain amps,but hey,try it you might be surprised.
One important thing is:if your amp sounds bright,brittle,go for a darker cab (or ir cab).
Do the opposite if your amp is rather on the dark side.
Try buying GOOD ir cabs (ownhammer,ml sound lab etc...).The difference is HUGE.There are a lot free ones on the internet.
I have tried most of them.i’ve never really been convinced by most of them.
Buying good ones is really a good investement for every guitar player.
Then,experiment,use your ears,and you should be good.
Thanks!
Flo

Comments

  • Well put and good advice. I’ll never be at the level you and many others play at, but I always heed the advice and very much enjoy watching your (and others!) videos

  • Thanks for the info, Flo!

    I was jamming with Sound Master last night and discovered the same thing about how different IRs can truly affect the tonal spectrum. I found different cabs sounded better on each of the two channels — one for better cleans, another for some grinding grit.

    I wonder if guitarists actually appreciate how lucky we are to not only be able switch between dozens of cabinets as well as equally easily swapping world-class amps — by only lifting a finger.

  • Been playing guitar for more than 30 years and was a complete idiot with tone for most of the early years. I would say that @flo26 estimate that speaker is 70% of electric tone is prolly conservative.

  • edited July 2020

    This is super insightful.

    For me, good guitar tone in real life is easy: I know what amps I like, what guitars, and what stomp boxes to use. No sweat. The rest is in my hands, that being the hardest bit, of course.

    Recreating these tones virtually is a whole different game. Amp sims don't always behave or sound like the amps they purport to emulate, then you have to deal with input gain from your interface, cabinet emulations... What you may think is a recreation of your perfect rig may end up sounding nothing like the real thing.

    The ultimate test, however, is your EARS. Does it sound good to you? I often forget to turn off my eyes and brain and just listen.

    Once you've done all that: go watch @flo26 videos and see how a master does it. 😉

  • wimwim
    edited July 2020

    There's also no real substitute for moving real air to real ears and especially it's interaction with the strings. I don't expect to ever fully get the dynamics and feel playing through earbuds, or even through monitors unless they're cranked. Still ... I continually try, because hey, I'm a guitar player. That's what we do to avoid practicing. ;)

  • You bring-up an excellent point.

    I have a couple of friends who I used be in a band with and we have discussed getting together in one of the distant towns we each live in.

    I was thinking about what would use to amplify my guitar in the band. Would probably think a very neutral amp like a Roland Jazz Chours.

    In the past, I've just jacked into the PA, which is not terrible (depending on the PA!).

  • Any thoughts???

  • @SNystrom said:
    Any thoughts???

    Must be a personal thing.
    Like some don't worry playing tiny keyboards on glass vs others that need a proper weighted piano keyboard.
    I know many guitarists who don't feel good as long as their amp(s) & cab(s) aren't shaking the air but anyway, good tone is much more fun to play, isn't it?

  • @SNystrom said:
    You bring-up an excellent point.

    I have a couple of friends who I used be in a band with and we have discussed getting together in one of the distant towns we each live in.

    I was thinking about what would use to amplify my guitar in the band. Would probably think a very neutral amp like a Roland Jazz Chours.

    In the past, I've just jacked into the PA, which is not terrible (depending on the PA!).

    I play JC120 or JC77 for most of my guitar stuff. They don't do dirt well and get pretty ugly when turned up too much. But if you want mainly clean and the best chorus/vibe they are great amps.

    My amp I use for dirt/rock is a 68 AC50 into a 2x12 with Greenback and G12h30. Ironically none of the greenback or G12h30 IRs sound like them at all. The Celestion V30 IR I got for free ages ago sounds most like it.

    Agree with Flo, speakers are min 70%. I can play my AIWA TP-1001 tape machine into my cab and it legit sounds like a dimed plexi.

  • I guess what I’m looking for is an option to send my iPad (Nembrini, AmpliTube, or GE Labs) audio out in a live environment.

    I’m just looking for an audio device that won’t degrade or otherwise color my app sim tone.

    Perhaps running it through the PA is perhaps the best way to go?

