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Spidericemidas needs your help with Kronecker in AUM and other hosts

Hey all and @thesoundtestroom @reasOne @brice @craftycurate @echoopera @Tones4Christ @richardyot
I’ve just started working on a soundbank for IceGear’s Kronecker Synth, with the intention of sharing the finished bank eventually.
But I’ve just noticed something strange and unexpected happening to some of the patches once Kronecker is loaded into an AU host such as AUM and AB3, which I have never encountered before in any other synth I’ve used.
I always work on my patches with the synths in standalone mode, and when I eventually come to using them in AUM, all is well and the patches sound exactly as they did when originally programmed in standalone mode.
This is not the case with Kronecker, and I am totally stuck as to what is causing this and finding a solution.

I’ve included a link here to just one of the patches for Kronecker where this anomaly is seriously noticeable. If anyone here with Kronecker on their iPad fancies testing this out for me, or has any idea as to what is going on, it would be so appreciated. If I can’t find out what is going on and how to rectify it, the sounds are useless if they can only be played in standalone mode, and not worth releasing.

Once you get the patch (“Test9”) installed into your Kronecker, first just play the patch up and down the keyboard in standalone mode and familiarise yourself carefully with how it sounds and behaves. Then simply load Kronecker into AUM as an AU, re-select the patch from the library and play it in AUM either via AUM’s screen keyboard or external midi controller....What’s happened to the attack setting?! What’s happened to the envelope setting!? The patch behaves and sounds NOTHING like it should! Even adjusting the default AUM midi parameter (links itself to Emitter(A) filter) to the left of Kronecker in the slot, does not fix the problem. The patch is totally unrecognisable once loaded simply into AUM.

AB3 gives better results, closer-matched behaviour overall BUT I can still hear there is something very different as if a filter has been opened up more with a sharper attack sound.

What on Earth could be causing this? Am I missing something here? These patches will be useless if they don’t sound as they should once loaded into a host. My gut feeling is maybe it’s something to do with the way Kronecker’s Emitter works, as this is a very unique feature to Kronecker, and I have never ever encountered this strange behaviour in any other synth (and I make and test A LOT of presets in other synths!)

Does anyone know the IceGear tag here for reaching out to them about this technical query?

Any help or opinions very much appreciated! I need to understand and resolve this, otherwise there’s no point in continuing further with Kronecker. Cheers! 🤞😬🙏

Link to Kronecker test patch below:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/tu9jq5xxvepd832/Test9.kronecker_snd_pack?dl=0

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Comments

  • edited February 26

    Yeah it’s strange, same thing happened here. I opened the patch standalone and then the AU version was lot more muffled sounding, also when I got back to the standalone version, this had also changed to the AU sound. So I can’t seem to retrieve that sound again....

    There is an email address somewhere to send for support requests, I emailed once and did get a reply. :)

  • edited February 26

    @Spidericemidas Yup - the sound from the AUv3 is a lot more muffled in AUM, but sounds OK (i.e. same as standalone) in NS2.

    UPDATE: If I leave Kronecker loaded in AUM (i.e. don't force quit), then switch back to the standalone version of Kronecker, I get the muffled sound in the standalone. But if I force quit AUM (which has Kronecker loaded as AU) then load the standalone, I get the normal patch sound.

  • @Spidericemidas : per their website the email is support AT icegear DOT net

  • I’ve tried messing about with the outputs and velocity settings etc, but I can’t tell if there is a difference to be honest beyond the fact one is definitely louder.

    I tried some of my sounds and they have the same issue of relative volumes, but I’m unsure they are any different either.

    I’ve done it too many times now and not sure I’m not just thinking there is or is not something in it. Have others noticed a very distinct difference? What are you peeps testing through as I haven’t replaced my knackered headphones as yet, so very critical listening is out. Just used monitors and built in speakers.

    Maybe my ears are just crap lol

  • I’m getting a difference now by running up and down the keyboard. The stand-alone has more attack.

