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call for beta testers for a guitar amp sim AU3 plugin

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Comments

  • @espiegel123 said:

    @Blue_Mangoo said:

    @espiegel123 said:

    @Blue_Mangoo said:

    @espiegel123 said:

    @Blue_Mangoo said:

    ...snip...snip

    However, at this beta testing stage, I want to identify places where we need to improve the plugin before release. So if you are using magic death eye not as a compressor but as a way to “fix” something that isnt right about the amp tone, then I would like to hear an example of the sound you are trying to get so I can get something like it added into the app.

    Keep in mind that because I had limited time to play (1 to 2 hours), I didn't fully explore whether I could get what I needed strictly by tweaking Gain Stage with nothing else in-line. So, what I am about to say might change given more time to tweak.

    My initial impression before adding Magic Death Eye was that things sounded pretty good on first listen but the "feel" for a lack of a better word was not what I look for in an amp. I can't quite put my finger on it (and to be clear: none of the amp sims has that "it" yet), but the relationship between how hard I was picking and the resulting variation in tone and grit. I am not saying it was bad just different from my personal preference -- and to be clear, this is an issue with all the iOS amp sims.

    While I don't normally use a compressor with my real amp, I thought that I would try the Magic Death Eye because i had heard a demo by @flo26 in which he used it -- and I recalled a discussion long ago with a bandmate (in the long ago when I was hoping to make a living from music) who was an amazing guitarist, amp afficionado and engineer who explained about the natural compression that preamp tubes provide in some ranges. So, I thought I'd see if Magic Death Eye might help with that. I felt like it did. I might be able to adjust the settings of Gain Stage so that the output sounds the same, but the feel improved for me with it in.

    If that "I don't know what" were inherent in Gain Stage that would be great, but it might be a tall order. I'll explore some more and see if I can be more articulate about specifics.

    The feel of the amp is the main thing I spent time on when designing this. I think I can make it feel like anything you want. Its just a matter of knowing what feel you are looking for. Currently all the presets feel exactly the way I want them to feel. But the main reason for doing this testing is that I know there are other styles of music that I don’t play. If you can tell me which presets feel wrong and send an example of a recording that feels right, I will attempt to make an amp that feels the way you want it to.

    Just had a long play and was really happy with the setup and feel with the Magic Death Eye in front of it. I can't quite put my finger on why it feels better to me. One part might simply be that the compressor in front is boosting my guitar signal and that the compression is just closer to how my preferred amps feel. I captured the direct guitar signal and the result to see if I can
    @espiegel123 said:

    @Blue_Mangoo said:

    @espiegel123 said:
    @Blue_Mangoo : unfortunately on the road and can't write at length. I really think you should re-consider the "a/b switch" issue. I hope you won't mind my offering some more thoughts on the topic as I think you are overlooking its importance to non-hobbyists.

    It wouldn't double the number of exposed parameters. I am only suggesting exposing one additional parameter (an a/b toggle ). Sure it increases some internal parameters, but in the grand scheme of things, the amount of memory is negligible and the benefit immense -- particularly if you are hoping serious players will use it. It is the sort of detail that has a subtle but significant meaning to a player,

    I don't understand why an A/B switch seems not in-keeping with it being AU? It seems perfectly in keeping with it being a serious AU.

    If, for example, I am using AUM to host my virtual guitar amp. I want the same button on my Blueboard or other source of control data to always toggle regardless of what base amp setting/model I've chosen.

    As a practical matter, if a player has to create two different variants for every amp tone AND be able to switch between them on the fly he/she will have to do a lot of planning and custom configuration which simply isn't a practical solution. On the other hand, it is a fairly simple thing for an app to implement.

    The long term benefit of building something like this in would be immense in terms of usability--particularly to guitar players (who as a whole tend not to want to get deep into the weeds of MIDI).

    In my opinion, it is far more consequential to its long-term appeal than whether or not I need to use an IR app on top of it. It is the sort of detail that tells a player whether the app was designed by players for players or designed by programmers. The sort of detail that would increase my confidence in what will come later if it is in version one. It tells me: these folks get guitar players in a way most programmers don't.

    I think the world of you and what you are trying to do and hope this will be taken in the positive spirit with which it is intended.

    The problem with having an AB switch in an audio unit is that when you save a preset you have to save both the A and B settings. Otherwise when you restore the preset you would only get the setting that was active when you pressed save. The other one would be lost.