  • edited July 2020

    Any small audio interface that has in and out would do I should think. I use the Shure MVi for my guitar into iOS. It is an 1/8” out though. I know that is a dealbreaker for some. Tried it once with a Roland cube and got some pretty good results. Definitely want to dial down the reverb though. Nothing worse than going to a coffee shop and the guy is drowning in reverb...and the same would apply in a love band setting too I imagine.

  • edited July 2020

    @SNystrom Something close to an FRFR cab setup is what you want. The Alto TS310s are very popular on some forums because they sound great and they are cheap. I have one of those and for the other side I use a Tech 21 60W Power Edge (like a small guitar cab with a solid state amp in it). Since the IR rolls off all the frequencies a cab normally would you can just stick the signal into the actual PA but be aware that you then might not be able to hear your own sound unless you’ve got a good stage mix or IEMs.

  • Thanks qryss, that sounds like a pretty solid option!

    Here a link if anyone else is interested:

    https://www.altoprofessional.com/products/ts310

  • @flo26 said:
    @SNystrom asked me in another thread if i used the same ir cab for all my videos.
    It is a good question.
    No,i dont.
    My choice will depend of what sound i’m after.For me,the speaker is 70 % of a great guitar sound.
    The best equalizer ever.A great amp (hardware),can sound really bad if plugged in a bad cab with bad speakers.
    Guitar players are commonly more interested in buying new pedals or whatever gadget,but speakers and cabs are often neglicted.
    Same thing is true with amp sims.Most of them sound great.really,but all of them suffer from bad cab simulation.
    Ir cabs are a real plus concerning guitar sounds.
    About what i use,once again it depends of what sound i’m after.Mellow,aggressive,singing,cutting...?
    I think one the most important thing is to know what you are looking for.
    Sometimes,some things not supposed working well together sound great.
    An alnico speaker is not supposed sounding good with hi gain amps,but hey,try it you might be surprised.
    One important thing is:if your amp sounds bright,brittle,go for a darker cab (or ir cab).
    Do the opposite if your amp is rather on the dark side.
    Try buying GOOD ir cabs (ownhammer,ml sound lab etc...).The difference is HUGE.There are a lot free ones on the internet.
    I have tried most of them.i’ve never really been convinced by most of them.
    Buying good ones is really a good investement for every guitar player.
    Then,experiment,use your ears,and you should be good.
    Thanks!
    Flo

    i’m very curious about this subject as i am starting to use software amp simulators that accept Impulse responses. so what are some of the best IR’s you have found so far? what makes a good IR vs a bad one? thanks

  • @Daveypoo said:
    This is super insightful.

    For me, good guitar tone in real life is easy: I know what amps I like, what guitars, and what stomp boxes to use. No sweat. The rest is in my hands, that being the hardest bit, of course.

    Recreating these tones virtually is a whole different game. Amp sims don't always behave or sound like the amps they purport to emulate, then you have to deal with input gain from your interface, cabinet emulations... What you may think is a recreation of your perfect rig may end up sounding nothing like the real thing.

    The ultimate test, however, is your EARS. Does it sound good to you? I often forget to turn off my eyes and brain and just listen.

    Once you've done all that: go watch @flo26 videos and see how a master does it. 😉

    100% agree. real amps are so easy to get the tone you want. virtual amps are getting a lot closer, but i don’t know if the will ever get there. there is just something about the way the cabinet vibrates the air, that makes all the difference. even if you couldn’t hear the amp, the the movement of the air in the room, kind of help you fine tune how the amp is reacting and pumping out sound. also he attack time for when you pick hits the strings is so much faster. and also, feedback on a real amp is so much fun.
    hopefully virtual amps will get there because they are nice especially when it needs to be quiet.

  • 100% agree. real amps are so easy to get the tone you want. virtual amps are getting a lot closer, but i don’t know if the will ever get there. there is just something about the way the cabinet vibrates the air, that makes all the difference. even if you couldn’t hear the amp, the the movement of the air in the room, kind of help you fine tune how the amp is reacting and pumping out sound. also he attack time for when you pick hits the strings is so much faster. and also, feedback on a real amp is so much fun.
    hopefully virtual amps will get there because they are nice especially when it needs to be quiet.