    Thing is, this is with one of my own sounds! So it’s not just your sound that has the issue

  • @Fruitbat1919 @espiegel123 @craftycurate @Carnbot Bless you guys for taking the time to try this out and confirming an issue.
    Since posting the thread, I’ve tried it in Cubasis2, dry, channel strip off, EQ off etc. I’m getting something a lot closer to the original sound, behaviour-wise, but still it is sounding markedly sharper as if a filter has been opened more compared to how it sounds in standalone mode. I too experienced weird things when switching from AUM to standalone whereby the original in standalone was then sounding wrong just as in AUM, and I had to close everything and reboot to get the original back again in standalone. I’m working in a pair of reasonable Sennheiser headphones as I always do for everything. So I am used to how they sound, and the listening conditions are exactly the same and consistent as they always are for me. I will try it also in NS2. I have noticed significant differences with a few of the other patches I’ve made so far in Kronecker, the biggest differences being when used in AUM, which is my preferred environment for using AUv3s. So it seems there’s something about AUM that is affecting Kronecker in the biggest way compared to Cubasis2, AB3 and NS2. I have never noticed this behaviour between standalone and in a host with any other synth at all, and my listening conditions are always exactly the same. I also have a very good ear for frequencies and sound make-up in general, so this is driving me crazy. Lol. Thank you for the IceGear email address. I will link them to this thread.

    Many thanks to you all so far for the replies. Much appreciated.

    Bit puzzling and disappointing really as I like Kronecker and wanted to have a go at seeing what I could get out of it. But it’s no good if I can’t host it in anything for actually using the sounds in a track. 🤔

  • just woke to and i’m going to check this out

  • Both versions sound if not identical then very close to me. Air 2, latest OS. Perhaps the dreaded sample-rate shenanigans again?

  • @Spidericemidas said:
    I have never noticed this behaviour between standalone and in a host with any other synth at all, and my listening conditions are always exactly the same. I also have a very good ear for frequencies and sound make-up in general, so this is driving me crazy.

    I can't say I have either, but I'll be on the lookout now. Tbh I rarely use synths in standalone, except for sound design sometimes.

    The only thing that might be vaguely relevant ... a number of times I've reopened Factory patches and have been a little surprised at how they sounded - but this may be entirely unrelated.

  • i couldn’t really hear a difference, at least using the internal ipad speakers. i’ve very unfamiliar with kronecker and don’t know my way around the thing but it seemed as if the adsr was set different in each version... could have been looking in the wrong emmiter tho 🤷🏻‍♂️ lol that synth feels like a rebellious teenager for me. i’m going to test from my iphone this eve to see how that goes

  • @Philandering_Bastard said:
    Both versions sound if not identical then very close to me. Air 2, latest OS. Perhaps the dreaded sample-rate shenanigans again?

    That’s interesting! I’m using a 2016 iPad Pro. Don’t know if that makes any difference. What I think I should do is make a quick short recording of this patch being played from Kronecker in AUM, and another recording of the same patch being played from Kronecker in Cubasis2. Both recordings would be completely ‘dry’. Only the sound coming from Kronecker in both cases i.e. turning off any default channel strip and EQ in Cubasis that might otherwise influence the sound. Then I could copy and stitch those recordings back to back as one wav file in Cubasis so it’s easy for you guys to hear an A-B compare sort of thing.

  • @Philandering_Bastard said:
    Both versions sound if not identical then very close to me. Air 2, latest OS. Perhaps the dreaded sample-rate shenanigans again?

    I’m Air 2 latest iOS and I got the same feeling until I played the keys differently. I found it more obvious with one of my own sounds though. I was unsure to start with though until I got the levels as close as can be. I only get a more definite difference when running my fingers down the keyboard quickly.

    I’m using 16 bit 44, so shouldn’t be any issues with that. I thought to start with it might be some velocity settings issue, but I can’t seem to change any settings that would express such a change if the incoming velocities were different from each keyboard.

    Whatever it is, it is very subtle on my system. Would be interesting to know if it’s more of an intense effect on different systems?

  • @Fruitbat1919 said:

    @Philandering_Bastard said:
    Both versions sound if not identical then very close to me. Air 2, latest OS. Perhaps the dreaded sample-rate shenanigans again?