    Sure, when you save the preset, you need to save both A and B settings internally. But that doesn't mean you need to expose all of those parameters or have them exposed simultaneously to the user. (As a programmer), I have to imagine with a little cleverness, the AU can internally have A and B settings stored for each preset but only display the ones that correspond to whether A or B is the current state of the "channel" toggle. For example, let's say "channel A" is active, internally you save any settings to A to A.inputGain, A.inputBass,A.intputMid, etc. When the user toggles to "B", you recall B.inputGain etc. (if they have been previously set, if not you just copy the A settings to "B") and when they make changes, you save those changes into B.inputGain, etc.

    Now, it is possible that it makes sense to have an internal setup where you have a complete set of settings that is what the user is exposed to which is really just a "buffer" settings, if the channel is set to A you load the A settings into the current settings buffer and if the channel toggles to B, you load its B settings. And yes, a preset has both sets of settings in it, but as far as what you present in the user interface and expose as AU parameters are the settings to "current" buffer.

    I hope that made sense. I imagine that you have lots of internal settings that change when you change the amp model that aren't exposed. I think with some creativity you can solve it and it would be worth solving.

    This is doable. But then when you restore a preset, it only loads one set of settings, not both A and B. I’m afraid that could cause confusion.

    Why wouldn't it recall both sets of settings? There must be some way of saving both the sets of parameters in the AU? If the only way for settings to be saved is if they are exposed -- then IMO, it would be worth having all of them exposed (it isn't really that many extra parameters) as I really do think in the long run that it is a pretty critical feature.

    If both presets are loaded and the plugin always defaults to the last button pressed (when the preset or the host session was saved), would that be confusing?

    Another option that comes into mind is some kind of setlist with, say, ten entries that can be populated with your presets of choice and be selected by program change messages or CC messages to support floor boards etc.

  • @Blue_Mangoo said:

    @espiegel123 said:
    Here is a little peak at how I've got it set up:

    That does sound nice. What pickup is that? Neck humbucker?

    It sounds like you are close to a larry carlton sound, like the one you suggested on Kid charlemagne. Would it work if I just get something that sounds like that in the amp?

    Thanks. That is the neck humbucker. I am embarrassed to say that I can't recall the actual type of humbucker. I had to replace my ancient (mid-70s) Dimarzio Super Distortion because it was failing. I think this is a PAF knockoff that the guitar tech really likes.

    If you could get that sound without needing the Magic Death Eye that would be awesome. I want to do some exploration to see if I can give you more of an idea of what the "extra" is that it is bringing.

    You'll notice that I've got the input gain dialed all the way up and the output gain dialed back. And the compressor setting is giving me some boost. I'll try to find some time to be a bit more systematic.

    My main goal was to get something dialed in quick -- and I felt like I was able to quickly able to get into a nice zone this way and focus on exploring the touch.

  • edited January 2020

    @rs2000 said:

    @espiegel123 said:

    @Blue_Mangoo said:

    @espiegel123 said:

    @Blue_Mangoo said:

    @espiegel123 said:

    @Blue_Mangoo said:

    ...snip...snip

    However, at this beta testing stage, I want to identify places where we need to improve the plugin before release. So if you are using magic death eye not as a compressor but as a way to “fix” something that isnt right about the amp tone, then I would like to hear an example of the sound you are trying to get so I can get something like it added into the app.

    Keep in mind that because I had limited time to play (1 to 2 hours), I didn't fully explore whether I could get what I needed strictly by tweaking Gain Stage with nothing else in-line. So, what I am about to say might change given more time to tweak.

    My initial impression before adding Magic Death Eye was that things sounded pretty good on first listen but the "feel" for a lack of a better word was not what I look for in an amp. I can't quite put my finger on it (and to be clear: none of the amp sims has that "it" yet), but the relationship between how hard I was picking and the resulting variation in tone and grit. I am not saying it was bad just different from my personal preference -- and to be clear, this is an issue with all the iOS amp sims.

    While I don't normally use a compressor with my real amp, I thought that I would try the Magic Death Eye because i had heard a demo by @flo26 in which he used it -- and I recalled a discussion long ago with a bandmate (in the long ago when I was hoping to make a living from music) who was an amazing guitarist, amp afficionado and engineer who explained about the natural compression that preamp tubes provide in some ranges. So, I thought I'd see if Magic Death Eye might help with that. I felt like it did. I might be able to adjust the settings of Gain Stage so that the output sounds the same, but the feel improved for me with it in.