    I don't view virtual guitar rigs as a REPLACEMENT for amps as you're right, the physical experience can never be replicated. I feel even more strongly about that same experience with bass - there is nothing better than playing so loud that your can feel you body vibrating.

    That being said, I do think that they can strongly substitute for a recording session. The thing that I think a lot of people forget is that when you're alone in the room with any instrument there are a lot of subtleties that you can hear as there is no sonic interference. As soon as you start introducing other instruments voca, ls, equalization, effects, etc that's when you start getting frequencies that conflict with each other. If you notice when you're doing a drum mix and you add and other instruments, all the sudden you might not be able to hear the high-end on the cymbals for example. So what ends up happening, is that you spend all your time creating the greatest guitar tone in the world in your bedroom when it's completely silent, yet it may sound entirely different once you've introduced the rest of the mix. Because of this, I only let myself get so wrapped up in the tone, because I understand that later on that tone is going to change, potentially drastically. So I'd adopted a "it's good enough" attitude about guitar tone, but now I've decided it's time to push a little further to blur that area between live rig in virtual setup.

    Does that make sense?

  • @Daveypoo said:
    Does that make sense?

    Absolutely. IOS is purely virtual. It can synthesize analog sound making and mix audio
    recordings.

    When @flo26 analyzes the value of an Amp Sim he's seeking a product to displace hardware and drive his speakers with a good simulacrum of the real deal.

    I'm seeking something that generates audio recordings that displace the need for
    any hardware at all. I can make better Piano tracks with Ravescroft 275 than I ever could
    with mic's on a piano in my home (tho' there was a time when I had one worth recording).

    @flo26's love of IR files is yet another decision he makes to get closer to the tones he's
    experienced in the real world. I do not have any of that knowledge and all his demos sell
    products to me but I'm really chasing his skills and not getting much closer anytime soon.

    You, @Daveypoo, also have a lot of live experience and want to play the which pieces of
    kit can I just leave at home when you play live. I can't blame you for that. But the audience
    in most cases isn't hearing the small differences. Close enough to get paid is OK.

    But the comments around live stability drive most pros to depend on the best equipment
    to get and keep the job like a well maintained Fender or Marshall amp.

  • @McD said:

    When @flo26 analyzes the value of an Amp Sim he's seeking a product to displace hardware and drive his speakers with a good simulacrum of the real deal.

    The IRs are a fundamental part of that though. Speakers in guitar amps are not the same as in hi fi or monitor scenarios, they are very coloured. I had downplayed this a bit myself, but stepping through the IRs in one of the Nembrini apps shows the vast difference in tone the speakers/cabs/mics make. Turn them off completely and it's usually a pretty nasty sound.

  • edited July 2020

    @SimonSomeone said:

    @McD said:

    When @flo26 analyzes the value of an Amp Sim he's seeking a product to displace hardware and drive his speakers with a good simulacrum of the real deal.

    The IRs are a fundamental part of that though. Speakers in guitar amps are not the same as in hi fi or monitor scenarios, they are very coloured. I had downplayed this a bit myself, but stepping through the IRs in one of the Nembrini apps shows the vast difference in tone the speakers/cabs/mics make. Turn them off completely and it's usually a pretty nasty sound.

    Exactly my experience, not only with guitar cabs but other types of IRs too.
    One developer here recently claimed that he'd be able to emulate any guitar cab by EQ'ing, I didn't comment on that but from my own experience I completely disagree tbh.

  • @rs2000 said:

    @SimonSomeone said:

    @McD said:

    When @flo26 analyzes the value of an Amp Sim he's seeking a product to displace hardware and drive his speakers with a good simulacrum of the real deal.

    The IRs are a fundamental part of that though. Speakers in guitar amps are not the same as in hi fi or monitor scenarios, they are very coloured. I had downplayed this a bit myself, but stepping through the IRs in one of the Nembrini apps shows the vast difference in tone the speakers/cabs/mics make. Turn them off completely and it's usually a pretty nasty sound.

    Exactly my experience, not only with guitar cabs but other types of IRs too.
    One developer here recently claimed that he'd be able to emulate any guitar cab by EQ'ing, I didn't comment on that but from my own experience I completely disagree tbh.