    I’m Air 2 latest iOS and I got the same feeling until I played the keys differently. I found it more obvious with one of my own sounds though. I was unsure to start with though until I got the levels as close as can be. I only get a more definite difference when running my fingers down the keyboard quickly.

    I’m using 16 bit 44, so shouldn’t be any issues with that. I thought to start with it might be some velocity settings issue, but I can’t seem to change any settings that would express such a change if the incoming velocities were different from each keyboard.

    Whatever it is, it is very subtle on my system. Would be interesting to know if it’s more of an intense effect on different systems?

    I will create an A-B recording comparison and post here shortly. The difference on my iPad is unbelievable. 😢

  • @reasOne said:
    i couldn’t really hear a difference, at least using the internal ipad speakers. i’ve very unfamiliar with kronecker and don’t know my way around the thing but it seemed as if the adsr was set different in each version... could have been looking in the wrong emmiter tho 🤷🏻‍♂️ lol that synth feels like a rebellious teenager for me. i’m going to test from my iphone this eve to see how that goes

    Check in here later for an upload of an A-B recording for comparison between AUM and Cubasis2. The difference will be so obvious then. 😉

  • @Spidericemidas said:

    @Fruitbat1919 said:

    @Philandering_Bastard said:
    Both versions sound if not identical then very close to me. Air 2, latest OS. Perhaps the dreaded sample-rate shenanigans again?

    I’m Air 2 latest iOS and I got the same feeling until I played the keys differently. I found it more obvious with one of my own sounds though. I was unsure to start with though until I got the levels as close as can be. I only get a more definite difference when running my fingers down the keyboard quickly.

    I’m using 16 bit 44, so shouldn’t be any issues with that. I thought to start with it might be some velocity settings issue, but I can’t seem to change any settings that would express such a change if the incoming velocities were different from each keyboard.

    Whatever it is, it is very subtle on my system. Would be interesting to know if it’s more of an intense effect on different systems?

    I will create an A-B recording comparison and post here shortly. The difference on my iPad is unbelievable. 😢

    Very subtle here through the inbuilt speakers, which I am now testing on as wife gone to bed. Have you tried different ways of listening: iPad speakers, monitors, headphones, etc. Because if You getting little to nothing through the iPad speakers and lots of difference through an external sound device via lightning etc, it may help them work out what’s wrong?

  • @craftycurate said:

    @Spidericemidas said:
    I have never noticed this behaviour between standalone and in a host with any other synth at all, and my listening conditions are always exactly the same. I also have a very good ear for frequencies and sound make-up in general, so this is driving me crazy.

    I can't say I have either, but I'll be on the lookout now. Tbh I rarely use synths in standalone, except for sound design sometimes.

    The only thing that might be vaguely relevant ... a number of times I've reopened Factory patches and have been a little surprised at how they sounded - but this may be entirely unrelated.

    Yeah I always work in standalone mode when designing patches as there’s no reason for me to be plugged into anything else just for sound design when seeing what I can get out of only the synth itself. Saves battery time too. Then afterwards I plug into AUM and try out with different reverbs and other fx just to see how they sound. I would not expect there to be any humanly noticeable difference between a patch from standalone and the same patch from a host. And so far this has never happened before. A very curious thing.
    I will upload an A-B comparison audio recording from AUM and Cubasis2 so you guys can really hear what I’m hearing at this end.

  • @Fruitbat1919 said:

    @Spidericemidas said:

    @Fruitbat1919 said:

    @Philandering_Bastard said:
    Both versions sound if not identical then very close to me. Air 2, latest OS. Perhaps the dreaded sample-rate shenanigans again?

    I’m Air 2 latest iOS and I got the same feeling until I played the keys differently. I found it more obvious with one of my own sounds though. I was unsure to start with though until I got the levels as close as can be. I only get a more definite difference when running my fingers down the keyboard quickly.

    I’m using 16 bit 44, so shouldn’t be any issues with that. I thought to start with it might be some velocity settings issue, but I can’t seem to change any settings that would express such a change if the incoming velocities were different from each keyboard.