    If that "I don't know what" were inherent in Gain Stage that would be great, but it might be a tall order. I'll explore some more and see if I can be more articulate about specifics.

    The feel of the amp is the main thing I spent time on when designing this. I think I can make it feel like anything you want. Its just a matter of knowing what feel you are looking for. Currently all the presets feel exactly the way I want them to feel. But the main reason for doing this testing is that I know there are other styles of music that I don’t play. If you can tell me which presets feel wrong and send an example of a recording that feels right, I will attempt to make an amp that feels the way you want it to.

    Just had a long play and was really happy with the setup and feel with the Magic Death Eye in front of it. I can't quite put my finger on why it feels better to me. One part might simply be that the compressor in front is boosting my guitar signal and that the compression is just closer to how my preferred amps feel. I captured the direct guitar signal and the result to see if I can
    @espiegel123 said:

    @Blue_Mangoo said:

    @espiegel123 said:
    @Blue_Mangoo : unfortunately on the road and can't write at length. I really think you should re-consider the "a/b switch" issue. I hope you won't mind my offering some more thoughts on the topic as I think you are overlooking its importance to non-hobbyists.

    It wouldn't double the number of exposed parameters. I am only suggesting exposing one additional parameter (an a/b toggle ). Sure it increases some internal parameters, but in the grand scheme of things, the amount of memory is negligible and the benefit immense -- particularly if you are hoping serious players will use it. It is the sort of detail that has a subtle but significant meaning to a player,

    I don't understand why an A/B switch seems not in-keeping with it being AU? It seems perfectly in keeping with it being a serious AU.

    If, for example, I am using AUM to host my virtual guitar amp. I want the same button on my Blueboard or other source of control data to always toggle regardless of what base amp setting/model I've chosen.

    As a practical matter, if a player has to create two different variants for every amp tone AND be able to switch between them on the fly he/she will have to do a lot of planning and custom configuration which simply isn't a practical solution. On the other hand, it is a fairly simple thing for an app to implement.

    The long term benefit of building something like this in would be immense in terms of usability--particularly to guitar players (who as a whole tend not to want to get deep into the weeds of MIDI).

    In my opinion, it is far more consequential to its long-term appeal than whether or not I need to use an IR app on top of it. It is the sort of detail that tells a player whether the app was designed by players for players or designed by programmers. The sort of detail that would increase my confidence in what will come later if it is in version one. It tells me: these folks get guitar players in a way most programmers don't.

    I think the world of you and what you are trying to do and hope this will be taken in the positive spirit with which it is intended.

    The problem with having an AB switch in an audio unit is that when you save a preset you have to save both the A and B settings. Otherwise when you restore the preset you would only get the setting that was active when you pressed save. The other one would be lost.

    Sure, when you save the preset, you need to save both A and B settings internally. But that doesn't mean you need to expose all of those parameters or have them exposed simultaneously to the user. (As a programmer), I have to imagine with a little cleverness, the AU can internally have A and B settings stored for each preset but only display the ones that correspond to whether A or B is the current state of the "channel" toggle. For example, let's say "channel A" is active, internally you save any settings to A to A.inputGain, A.inputBass,A.intputMid, etc. When the user toggles to "B", you recall B.inputGain etc. (if they have been previously set, if not you just copy the A settings to "B") and when they make changes, you save those changes into B.inputGain, etc.

    Now, it is possible that it makes sense to have an internal setup where you have a complete set of settings that is what the user is exposed to which is really just a "buffer" settings, if the channel is set to A you load the A settings into the current settings buffer and if the channel toggles to B, you load its B settings. And yes, a preset has both sets of settings in it, but as far as what you present in the user interface and expose as AU parameters are the settings to "current" buffer.

    I hope that made sense. I imagine that you have lots of internal settings that change when you change the amp model that aren't exposed. I think with some creativity you can solve it and it would be worth solving.

    This is doable. But then when you restore a preset, it only loads one set of settings, not both A and B. I’m afraid that could cause confusion.

    Why wouldn't it recall both sets of settings? There must be some way of saving both the sets of parameters in the AU? If the only way for settings to be saved is if they are exposed -- then IMO, it would be worth having all of them exposed (it isn't really that many extra parameters) as I really do think in the long run that it is a pretty critical feature.

