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call for beta testers for a guitar amp sim AU3 plugin

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Comments

  • @TimRussell said:

    @Blue_Mangoo said:

    @Liquidmantis said:

    @Blue_Mangoo said:

    The reason for having an effects loop in an amp, as I understand it, is because you want to put some of your effects after the distortion stage (i.e. after the preamp). I believe that if it were possible to put effects after the output of the amp, people would do that but since the output power is too high for effects pedals to handle, the effects loop was created as a work-around. In the case of a software amp, there is no problem with putting the effects after the amp so there is no need for an effects loop. One might ask if it would make sense to put effects before the speaker cabinet, but in almost all cases it would make no difference whether the cabinet came before of after the post-distortion effects. The reason the order doesn’t matter is because the cab IR is a linear effect, meaning that it affects EQ and time-smearing but it doesn’t saturate or drive the signal. For linear effects like reverb, delay, and IR’s of all kinds, changing the order around has no effect on tone.

    Okay, cool. That makes sense to me. I haven't given this many mental cycles, but it jives with something I was recently trying out. I have the Helix Native AU on desktop, and was feeding that into Valhalla Shimmer, but started wondering if it made sense to "shimmer" the cab, like a guitar in space, or if the shimmer should be before the speaker and mic. I did some quick testing of recreating an effects loop by running two instances and disabling various parts to recreate a separate pre-amp and power amp with the shimmer in the middle but I didn't notice an immediate difference. Although to be fair I should re-attempt that because it was late and I rushed through it, so now I'm doubting if I did it correctly.

    [Edit] Actually, intuitively it seems like this would be different. In cases like this, where the effect is adding sonic content, like say the octave up pitch shifting, by having it in front of the cabinet you'd get the normal roll-off from the limits of the guitar speaker and cab. But having it after the shimmer effect is unfiltered.

    Yes, for a shimmer effect, the order does matter. Effects that can be swapped without affecting the tone are EQ, reverb (but not shimmer), delay, and IR convolution. Most everything else is order dependent (compression, distortion, chorus, flanger, phaser, pitch shift).

    However, I can’t think of a situation where putting an effect plugin before the speaker cab would allow you to get a sound that you cant get by putting it after. The difference is usually not very noticeable and even when it is noticeable you could usually compensate by adjusting the EQ

    Sorry but that’s not the case. Having delay before reverb (and also IR) can yield a very different sound to delay after. The position of EQ definitely does matter too - putting an EQ before an overdrive/fuzz can sound very different to putting it after.

    Yes you are right. This is what I was intending to say but perhaps I made it too complicated. There is a signal processing theorem that states this in a clearer way: you can swap the order of any effects in the chain that are linear & time-invariant (abbreviated by the letters LTI) but for effects that are non-linear or time-varying, the order must be preserved.

    So this does not mean that you can put LTI effects like EQ and cab IR anywhere in the signal chain. It means that you can scramble the order of any LTI effects that are in a contiguous group. For example, if you have EQ1=>Distortion=>EQ2=>CabIR then You can swap CabIR with EQ2 because they are both LTI effects but you can not swap EQ2 with EQ1 because there is a nonlinear effect (distortion) between them.

  • edited January 2020

    @Blue_Mangoo
    Currently the output volume control is the second-to-last thing. Only the peak limiter comes after it. So if you aren’t peaking out then the output gain IS the last step in the signal path.I want to keep it in that order so that you can push the volume higher without clipping.

    yeah, it is good like it is now, it makes sense like this :+1:

  • @dendy said:

    @Blue_Mangoo said:

    @dendy said:
    @Blue_Mangoo Wow it sounds really amazing. I'm not gutarist so i'm checking it with drums and bass / leads - and -i'm amazed. Huge sound.

    Appreciate layout if UI, it is useable in NS2 also in small "rectangle" view :)

    Maybe in terms of CPU optimalisation it would be nice if instance which is not processing anything at the moment would suspend down processing just on inevitable minimum - now, based on CPU meter, it looks it is eating same amount of CPU even when it is not processing any sound at the moment .. This makes sense in case of multiple instances used in project, where not all are playing in same moment ...

    Yes, the CPU usage is a serious weakness of this plugin. I spent months to shave off a few percent CPU and it’s still hogging more than I would like it to. At this point I’m afraid there might not be any way to significantly improve that situation because the main thing that is eating up cpu cycles is also the main thing that makes it sound good. There is one thing you could do to improve it though: I don’t think 16x oversampling is really necessary for most of the amp types, and thats especially true for clean amp types. Taking it down to 4x reduces the CPU load a bit.