    @rs2000 said:

    @SimonSomeone said:

    @McD said:

    When @flo26 analyzes the value of an Amp Sim he's seeking a product to displace hardware and drive his speakers with a good simulacrum of the real deal.

    The IRs are a fundamental part of that though. Speakers in guitar amps are not the same as in hi fi or monitor scenarios, they are very coloured. I had downplayed this a bit myself, but stepping through the IRs in one of the Nembrini apps shows the vast difference in tone the speakers/cabs/mics make. Turn them off completely and it's usually a pretty nasty sound.

    Exactly my experience, not only with guitar cabs but other types of IRs too.
    One developer here recently claimed that he'd be able to emulate any guitar cab by EQ'ing, I didn't comment on that but from my own experience I completely disagree tbh.

    I totally agree with that dev. In simple terms a guitar cab is really just an LPF and that's what cab simulation was/is on sansamps and early modellers.

    So much of guitar tones people think are amps on classic albums are just direct into the console with LPF.

  • @BroCoast said:

    So much of guitar tones people think are amps on classic albums are just direct into the console with LPF.

    I'm pretty dubious of this. What classic albums? Classic implies some age to me. meaning probably pre modellers. Meaning amps, which had speakers. I've never heard of any classic guitar tones that were done direct, but I'm open to being corrected because I don't know everything.

    I know Tuck Andress didn't use guitar amps, but he had a particularly clean jazz sound. The only other tones that I've wondered about were those favoured by 10cc in the 80s which were distinctive kinda transistory scratchy tones. Neither of which I would consider 'classic'.

  • edited July 2020

    @SimonSomeone said:

    @BroCoast said:

    So much of guitar tones people think are amps on classic albums are just direct into the console with LPF.

    I'm pretty dubious of this. What classic albums? Classic implies some age to me. meaning probably pre modellers. Meaning amps, which had speakers. I've never heard of any classic guitar tones that were done direct, but I'm open to being corrected because I don't know everything.

    I know Tuck Andress didn't use guitar amps, but he had a particularly clean jazz sound. The only other tones that I've wondered about were those favoured by 10cc in the 80s which were distinctive kinda transistory scratchy tones. Neither of which I would consider 'classic'.

    Tuck is a legend!

    But yes common since the 50's. Either getting distortion from the desk (Revolution) or clean sounds (Chic/Nile Rodgers.)

    One thing to note with these direct sounds is the player was in front of monitors usually so there was still the relationship between strings and speaker.

    This album is ampless:

    Guitar > Marshall Supa Fuzz > Wah > Schulte Phaser > Schaller Rotorsound > Revox A77 > Teac 3340.

  • @flo26 said:
    Guitar players are commonly more interested in buying new pedals or whatever gadget, but speakers and cabs are often neglected.

    Picks too. Nothing changes guitar tone faster or cheaper than changing your pick.

  • Once you get in to the minutiae it’s never ending...a real amp in the same room can sound totally different day to day , I’m sure we’ve all had days when the sound has been great but then come back the exact same set up and it’s just not quite the same.... Never mind what it sounds like in a different room.
    Real amp, modeller, eq, irs or ukulele through a tiny Bluetooth speaker, personally I don’t give a fuck, if it sounds good it is good.
    The Beatles Revolution ,Fripp on Heroes, Zeppelin ‘s black dog All apparently straight into the desk.

  • Heroes? But there are all the stories of Fripp getting that sustain from standing in exactly the right spot.

    E.g. https://www.bowiebible.com/albums/heroes/5/

  • @mjcouche 😅
    To each his own.

  • edited July 2020

    @qryss said:
    Heroes? But there are all the stories of Fripp getting that sustain from standing in exactly the right spot.

    E.g. https://www.bowiebible.com/albums/heroes/5/

    They had big mains in the live room usually so it could of been direct after the VCS but Heroes sounds like a mic'd amp to me.

    Eno was big on using feedback through the mains back into the live room.

  • Just read a bit more about Fripp and heroes, apparently he was plugged into Eno’s EMS Synthi and played at deafening volume To get the feedback while ENO played with the Synthi controls ..quite a long way way from traditional guitar amp / speaker configuration.

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