    If both presets are loaded and the plugin always defaults to the last button pressed (when the preset or the host session was saved), would that be confusing?

    Another option that comes into mind is some kind of setlist with, say, ten entries that can be populated with your presets of choice and be selected by program change messages or CC messages to support floor boards etc.

    To be honest, when I have my guitar player hat on, even with a setlist, you typically will (in any given song) want to switch back and forth between your solo (or boosted) setting and the unboosted version of the same sound. That is even if you have a setlist and switch between setups -- within those setups, you almost always want that solo/regular toggle.

    p.s. The keyboard player/computer programmer hatted me scoffs at the guitar player -- but that is one of the things that tech companies often don't understand: guitar players approach things differently by and large from keyboard players with things like this.

  • Have played for some hours, Seems that it really doesn’t like my baritone tuned in B. no matter what amp I choose. Sounds a bit muddy and lifeless to my taste. Things improved a bit using a preamp pedal or a booster in front of the OMECTeleport I”m using as audio interface, but I really don”t get the bite, at least for the moment. Seems to work a little better with my tenor, but I”m still don”t get it. Same for the results using fuzz boxes like ZVex Fuzz Factory or Mamooth, or a RAT stomp box in front. It doesn’t feel great.
    On the other hand, is really quiet and runs really smooth.
    About the speaker emulation, I use my iPad as a another pedal integrated in a pedalboard equipped with a Radar as cabinet IR loader... I’d love to have the possibility to switch the speaker off. It’s the usual thing with pedal preamps like the last Mooers, AMTs, etc ones, they included cab simulation, but I can choose to use it or not. I understand your reasons, but as someone mentioned before, as a guitar player I changes the speakers and valves in my hardware amps looking for a tone... and found a little frustrating to have less options about my preferences in a software based system than in a hardware one.

    Best

  • @torrescampalans said:
    Have played for some hours, Seems that it really doesn’t like my baritone tuned in B. no matter what amp I choose. Sounds a bit muddy and lifeless to my taste. Things improved a bit using a preamp pedal or a booster in front of the OMECTeleport I”m using as audio interface, but I really don”t get the bite, at least for the moment. Seems to work a little better with my tenor, but I”m still don”t get it. Same for the results using fuzz boxes like ZVex Fuzz Factory or Mamooth, or a RAT stomp box in front. It doesn’t feel great.
    On the other hand, is really quiet and runs really smooth.
    About the speaker emulation, I use my iPad as a another pedal integrated in a pedalboard equipped with a Radar as cabinet IR loader... I’d love to have the possibility to switch the speaker off. It’s the usual thing with pedal preamps like the last Mooers, AMTs, etc ones, they included cab simulation, but I can choose to use it or not. I understand your reasons, but as someone mentioned before, as a guitar player I changes the speakers and valves in my hardware amps looking for a tone... and found a little frustrating to have less options about my preferences in a software based system than in a hardware one.

    Best

    Could you send a link with an example of the tone you are looking for?

  • @espiegel123 said:

    @rs2000 said:

    @espiegel123 said:

    @Blue_Mangoo said:

    @espiegel123 said:

    @Blue_Mangoo said:

    @espiegel123 said:

    @Blue_Mangoo said:

    ...snip...snip

    However, at this beta testing stage, I want to identify places where we need to improve the plugin before release. So if you are using magic death eye not as a compressor but as a way to “fix” something that isnt right about the amp tone, then I would like to hear an example of the sound you are trying to get so I can get something like it added into the app.

    Keep in mind that because I had limited time to play (1 to 2 hours), I didn't fully explore whether I could get what I needed strictly by tweaking Gain Stage with nothing else in-line. So, what I am about to say might change given more time to tweak.

    My initial impression before adding Magic Death Eye was that things sounded pretty good on first listen but the "feel" for a lack of a better word was not what I look for in an amp. I can't quite put my finger on it (and to be clear: none of the amp sims has that "it" yet), but the relationship between how hard I was picking and the resulting variation in tone and grit. I am not saying it was bad just different from my personal preference -- and to be clear, this is an issue with all the iOS amp sims.

    While I don't normally use a compressor with my real amp, I thought that I would try the Magic Death Eye because i had heard a demo by @flo26 in which he used it -- and I recalled a discussion long ago with a bandmate (in the long ago when I was hoping to make a living from music) who was an amazing guitarist, amp afficionado and engineer who explained about the natural compression that preamp tubes provide in some ranges. So, I thought I'd see if Magic Death Eye might help with that. I felt like it did. I might be able to adjust the settings of Gain Stage so that the output sounds the same, but the feel improved for me with it in.