    Hm, so it is not possible to stop processing if incomimg audio is none, and just activate it again when plugin receives some audio from host ?

    I won’t say impossible, but it seems problematic.

    If the input were zero or near zero for a long time, we could detect that and put it to sleep on a low power mode. The problem is that it looks like when you mute a track in AUM, it mutes the output, not the input. Unfortunately I have no idea how to make the plugin aware of when the channel output is muted.

  • Cool, glad the beta’s open. I’m interested to A/B this vs. the Strymon Iridium once I get settled in later.

  • So far i really like what i’m hearing but also havent tried it with a real guitar. I’m using with AudioLayer exs24 Stratocaster samples and applying after effects like chorus, delay and reverb. Sounds nice!

  • @Blue_Mangoo said:

    @espiegel123 said:
    @Blue_Mangoo : it seems like like Gain Stage needs an output volume knob that is post-everything and has no effect on tone. I am finding that with some combinations of settings that give me a nice tone the output is too hot for the post-EQ or IR that I feed the signal too and requiring me to stick AUM's gain control after it.

    Since adjusting the current input/output gain settings a simple output level control would be useful. It will make level matching when switching presets much more friendly.

    Currently the output volume control is the second-to-last thing. Only the peak limiter comes after it. So if you aren’t peaking out then the output gain IS the last step in the signal path.

    I want to keep it in that order so that you can push the volume higher without clipping. If you need a post-limiter volume control, using the gain control in AUM is a good way to do it. We will have more options when we make a standalone fx rig but for this plugin I want to rely on the host app to do those utility things

    Question: does the output gain influence the tone shaping or is it a simple output volume control?

    If it is the latter then maybe it needs some more range on the lower end. With some of the settings that I have tried, cranking the output gain all the way down has a smaller level drop than I'd expect.

  • @Blue_Mangoo said:

    @dendy said:
    @Blue_Mangoo Wow it sounds really amazing. I'm not gutarist so i'm checking it with drums and bass / leads - and -i'm amazed. Huge sound.

    Appreciate layout if UI, it is useable in NS2 also in small "rectangle" view :)

    Maybe in terms of CPU optimalisation it would be nice if instance which is not processing anything at the moment would suspend down processing just on inevitable minimum - now, based on CPU meter, it looks it is eating same amount of CPU even when it is not processing any sound at the moment .. This makes sense in case of multiple instances used in project, where not all are playing in same moment ...

    Yes, the CPU usage is a serious weakness of this plugin. I spent months to shave off a few percent CPU and it’s still hogging more than I would like it to. At this point I’m afraid there might not be any way to significantly improve that situation because the main thing that is eating up cpu cycles is also the main thing that makes it sound good. There is one thing you could do to improve it though: I don’t think 16x oversampling is really necessary for most of the amp types, and thats especially true for clean amp types. Taking it down to 4x reduces the CPU load a bit.

    FWIW, I don't mind the CPU load at all for this (iPad 6th Gen).

  • edited January 2020

    @espiegel123 said:
    Question: does the output gain influence the tone shaping or is it a simple output volume control?

    If it is the latter then maybe it needs some more range on the lower end. With some of the settings that I have tried, cranking the output gain all the way down has a smaller level drop than I'd expect.

    Given that it's the penultimate component in the signal chain (with only the peak limiter following it), it won't shape tone at all. If you're using AUM, you could add a gain control to further drop the channel output.

  • @espiegel123 said:

    @Blue_Mangoo said:

    @dendy said:
    @Blue_Mangoo Wow it sounds really amazing. I'm not gutarist so i'm checking it with drums and bass / leads - and -i'm amazed. Huge sound.

    Appreciate layout if UI, it is useable in NS2 also in small "rectangle" view :)

    Maybe in terms of CPU optimalisation it would be nice if instance which is not processing anything at the moment would suspend down processing just on inevitable minimum - now, based on CPU meter, it looks it is eating same amount of CPU even when it is not processing any sound at the moment .. This makes sense in case of multiple instances used in project, where not all are playing in same moment ...

    Yes, the CPU usage is a serious weakness of this plugin. I spent months to shave off a few percent CPU and it’s still hogging more than I would like it to. At this point I’m afraid there might not be any way to significantly improve that situation because the main thing that is eating up cpu cycles is also the main thing that makes it sound good. There is one thing you could do to improve it though: I don’t think 16x oversampling is really necessary for most of the amp types, and thats especially true for clean amp types. Taking it down to 4x reduces the CPU load a bit.

