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Blue Sky Or Hurricanes / jankun and Daveypoo

edited April 2020 in Creations

Two versions, this time, of my improvised melody and considered lyrics.

The first by @Daveypoo.
Dave’s arrangement and playing with me on keyboard. Jankun’s vocal.

The second, very different arrangement, by @Jankun. Arrangement, singing and playing by Jankun
With my keyboard part.

Comments invited!

Comments

  • I like it!

  • I like both.
    Maybe too many drum breaks,but that’s only my taste😉.
    Bravo guys!
    Flo

  • Hey - thanks for listening, @flo26

  • McDMcD
    edited April 2020

    I also like them both. You guys are working well together using the strengths of each member of the team. I'd love to fix those drum parts with a little better sensitivity to the tune. Less is more in this case, IMHO. Probably could be fixed easily with a simple loop...

    In college my roommate a trombone player was playing when the bandleader auditioned drummers and I was in the running... he commented later on one of my competitors that he turned his head and thought "What IS that guy building back there." The director had a similar thought... great chops but zero taste. It was the director's tune and he was NOT a Buddy Rich fan. His favorite drummer was Mel Lewis. I knew that after chatting at a Buddy Rich Big Band concert. So, I just focused on a basic groove that made the tune work... a classic shuffle. No hint of any technical skills other than a desire to make the tune work. It really had a groove and the band came alive feeling their power in the ensemble. We danced musically.

    Then my ex-high school rival who was at the same University got his turn and he also made the tune work (we learned from each other and a good high school teacher to play without ego) but then told the director I could play Vibes too. Clever prick.

    So, I got the Vibe assignment I didn't want but the director wanted more colors and had me play some 12 ball blues and sealed my fate. 3 months later he fired the other drummer and I got my drums back into the band for a concert with zero rehearsal because the other jerk had a playing gig, a kid and a wife. Like he could come back after bailing for $50? Like I said... a jerk.

    When I hear interviews with the great groove drummers they preach the same mantra: what does the music want?

    This music wants a drummer with some ears. There should be an app for that... until then find loops of great groove artists: Purdie, Rick Marotta, Steve Gadd, or anyone that ever played for Steely Dan. Start with a great groove as the first track and you'll never have this problem... you can mix in more fills later from Lumbeats but the tune will work best with a perfect groove. Writing a program for one will just sound close but never right. It's a matter of human sensitivity like a great instrumentalist.

    Carry on. My 2 cents.

  • edited April 2020

    @McD while that is an incredibly detailed and studied response, there are two separate versions with two completely different attitudes and more specifically, completely different drum parts.

    Which one are you talking about? Both? Some more targeted feedback would go a long way to helping us ingest your recommendations and understand the best way to apply them moving forward.

    SPECIFICITY, MAN!

  • That’s good stuff, @McD. Yeah, you’re just right for playing some “12 ball blues”🤣. And you did go for good vibes, so yhat’s what you got. Ever listen to Jean Shepherd? He told stories like that on steroids.
    Personally, I have come to use Lumbeat apps more cautiously than I used to. Many less changes than I am otherwise inclined toward. Generally just playing the jam intensity slider back and forth. Don’t even use the fills button much.

    I am impressed with Dave’s ability to put together a computerized drum part. He gets a real human feel, I think. Maybe because he is one.

  • @Daveypoo said:
    @McD while that is an incredibly detailed and studied response, there are two separate versions with two completely different attitudes and more specifically, completely different drum parts.

    Which one are you talking about? Both? Some more targeted feedback would go a long way to helping us ingest your recommendations and understand the best way to apply them moving forward.

    Both have that robot drummer that isn't listening for any context... we have become insensitive to it and just tend to ignore it but highly successful music rarely has these "phone it in" drummers. I do know that it's a huge problem without a simple solution.
    People have grown to like robot drummers that just uses different non-acoustic sounds as a solution.