    If that "I don't know what" were inherent in Gain Stage that would be great, but it might be a tall order. I'll explore some more and see if I can be more articulate about specifics.

    The feel of the amp is the main thing I spent time on when designing this. I think I can make it feel like anything you want. Its just a matter of knowing what feel you are looking for. Currently all the presets feel exactly the way I want them to feel. But the main reason for doing this testing is that I know there are other styles of music that I don’t play. If you can tell me which presets feel wrong and send an example of a recording that feels right, I will attempt to make an amp that feels the way you want it to.

    Just had a long play and was really happy with the setup and feel with the Magic Death Eye in front of it. I can't quite put my finger on why it feels better to me. One part might simply be that the compressor in front is boosting my guitar signal and that the compression is just closer to how my preferred amps feel. I captured the direct guitar signal and the result to see if I can
    @espiegel123 said:

    @Blue_Mangoo said:

    @espiegel123 said:
    @Blue_Mangoo : unfortunately on the road and can't write at length. I really think you should re-consider the "a/b switch" issue. I hope you won't mind my offering some more thoughts on the topic as I think you are overlooking its importance to non-hobbyists.

    It wouldn't double the number of exposed parameters. I am only suggesting exposing one additional parameter (an a/b toggle ). Sure it increases some internal parameters, but in the grand scheme of things, the amount of memory is negligible and the benefit immense -- particularly if you are hoping serious players will use it. It is the sort of detail that has a subtle but significant meaning to a player,

    I don't understand why an A/B switch seems not in-keeping with it being AU? It seems perfectly in keeping with it being a serious AU.

    If, for example, I am using AUM to host my virtual guitar amp. I want the same button on my Blueboard or other source of control data to always toggle regardless of what base amp setting/model I've chosen.

    As a practical matter, if a player has to create two different variants for every amp tone AND be able to switch between them on the fly he/she will have to do a lot of planning and custom configuration which simply isn't a practical solution. On the other hand, it is a fairly simple thing for an app to implement.

    The long term benefit of building something like this in would be immense in terms of usability--particularly to guitar players (who as a whole tend not to want to get deep into the weeds of MIDI).

    In my opinion, it is far more consequential to its long-term appeal than whether or not I need to use an IR app on top of it. It is the sort of detail that tells a player whether the app was designed by players for players or designed by programmers. The sort of detail that would increase my confidence in what will come later if it is in version one. It tells me: these folks get guitar players in a way most programmers don't.

    I think the world of you and what you are trying to do and hope this will be taken in the positive spirit with which it is intended.

    The problem with having an AB switch in an audio unit is that when you save a preset you have to save both the A and B settings. Otherwise when you restore the preset you would only get the setting that was active when you pressed save. The other one would be lost.

    Sure, when you save the preset, you need to save both A and B settings internally. But that doesn't mean you need to expose all of those parameters or have them exposed simultaneously to the user. (As a programmer), I have to imagine with a little cleverness, the AU can internally have A and B settings stored for each preset but only display the ones that correspond to whether A or B is the current state of the "channel" toggle. For example, let's say "channel A" is active, internally you save any settings to A to A.inputGain, A.inputBass,A.intputMid, etc. When the user toggles to "B", you recall B.inputGain etc. (if they have been previously set, if not you just copy the A settings to "B") and when they make changes, you save those changes into B.inputGain, etc.

    Now, it is possible that it makes sense to have an internal setup where you have a complete set of settings that is what the user is exposed to which is really just a "buffer" settings, if the channel is set to A you load the A settings into the current settings buffer and if the channel toggles to B, you load its B settings. And yes, a preset has both sets of settings in it, but as far as what you present in the user interface and expose as AU parameters are the settings to "current" buffer.

    I hope that made sense. I imagine that you have lots of internal settings that change when you change the amp model that aren't exposed. I think with some creativity you can solve it and it would be worth solving.

    This is doable. But then when you restore a preset, it only loads one set of settings, not both A and B. I’m afraid that could cause confusion.

    Why wouldn't it recall both sets of settings? There must be some way of saving both the sets of parameters in the AU? If the only way for settings to be saved is if they are exposed -- then IMO, it would be worth having all of them exposed (it isn't really that many extra parameters) as I really do think in the long run that it is a pretty critical feature.