    Whatever it is, it is very subtle on my system. Would be interesting to know if it’s more of an intense effect on different systems?

    I will create an A-B recording comparison and post here shortly. The difference on my iPad is unbelievable. 😢

    Very subtle here through the inbuilt speakers, which I am now testing on as wife gone to bed. Have you tried different ways of listening: iPad speakers, monitors, headphones, etc. Because if You getting little to nothing through the iPad speakers and lots of difference through an external sound device via lightning etc, it may help them work out what’s wrong?

    I only ever work in a pair of the same Sennheiser headphones for absolutely everything I do every day on the iPad. So my listening conditions and equipment are not changing. It should sound the same in standalone as in AUM or Cubasis2 as in every other synth I have does. But this difference is staggering. I will upload audio recording of AUM and Cubasis2 to show what’s happening here.

  • @Spidericemidas said:

    @Fruitbat1919 said:

    @Spidericemidas said:

    @Fruitbat1919 said:

    @Philandering_Bastard said:
    Both versions sound if not identical then very close to me. Air 2, latest OS. Perhaps the dreaded sample-rate shenanigans again?

    I’m Air 2 latest iOS and I got the same feeling until I played the keys differently. I found it more obvious with one of my own sounds though. I was unsure to start with though until I got the levels as close as can be. I only get a more definite difference when running my fingers down the keyboard quickly.

    I’m using 16 bit 44, so shouldn’t be any issues with that. I thought to start with it might be some velocity settings issue, but I can’t seem to change any settings that would express such a change if the incoming velocities were different from each keyboard.

    Whatever it is, it is very subtle on my system. Would be interesting to know if it’s more of an intense effect on different systems?

    I will create an A-B recording comparison and post here shortly. The difference on my iPad is unbelievable. 😢

    Very subtle here through the inbuilt speakers, which I am now testing on as wife gone to bed. Have you tried different ways of listening: iPad speakers, monitors, headphones, etc. Because if You getting little to nothing through the iPad speakers and lots of difference through an external sound device via lightning etc, it may help them work out what’s wrong?

    I only ever work in a pair of the same Sennheiser headphones for absolutely everything I do every day on the iPad. So my listening conditions and equipment are not changing. It should sound the same in standalone as in AUM or Cubasis2 as in every other synth I have does. But this difference is staggering. I will upload audio recording of AUM and Cubasis2 to show what’s happening here.

    That’s what I’m saying though. You are using the same setup with a noticeable difference. I am obviously using a different set up. We’ve established that myself and at least one other person is not having such a noticeable difference on Air 2 latest iOS. Maybe there is some differences in how we are getting different results that may help us or the devs discover what the issue is. At least narrowing down differences helps us present some information to the devs.

  • @Fruitbat1919 said:

    @Spidericemidas said:

    @Fruitbat1919 said:

    @Spidericemidas said:

    @Fruitbat1919 said:

    @Philandering_Bastard said:
    Both versions sound if not identical then very close to me. Air 2, latest OS. Perhaps the dreaded sample-rate shenanigans again?

    I’m Air 2 latest iOS and I got the same feeling until I played the keys differently. I found it more obvious with one of my own sounds though. I was unsure to start with though until I got the levels as close as can be. I only get a more definite difference when running my fingers down the keyboard quickly.

    I’m using 16 bit 44, so shouldn’t be any issues with that. I thought to start with it might be some velocity settings issue, but I can’t seem to change any settings that would express such a change if the incoming velocities were different from each keyboard.

    Whatever it is, it is very subtle on my system. Would be interesting to know if it’s more of an intense effect on different systems?

    I will create an A-B recording comparison and post here shortly. The difference on my iPad is unbelievable. 😢

    Very subtle here through the inbuilt speakers, which I am now testing on as wife gone to bed. Have you tried different ways of listening: iPad speakers, monitors, headphones, etc. Because if You getting little to nothing through the iPad speakers and lots of difference through an external sound device via lightning etc, it may help them work out what’s wrong?