    FWIW, I don't mind the CPU load at all for this (iPad 6th Gen).

    My first tests of it on an iPad Mini 2 inside AUM with buffer size set to 256 shows an acceptable performance I would say.

  • @espiegel123 said:
    FWIW, I don't mind the CPU load at all for this (iPad 6th Gen).

    Me too. Some CPU usage is OK when you can hear the results and get god response time.
    Now running 2-3 copies will be an issue but that's another class of problem.

    People think AUv3 means I can run as many copies as the iPad will support so I bought a newer iPad and I get crackles... ya-da, ya-da, ya-da. Music apps are single thread so extra cores won't help... more RAM won't help in any cases for a single AUv3.

    Sometimes I want an AUv3 that spawns baby AUv3's (changing the name, etc) on demand but Apple might not let it out into the wild. Still... it might benefit from more RAM at least and cores. Not sure.

  • @Blue_Mangoo said:
    Well... people ask for a lot of crazy things and every customer believes that his personal needs represent the needs of the community at large. My job is to figure out if they really are representing a large number of other users or not. Of course, I can always add an A/B switch and just say we're stopping there regardless of what anyone says.

    How important is it for you personally to have the ability to copy settings between A and B?

    How important it is that both the A and the B get saved by the host app when you save a preset? I'm concerned about doubling the number of audio unit parameters because another dev is writing the audio unit parameter code and there were many bugs in it before we released the beta. I am afraid that doubling the number of parameters means doubling the number of bugs.

    Thinking about it, there are a few ways to address the need that channel switching serves (more below after my responses to your questions).

    @Blue_Mangoo said: "people ask for a lot of crazy things".

    Sure. But that isn't a reason to not implement critical features. I sympathize with you as I spent a lot of years figuring out what user feedback was important. It is true that no matter what decisions you make there will be some people that scream about what they didn't get. In this case, there is a reason why A/B channel switching is more-or-less standard. And I think the vast majority of players wouldn't need anything more.

    @Blue_Mangoo asked:

    How important is it for you personally to have the ability to copy settings between A and B?

    Not at all. There are few enough settings that redialing them wouldn't bother me -- if not having copying makes it possible to have channel switching. (Again, to be clear, the switching could acceptably be limited to settings within the same amp "model").

    @Blue_Mangoo asked:

    How important it is that both the A and the B get saved by the host app when you save a preset?

    Essential. One amp 'setup' (preset) needs to save the states that you switch between. Without both states being part of the preset, the feature isn't useful. The whole point is that once you've got your amp set so that you have the lead and rhythm channels or A and B channels set up, you want that to be your preset so that when you get to the gig and connect your iPad and MIDI footswitch and load up your amp preset, you are all set and don't need to fiddle with the dials.

    Some other thoughts. While personally, I think the path of least resistance (since it just means duplication of existing functionality and giving it a u.s.) is to have each preset have a full complement or A and B settings and an A/B switch control there is another way of addressing the same need.

    The main need is with whatever amp setup you have that you have a simple way that applies to all your presets to switch between what is sometimes called Lead and Rhythm settings or between regular and solo or boosted and unboosted. The key thing is that there is a one button way when it is solo time to get your boosted tone. As I said, I think the easiest way is just having two states of the full amp you could switch between.

    For all solutions, there is a simple toggle that will switch between the states and back.

    If replicating all the controls for A and B isn't an acceptable solution, there are a few other approaches that serve the same need:

    • Boost control -- this requires some more engineering but you could have a set of boost controls and a boost on/off switch. The boost controls would be along the lines of saturation, volume, and "presence" amount. Simpler u.i. but trickier because you have to think through what those would mean.
    • A/B only replicates some settings. This is the way that some hardware amps deal with it since they can't really have two identical channels without adding cost. In this case you could probably have Input Gain A, Input Gain B, Output Gain A and Output Gain B and maybe a mid/presence that kicks in when you switch to the B setting.

    In any case, the key thing is that the A/B switch makes it possible to have the amount of saturation/distortion change (or not) and the volume. The mid/presence boost is nice in that it lets you cut through without necessarily having the volume go way up.

  • @kgmessier said:

    @espiegel123 said:
    Question: does the output gain influence the tone shaping or is it a simple output volume control?

    If it is the latter then maybe it needs some more range on the lower end. With some of the settings that I have tried, cranking the output gain all the way down has a smaller level drop than I'd expect.

    Given that it's the penultimate component in the signal chain (with only the peak limiter following it), it won't shape tone at all. If you're using AUM, you could add a gain control to further drop the channel output.