    You can't ingest my recommendations easily but I'll repeat what I think works best:

    Find a loop of a great drummer and build on it.

    That's usually the best you can do to fool a perceptive listener looking for robots and discounting your work as a result. Most great Hip Hop starts with a killer drum loop but they have taken to just preferring to located unusual sounds as a fall back. But they do use their judgement in that selection process and get rewards for being fresh.

    This is opinion and not intended to disparage the work of the team... just explain what I would change. I purposely avoided getting into anyone that a human might have produced. That would be uncool. Not going there. But we can all be dicks about someone else's baby.

  • edited April 2020

    @McD said:

    @Daveypoo said:
    @McD while that is an incredibly detailed and studied response, there are two separate versions with two completely different attitudes and more specifically, completely different drum parts.

    Which one are you talking about? Both? Some more targeted feedback would go a long way to helping us ingest your recommendations and understand the best way to apply them moving forward.

    Both have that robot drummer that isn't listening for any context... we have become insensitive to it and just tend to ignore it but highly successful music rarely has these "phone it in" drummers. I do know that it's a huge problem without a simple solution.
    People have grown to like robot drummers that just uses different non-acoustic sounds as a solution.

    You can't ingest my recommendations easily but I'll repeat what I think works best:

    Find a loop of a great drummer and build on it.

    That's usually the best you can do to fool a perceptive listener looking for robots and discounting your work as a result. Most great Hip Hop starts with a killer drum loop but they have taken to just preferring to located unusual sounds as a fall back. But they do use their judgement in that selection process and get rewards for being fresh.

    This is opinion and not intended to disparage the work of the team... just explain what I would change. I purposely avoided getting into anyone that a human might have produced. That would be uncool. Not going there. But we can all be dicks about someone else's baby.

    While I can't speak for Jankun's rationale, I'm gonna push back in regards to my own arrangement.

    I disagree wholeheartedly that the drums on my track are not listening for context - in fact, the drums lead the arrangement in many ways. The fills were specifically chosen for context and to telegraph the next compositional change - moving to half time, moving to a steady Motown beat, etc. The drum part is composed to move with the song - the "drummer" plays the ride for the softer opening, shifts to an 8th note hi hat groove mid way through, to a 16th note hi hat groove later in the tune, deliberately chosen to provide forward movement for the track while still remaining contextually relevant.

    That's not to say they sound 100% "real" - of course they don't. However, your implication is that the drums were slapped into the track without forethought and left to loop for the remainder of the tune, or that the fills were slapped in with the same lack of sensitivity to the song. It's this that I push back on as that is certainly not the case.

    I certainly appreciate the feedback, and if you simply don't dig it, well that's fine - there's no accounting for taste. Perhaps it's simply a stylistic difference between how you would approach this as a drummer compared to how I approached it as a drummer - that's understandable. But I definitely bristle at the implication that the drums were not composed with a sensitivity to the tune as this is absolutely not the case.

  • @Daveypoo said:
    I certainly appreciate the feedback, and if you simply don't dig it, well that's fine - there's no accounting for taste.

    I'm not being completely honest with you... Did you ever watch an A&R man listening to auditor tapes. I'll give you a fair listening using you notes for reference and see if you can move me to comment more on your work. I'll pass on what really bothered me with Track #1 but the mix of the drums seemed to bury the vocals but the vocalist doesn't have a voice for cutting through so it's a tough challenge. The second track dod work more to the strengths of the vocal but the drums are too busy for my tastes. Good singer if his special qualities can be heard without so much distraction. Changing the singer on the track would also help me ignore the drums and let it go but... I do try not to go negative with feedback because I know it's painful.

    Please accept my apologies for maligning your work. As I indicate I tuned out really fast on track #1. Sorry since Track #2 was an option.

    Both tracks show real promise and I'd like to see more collabs from you. I like all your work as a rule.

    I hope you make some more Bites this week and get some more Patreon support.