    I only ever work in a pair of the same Sennheiser headphones for absolutely everything I do every day on the iPad. So my listening conditions and equipment are not changing. It should sound the same in standalone as in AUM or Cubasis2 as in every other synth I have does. But this difference is staggering. I will upload audio recording of AUM and Cubasis2 to show what’s happening here.

    That’s what I’m saying though. You are using the same setup with a noticeable difference. I am obviously using a different set up. We’ve established that myself and at least one other person is not having such a noticeable difference on Air 2 latest iOS. Maybe there is some differences in how we are getting different results that may help us or the devs discover what the issue is. At least narrowing down differences helps us present some information to the devs.

    My suggestion is each of us testing at least list certain information:
    Device testing on (iPad model)
    iOS version used.
    Device listening on (speakers, headphones etc and how connected).
    Hosts used for test and any relevant settings.

  • edited February 27

    The difference is very clear to me, like different patches. I’m on pro 12.9 2017. Plus listening on studio monitors.
    Yeah hope this gets fixed, would love a Spidericemidas Kronecker bank :)
    Tested on AUM. The patch sounds fine in NS2 though.

  • @Carnbot said:
    The difference is very clear to me, like different patches. I’m on pro 12.9 2017. Plus listening on studio monitors.
    Yeah hope this gets fixed, would love a Spidericemidas Kronecker bank :)

    Are your monitors connected to a headphone input or lightning port, or USB port to sound device or headphone adaptor to usb port?

    I have only inbuilt speakers and headphone socket direct to speakers tested on Air2 latest iOS and the differences are very minor, but are still perceivable, especially if playing down the keyboard quickly.

  • @Spidericemidas said:

    @Philandering_Bastard said:
    Both versions sound if not identical then very close to me. Air 2, latest OS. Perhaps the dreaded sample-rate shenanigans again?

    That’s interesting! I’m using a 2016 iPad Pro. Don’t know if that makes any difference. What I think I should do is make a quick short recording of this patch being played from Kronecker in AUM, and another recording of the same patch being played from Kronecker in Cubasis2. Both recordings would be completely ‘dry’. Only the sound coming from Kronecker in both cases i.e. turning off any default channel strip and EQ in Cubasis that might otherwise influence the sound. Then I could copy and stitch those recordings back to back as one wav file in Cubasis so it’s easy for you guys to hear an A-B compare sort of thing.

    That would be interesting. I am listening on some okayish Bluetooth cans. Will try to get a hold of my K701s but the wife thinks they’re hers now 😫

  • @Fruitbat1919 said:

    @Carnbot said:
    The difference is very clear to me, like different patches. I’m on pro 12.9 2017. Plus listening on studio monitors.
    Yeah hope this gets fixed, would love a Spidericemidas Kronecker bank :)

    Are your monitors connected to a headphone input or lightning port, or USB port to sound device or headphone adaptor to usb port?

    I have only inbuilt speakers and headphone socket direct to speakers tested on Air2 latest iOS and the differences are very minor, but are still perceivable, especially if playing down the keyboard quickly.

    I'm on an iconnectaudio4+ to studio monitors via lightning

  • @Philandering_Bastard @Fruitbat1919 @Carnbot @craftycurate

    Here’s a link to a short audio recording. One made in AUM. The other made in Cubasis2. For an A-B comparison. The first muffled sound is in AUM. The second sharper sound with attack is in Cubasis2. Both recordings completely dry, only sound coming from Kronecker. Channel strip and EQ bypassed in Cubasis2 so as not to influence the sound. You wouldn’t believe these two short sequences are the same patch! 😲

    The second part of the recording, from Cubasis2, sounds closer to what I hear in standalone and is how I designed the sound to be...plucky and snappy. The first part of the recording is from AUM and sounds absolutely nothing like the behaviour of the same patch in Cubasis2. It’s lost all its attack and snappiness and sounds muffled and soft. A completely different patch. This A-B comparison is pretty crazy! 🤔

    Thanks for all your thoughts and ideas on this, guys! Much appreciated!

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/3a80skyam2v0qin/ - Kronecker AB compare (1).wav?dl=0

  • Here’s my setup and results:
    Air 2 latest iOS.
    Built in speakers and monitors connected to headphone port tested. Unable to test lightning port at current time.