    If both presets are loaded and the plugin always defaults to the last button pressed (when the preset or the host session was saved), would that be confusing?

    Another option that comes into mind is some kind of setlist with, say, ten entries that can be populated with your presets of choice and be selected by program change messages or CC messages to support floor boards etc.

    To be honest, when I have my guitar player hat on, even with a setlist, you typically will (in any given song) want to switch back and forth between your solo (or boosted) setting and the unboosted version of the same sound. That is even if you have a setlist and switch between setups -- within those setups, you almost always want that solo/regular toggle.

    p.s. The keyboard player/computer programmer hatted me scoffs at the guitar player -- but that is one of the things that tech companies often don't understand: guitar players approach things differently by and large from keyboard players with things like this.

    To have a plugin that saves presets inside of a host app that also saves presets seems to be a bad design. To me the point of having this be AU3 rather than a standalone guitar amp app is to allow you to chain up other plugins as if they were effects pedals. Having A/B setups in the plugin seems doable, but How would you handle a live performance situation where you are switching between three different setups that include different reverb and parametric eq plugins?

    It seems to me that there are two reasonable choices.
    1. Make it a standalone app that hosts audio units as effects, saves its own presets, and responds to MIDI patch change commands.

    or

    1. Make it a plugin and let the host app handle preset switching.

    If the plugin manages its own presets and the host app also manages them, it gets messy and has limited usefulness. I think the only use case is when someone wants to use Gain Stage on its own with no effects plugins. I can see myself using it like that, but it’s not a system that would please the majority of users.

  • @Blue_Mangoo : re the Carlton "Kid Charlemagne"/"Don't Take Me Alive" tone. Even though that video I posted of my playing is going in that direction -- it isn't very close. There is a lot more distortion than I had and a nicer high-mid "bite". If you can nail the sound on those recordings or get pretty close, you will be annointed a G-d. I can't tell you how many hours (lots and lots and lots) I spent trying to coax that sound out of my amp when I was in high school and college. I could get pretty close with the crappy Peavey hybrid sold-state/tube amp that I had (the pre-amp was the solid state part) if my amp had been on for hours and I turned both the pre and master up to maximum volume. After reading that article, I guess it is the sound of a smallish amp being cranked to the max.

    I just found this quote from Carlton: "Your solo on Steely Dan’s “Kid Charlemagne” is pretty legendary. Are there any secrets to that tone? I played the same 335 on 90% of my solo sessions, including the solo for “Kid Charlemagne.” I just used a little Tweed Deluxe amplifier. There’s video of that rig on my website. The combination that I used sound-wise for the “Kid Charlemagne” solo was the 335, Tweed Deluxe amplifier, back pickup and with the tone control turned down to about three."

    Btw, another very different sound that would be great to have represented is clean funk a la what you hear on James Brown's "The Chicken".

  • @espiegel123 said:
    @Blue_Mangoo : re the Carlton "Kid Charlemagne"/"Don't Take Me Alive" tone. Even though that video I posted of my playing is going in that direction -- it isn't very close. There is a lot more distortion than I had and a nicer high-mid "bite". If you can nail the sound on those recordings or get pretty close, you will be annointed a G-d. I can't tell you how many hours (lots and lots and lots) I spent trying to coax that sound out of my amp when I was in high school and college. I could get pretty close with the crappy Peavey hybrid sold-state/tube amp that I had (the pre-amp was the solid state part) if my amp had been on for hours and I turned both the pre and master up to maximum volume. After reading that article, I guess it is the sound of a smallish amp being cranked to the max.

    I just found this quote from Carlton: "Your solo on Steely Dan’s “Kid Charlemagne” is pretty legendary. Are there any secrets to that tone? I played the same 335 on 90% of my solo sessions, including the solo for “Kid Charlemagne.” I just used a little Tweed Deluxe amplifier. There’s video of that rig on my website. The combination that I used sound-wise for the “Kid Charlemagne” solo was the 335, Tweed Deluxe amplifier, back pickup and with the tone control turned down to about three."

    Btw, another very different sound that would be great to have represented is clean funk a la what you hear on James Brown's "The Chicken".

    “back pickup“ means “bridge position pickup?”

  • @Blue_Mangoo : yeah, I think back pickup means bridge pickup.