    That's true if it is just a gain control.

  • @espiegel123 said:

    @Blue_Mangoo said:

    @espiegel123 said:
    @Blue_Mangoo : it seems like like Gain Stage needs an output volume knob that is post-everything and has no effect on tone. I am finding that with some combinations of settings that give me a nice tone the output is too hot for the post-EQ or IR that I feed the signal too and requiring me to stick AUM's gain control after it.

    Since adjusting the current input/output gain settings a simple output level control would be useful. It will make level matching when switching presets much more friendly.

    Currently the output volume control is the second-to-last thing. Only the peak limiter comes after it. So if you aren’t peaking out then the output gain IS the last step in the signal path.

    I want to keep it in that order so that you can push the volume higher without clipping. If you need a post-limiter volume control, using the gain control in AUM is a good way to do it. We will have more options when we make a standalone fx rig but for this plugin I want to rely on the host app to do those utility things

    Question: does the output gain influence the tone shaping or is it a simple output volume control?

    If it is the latter then maybe it needs some more range on the lower end. With some of the settings that I have tried, cranking the output gain all the way down has a smaller level drop than I'd expect.

    It’s just a basic level control. Not tied to tone shaping at all. I’ll increase the range from +-15 dB to +-20 db.

  • @Blue_Mangoo said:

    @espiegel123 said:

    @Blue_Mangoo said:

    @espiegel123 said:
    @Blue_Mangoo : it seems like like Gain Stage needs an output volume knob that is post-everything and has no effect on tone. I am finding that with some combinations of settings that give me a nice tone the output is too hot for the post-EQ or IR that I feed the signal too and requiring me to stick AUM's gain control after it.

    Since adjusting the current input/output gain settings a simple output level control would be useful. It will make level matching when switching presets much more friendly.

    Currently the output volume control is the second-to-last thing. Only the peak limiter comes after it. So if you aren’t peaking out then the output gain IS the last step in the signal path.

    I want to keep it in that order so that you can push the volume higher without clipping. If you need a post-limiter volume control, using the gain control in AUM is a good way to do it. We will have more options when we make a standalone fx rig but for this plugin I want to rely on the host app to do those utility things

    Question: does the output gain influence the tone shaping or is it a simple output volume control?

    If it is the latter then maybe it needs some more range on the lower end. With some of the settings that I have tried, cranking the output gain all the way down has a smaller level drop than I'd expect.

    It’s just a basic level control. Not tied to tone shaping at all. I’ll increase the range from +-15 dB to +-20 db.

    Ok. Great!

  • @hisdudeness said:
    All without pick .. just to check the responsiveness

    Keep 'em coming if you have the cycles. Using drop box makes them end up in my iTunes
    folder which is good when the audio has something worth keeping these are good for my
    guitar efforts. Still learning to play decent rhythm. Do you do any Funk stuff?

    @Blue_Mangoo: can you add an auto tuning feature so beginners can play in tune? Just kidding. Trade offs. In tune or pure tone. Low latency or in tune. How about a swing button for that Dire Straights tune? "The Sultans of Schwing". MIDI out? MPE out? MIDI 2 support?

    Keep coding.

  • wimwim
    edited January 2020

    I get the desire for a two channel setup, but honestly, I virtually always just use a stomp box of some kind in front of the amp for the boosted or lead tone. I'm perfectly fine with that approach vs. switching between A and B setups.

    A Blamsoft TS9 or two with the gain turned down (or not) and the volume turned up, or a compressor with extra makeup gain, in front of the amp is all I need.

  • edited January 2020

    Can I request a built in tuner??

    I think there is currently only one AU tuner - 4pockets ‘analyser and tuner’. Never checked it out so don’t know how good it is.

  • @TimRussell said:
    Can I request a built in tuner?
    This would be awesome.

    Yeh, that would be nice. There aren't many good AUv3 options for this.

  • @TimRussell said:
    Can I request a built in tuner??

    I think there is currently only one AU tuner - 4pockets ‘analyser and tuner’. Never checked it out so don’t know how good it is.

    We made a tuner app called Helix Tuner. I love it and I use it every day but it didn’t sell well so we stopped developing it. I think the problem is there are too many tuner apps on the app store. I am interested in porting Helix tuner to AU3 but if the plugin sells as badly as the app, we will loose money on that project.