    Sound supplied and own sounds tested. iPad rebooted and no other apps open.

    Sounds with a more perceivable attack (piano like sounds) have a slight dulling of the attack, as if a setting is being triggered to less of a degree when going through AUM.
    I can only make the difference more noticeable by playing the keys quicker.
    I have tried to level the perceived volumes of both setups and test different velocity settings for the AUM keyboard.

    AUM settings: 44.1 256, inbuilt keyboard

    The sound difference was more noticeable on one of my own sounds than the supplied sound, again, only when the keys were played quickly.

    To try:

    Will try switching off all velocity settings in the app.
    Will try a different keyboard.

  • edited February 27

    Probably something samplerate-related. Try it with NS2: by playing and exporting. If the exported version sounds very different then the AU has some things hardcoded which should be variable (such as filter sample frequencies, etc).

  • I d> @Fruitbat1919 said:

    Here’s my setup and results:
    Air 2 latest iOS.
    Built in speakers and monitors connected to headphone port tested. Unable to test lightning port at current time.

    Sound supplied and own sounds tested. iPad rebooted and no other apps open.

    Sounds with a more perceivable attack (piano like sounds) have a slight dulling of the attack, as if a setting is being triggered to less of a degree when going through AUM.
    I can only make the difference more noticeable by playing the keys quicker.
    I have tried to level the perceived volumes of both setups and test different velocity settings for the AUM keyboard.

    AUM settings: 44.1 256, inbuilt keyboard

    The sound difference was more noticeable on one of my own sounds than the supplied sound, again, only when the keys were played quickly.

    To try:

    Will try switching off all velocity settings in the app.
    Will try a different keyboard.

    I did consider velocity settings in Kronecker might be leading to variation somewhere, so I checked the patch and all velocity routings are off.

  • @Spidericemidas said:
    I d> @Fruitbat1919 said:

    Here’s my setup and results:
    Air 2 latest iOS.
    Built in speakers and monitors connected to headphone port tested. Unable to test lightning port at current time.

    Sound supplied and own sounds tested. iPad rebooted and no other apps open.

    Sounds with a more perceivable attack (piano like sounds) have a slight dulling of the attack, as if a setting is being triggered to less of a degree when going through AUM.
    I can only make the difference more noticeable by playing the keys quicker.
    I have tried to level the perceived volumes of both setups and test different velocity settings for the AUM keyboard.

    AUM settings: 44.1 256, inbuilt keyboard

    The sound difference was more noticeable on one of my own sounds than the supplied sound, again, only when the keys were played quickly.

    To try:

    Will try switching off all velocity settings in the app.
    Will try a different keyboard.

    I did consider velocity settings in Kronecker might be leading to variation somewhere, so I checked the patch and all velocity routings are off.

    Yep just a wild guess really because of the difference I’m hearing. But as I’ve not been able to listen to your recording yet and the wife is giving me the shut that thing up stare, I’m going have to back out till tomorrow. The IceGear apps seem to get quite regular updates though, so I’m sure once reported they will get it sorted as soon as they can suss it.

    Have fun making them when it’s sorted though. Will listen to your recording tomorrow :)

  • @brambos said:
    Probably something samplerate-related. Try it with NS2: by playing and exporting. If the exported version sounds very different then the AU has some things hardcoded which should be variable (such as filter sample frequencies, etc).

    Hey, thanks for dropping in. With Kronecker loaded into Cubasis2 on a totally dry channel, I get a sound which is very close to the standalone sound, played live and mixed down. So different from the sound in a dry channel in AUM. I will also try it in NS2. Cheers.

  • Kronecker is a pretty weird synth ... particles driving emitters, resonators, FM synths popping up in odd places - all with filters in them and the like.

    I've found a few resonator and string modelling synths to be highly variable when it comes to presets ... often don't "play true" from one session to the next to my ear... play back a bit dead and flat. The Karplus-Strong string synthesis models work on a filtered delay line which could point to where the gremlins are too - filters all over the place .

    There's a lot of odd stuff going on in these Icegear gadgets under the hood - deceptively normal ...

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