  • edited April 2020

    @McD said:
    Please accept my apologies for maligning your work.

    Not maligning - just providing requested feedback, and I always appreciate your opinion. Your comment struck a nerve because I spent literally HOURS getting those drums to be just what I wanted and heard, and your comments about the drums not playing to the tune didn't seem applicable. You're definitely entitled to not like what I did - it's not everyone's jam for sure - I just wanted to make sure you gave each tune it's individual due.

    Now, in regards to my boy Jankun - I would say his drum tracks are an artistic choice. Frankly, the mashup of hip-hop styled, heavily processed drums against a more standard jazz keyboard track reminds me of Ronny Jordan's version of Miles Davis' So What:

    So, not without precedent, though potentially not as polished. I like that his approach was to come at it from a more modern, electronic/hip-hop space than my ape-ing mid-70's jazz funk. I used the term "angular" when I first heard it and I feel like it still fits. It's certainly more raw and edgier than my take, but certainly just as valid.

    Given that we live in an age where a fair portion, perhaps a majority, of the music available is NOT made by or to musical recording standards of eras past. Frankly, I feel like we're all the better for it as it allows more freedom to step outside those preconceptions of what a mix or an arrangement SHOULD be. I particularly dig the vocals at the end that add some blur to the mix...

    Anyway, no offense taken, Sir @McD . Providing some food for thought...

  • @Daveypoo said:
    Your comment struck a nerve because I spent literally HOURS getting those drums to be just what I wanted

    Ouch. I almost just didn't comment at all since I'm sure my mood today makes me extra careless with someone's baby.

    I should close the lid and binge something good. We're watching the Amy Winehouse bio.
    Tragic but like SRV... so much to digest for years in her catalogue. The Tony Benette duos are a vocal masterclass in storytelling (like a great actor inhabiting a role) and being a musical instrument in the same recording. There's a lot of technique involved that just sounds like someone talking in with music.

  • edited April 2020

    Hey man, ALL our emotions are running hot nowadays, so don't feel like you need to mince words. Again, just backing up my position. In years past I would've deferred to your opinion out of lack of interest in an argument. Nowadays I just don't give a fuck and back myself up, consequences be damned.

    😘

  • @Daveypoo said:
    Hey man, ALL our emotions are running hot nowadays, so don't feel like you need to mince words. Again, just backing up my position. In years past I would've deferred to your opinion out of lack of interest in an argument. Nowadays I just don't give a fuck and back myself up, consequences be damned.

    I'm always willing to give anything a second listen and retract hasty assessment. Lumping 2 tracks into a single comment about the drums was careless.

    I'm sure @JanKun is also angry about the work vs the causal review. Been there and done that. I go back to my first posting often and have to rationalize that the first reaction of anyone is to point out what can be fixed and usually not much more except. "Looking forward to you talking my advice."

    But those comments have hung over ny relationship to this day. They tell you more about the commenter than they ever can about your own work. They usually scream "Sneak the next one past this douche." Of course, the douche just reacted with his own conception of what good music is. Generally, I get 2 streams of criticism: too sad (for minors) and too sugary for the major... Either way 7th, 9th and sus chords are my corner of the room and how they are voiced make all the difference.

  • @McD said:

    @Daveypoo said:
    Hey man, ALL our emotions are running hot nowadays, so don't feel like you need to mince words. Again, just backing up my position. In years past I would've deferred to your opinion out of lack of interest in an argument. Nowadays I just don't give a fuck and back myself up, consequences be damned.

    I'm always willing to give anything a second listen and retract hasty assessment. Lumping 2 tracks into a single comment about the drums was careless.

    I'm sure @JanKun is also angry about the work vs the causal review. Been there and done that. I go back to my first posting often and have to rationalize that the first reaction of anyone is to point out what can be fixed and usually not much more except. "Looking forward to you talking my advice."