  • @McD said:

    @hisdudeness said:
    All without pick .. just to check the responsiveness

    Keep 'em coming if you have the cycles. Using drop box makes them end up in my iTunes

    This is with pick and sweet humbuckers preset

    You reminded me funk drummer lies somewhere with me

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/wrcfm38hjg1xrfu/Gainstage clip 6 with dub delay.wav?dl=0

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/t6ml62hkjvnu9hx/Gainstage clip 7 sort of funk grooves .wav?dl=0

  • @Blue_Mangoo said:

    @TimRussell said:
    Can I request a built in tuner??

    I think there is currently only one AU tuner - 4pockets ‘analyser and tuner’. Never checked it out so don’t know how good it is.

    We made a tuner app called Helix Tuner. I love it and I use it every day but it didn’t sell well so we stopped developing it. I think the problem is there are too many tuner apps on the app store. I am interested in porting Helix tuner to AU3 but if the plugin sells as badly as the app, we will loose money on that project.

    Having it baked into the app, or as an IAP, would be quite a selling point IMO

  • @Blue_Mangoo
    the input were zero or near zero for a long time, we could detect that and put it to sleep on a low power mode. The problem is that it looks like when you mute a track in AUM, it mutes the output, not the input. Unfortunately I have no idea how to make the plugin aware of when the channel output is muted.

    Forget AUM for a moment... think about usual DAW.. during project playback.. different tracks are playing.. you are not using mutes, instea simply instruments (or audio tracks) are sometimes feeding FX chain with audio, and sometimes not - bases on what is happening on timeline.

    Just in rare cases all tracks in songs are playing at once - so such optimisation would have major impact on using multiple instance in classic DAW use case...

  • @dendy said:

    @Blue_Mangoo
    the input were zero or near zero for a long time, we could detect that and put it to sleep on a low power mode. The problem is that it looks like when you mute a track in AUM, it mutes the output, not the input. Unfortunately I have no idea how to make the plugin aware of when the channel output is muted.

    Forget AUM for a moment... think about usual DAW.. during project playback.. different tracks are playing.. you are not using mutes, instea simply instruments (or audio tracks) are sometimes feeding FX chain with audio, and sometimes not - bases on what is happening on timeline.

    Just in rare cases all tracks in songs are playing at once - so such optimisation would have major impact on using multiple instance in classic DAW use case...

    I see what you mean. That is doable. I’ll post it on our task list.

  • @TimRussell said:
    I think there is currently only one AU tuner - 4pockets ‘analyser and tuner’. Never checked it out so don’t know how good it is.

    I don't think it's as accurate as iStroboSoft or IK Multimedia UltraTuner. The 4Pockets app seems to be consistently off by about 5–10 cents.

  • @Blue_Mangoo British chime was nice, just was I was looking for. Thanks.

  • @bcrichards said:
    @Blue_Mangoo British chime was nice, just was I was looking for. Thanks.

    Thanks.

    If you or anyone else needs a specific tone that the app doesn’t have, I would be happy to make an amp type for it.

    To get a really good amp model, all I need is a link to a youtube video or a an audio recording of the tone you want and recording of your guitar played clean with no effects, using the same pickup type and position as the tone in the video (for example Bridge Humbucker or Neck single coil). With those two things we can usually make an amp type that makes your guitar with that pickup sound like the tone in the video.

  • @Blue_Mangoo said:

    @bcrichards said:
    @Blue_Mangoo British chime was nice, just was I was looking for. Thanks.

    Thanks.

    If you or anyone else needs a specific tone that the app doesn’t have, I would be happy to make an amp type for it.

    To get a really good amp model, all I need is a link to a youtube video or a an audio recording of the tone you want and recording of your guitar played clean with no effects, using the same pickup type and position as the tone in the video (for example Bridge Humbucker or Neck single coil). With those two things we can usually make an amp type that makes your guitar with that pickup sound like the tone in the video.

    That’s really cool. That’s sort of what I was hoping we’d be able to do with app, getting to tinker with a lot of parameters to get a model just right. I like the tones you have but I’d probably have fun creating my own, too. I hope you find a way to release another app with more of the engine exposed.

  • @Blue_Mangoo said:

    @bcrichards said:
    @Blue_Mangoo British chime was nice, just was I was looking for. Thanks.

    Thanks.

    If you or anyone else needs a specific tone that the app doesn’t have, I would be happy to make an amp type for it.

    To get a really good amp model, all I need is a link to a youtube video or a an audio recording of the tone you want and recording of your guitar played clean with no effects, using the same pickup type and position as the tone in the video (for example Bridge Humbucker or Neck single coil). With those two things we can usually make an amp type that makes your guitar with that pickup sound like the tone in the video.

    I can send you . You need a dry tone right?

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