    But those comments have hung over ny relationship to this day. They tell you more about the commenter than they ever can about your own work. They usually scream "Sneak the next one past this douche." Of course, the douche just reacted with his own conception of what good music is. Generally, I get 2 streams of criticism: too sad (for minors) and too sugary for the major... Either way 7th, 9th and sus chords are my corner of the room and how they are voiced make all the difference.

    I mean, I can send you the chart I made for this if it'll make you feel better...

  • You make a beautiful treble clef @Daveypoo!

  • @McD

    Thanks for your honest feedback.
    Like @Daveypoo, I spent literally hours on the drums, listening carefully bar after bar and that is what I came up with. I am not a drummer and it shows. I have a strange way to work with acoustic drums, using multivelocity libraries (between 12 and 36 level of velocities each with 3 round robins). I created myself the sfz files for each libraries. Then use Auria's sampler and sequence the whole thing with both patterning 1 and 2. I tried all the acoustic drums options on the appstore, but to my ears, this is the most "realistic" sounding drum part I could produce. But this will never come close to a real drummer for sure.
    On a song like this, Using loop would sound more natural but would be too limiting. The loop would end up dictating the arrangement, which I believe is not what the song needs. Not saying it is per se a bad method though.

    The parts I am the most happy are the finger picked electric guitar (unfortunately its qualities cannot be fully heard cause the mix is kind of dense...) and the bass. The bass part was written according to the drum which itself was written according to Mike's Rhodes. Everything's correlated through my own prism.

    I am not a singer, never intended to be and will never consider myself as one. I sing mostly in tune, the grain of my voice is not too bad not to good either. That's fine with me. @LinearLineman wanted to hear my voice on his song, the range seemed to fit and i liked the lyrics. That is why I agreed to do it. That's it. If you find it not being expressive enough, well you might be right but I am fine with it. I am not Amy Whinehouse Billie Holiday or SRV. I don't intend to go through the shit those nice people have been through hoping to become a better singer. Life sucks enough, I don't need to add substance abuse to show the whole world my own misery.
    I think I managed to convey the lyricist's intention with the best of my abilities. Anyway, who cares about lyrics nowadays?

    I am not angry at all. Those 2 versions of Mike's song already disappeared in the flow of streaming. It doesn't matter. Hard work hardly get noticed. Everything is about quick consumption.
    Have you ever baked macaron ? It takes a whole day of hard work and end up eaten in seconds. Life is vanity. I accepted this long ago, so I have absolutely no reason to get angry at your comment. As long as I am still enjoying working passionately on music, forgetting about time and everyday's life shit, well the rest doesn't really matter.
    It is good to get comments though. Learn from them, and improve what I think I should or could. Once again thank you for your time.

  • @JanKun said:
    Thanks for your honest feedback.

    Great. Two strike outs with one post. I knew I should just put it away today.
    The drums seemed like a safe detail to mention. Please keep singing. Making good
    drum tracks for a real drummer is an impossible assignment. Playing drums on a track for another drummer is even worse. Then you own the drum tuning too and cymbal selection
    and the choices you make. I'd have spared a real drummer since I know everyone has there vision.

    Sorry. No one was helped. But you did get more listeners by spending more time on the front page. I always try to do that for the good stuff. I'll even go looking to see if anything slipped past without a single comment. It happens a lot. Most are here to fix apps problems and have limited time or interest in someone else's work. It usually just makes us feel like slackers. But we can still judge anything...

  • @flo26 said:
    I like both.
    Maybe too many drum breaks,but that’s only my taste😉.
    Bravo guys!
    Flo

    Merci Flo!

    Thank you for listening!

    JF

  • @JanKun said:

    @flo26 said:
    I like both.
    Maybe too many drum breaks,but that’s only my taste😉.
    Bravo guys!
    Flo

    Merci Flo!

    Thank you for listening!

    JF

    I like the way you sing that song.
    Relax and soulful.
    Cheers
    Flo

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