  • @Blue_Mangoo said:

    To have a plugin that saves presets inside of a host app that also saves presets seems to be a bad design. To me the point of having this be AU3 rather than a standalone guitar amp app is to allow you to chain up other plugins as if they were effects pedals. Having A/B setups in the plugin seems doable, but How would you handle a live performance situation where you are switching between three different setups that include different reverb and parametric eq plugins?

    It seems to me that there are two reasonable choices.
    1. Make it a standalone app that hosts audio units as effects, saves its own presets, and responds to MIDI patch change commands.

    or

    1. Make it a plugin and let the host app handle preset switching.

    If the plugin manages its own presets and the host app also manages them, it gets messy and has limited usefulness. I think the only use case is when someone wants to use Gain Stage on its own with no effects plugins. I can see myself using it like that, but it’s not a system that would please the majority of users.

    I think looking at it as "a plugin managing presets' is not how I would look at it. Maybe the way I tried to describe a way of accomplishing it made it seem that way.

    From a player's persepective, what I am talking about is super-intuitive (cuz it is how a huge percentage of good amps work), and I think it is a lot less complicated than you are making it sound (yeah, there is stuff for the programmer to manage but from a player's perspective: this is just how amps work).

    Don't think of it as an AU managing sub-presets. From a programmer's perspective--that is what it is. But from a player's it isn't: it is just having an amp that has two channels you can switch between). It doesn't complicate integrating of other effects and it doesn't only make sense in terms of guitar-based host amp (which is what all of us are hoping to get away from).

    If I am using a foot-controller and using AUM as my host, I always want the same button to be able to switch whatever amp I have called up between its two channels. If I've got my Larry Carlton Tweed Special called up, I want the same button on my BlueBoard to switch between the solo settings and rhythm settings. (Always sticking to the same amp model). If I've called up My Funk Amp, I want that same button on my pedal board to switch between clean and dirty as when I was playing the Tweed. In any song or set where I use those amps, I am going to constantly be switching back and forth between the rhythm and solo settings of whatever amp I am using for that song/set.

    I think you can see that if a player needed to set up a different preset for each amp's rhythm and solo tone it starts to be a nightmare to manage. Because they can't just call up there amp model and turn switch back and forth between channels, they have to switch back and forth between two entirely different presets -- and if you switch between amp models in your set that becomes a lot to manage.

    For some setups, someone might not even use it -- but in lots of setups one would.

    In my opinion, you are looking at it from the programmer's metaview rather than a gigging guitar player's.

    For people that don't play through amps a lot, it might not be obvious why this is an important feature.

    Sorry to go on about this, but I feel like there is an aspect of this that might not be clear. Let me try it another way.

    In any amp preset that you have, you get to have (but you don't need to use it if you don't want to) two states for that amp. That is a really really really common design of amps for good reason. And it is different from switching between amp setups.

    This isn't having Gain Stage additionally manage presets. It is simply that an amp preset contains settings for two amp channels. They would both be based on the same amp model -- the just let you switch between two tone/gain settings.

    I am not sure why you think it would seem to be a source of confusion if each amp preset had the possibility of having two states it switches between. Being able to switch between the rhythm and solo or clean and solo channels (or just A and B channels) really is bread and butter stuff for guitar players.

    What IS complicated is if I need to create a separate preset for both the rhythm and solo setting for each of my base amp setups - because managing presets in hosts is a nightmare AND I wouldn't be able to switch between rhythm and lead sound easily for my different amp models.

    If you use the dual-channel concept then things get infitely simpler. No matter what amp model I have called up, I can use the same MIDI command to toggle between rhythm/solo sound for that amp model.

    Is that any clearer?

  • One way to get A/B switching without changing Gain Stage is to host 2 instances of Gain Stage in AUM on separate channels. Set each instance to a different tone (e.g., rhythm and solo) and mute one of the channels. Then map a single midi note or cc to toggle the mutes on both channels using AUM’s midi ctrl feature. Now each time you send that midi message (from say a footboard) the mute will swap between channels. Use multiple AUM sessions if you need different tones for different songs.

  • McDMcD
    edited January 2020

    RE: Having an A/B switch capability.

    @Blue_Mangoo said:
    This is doable. But then when you restore a preset, it only loads one set of settings, not both A and B. I’m afraid that could cause confusion.

    If it's easily doable you should consider it. Guitar players are trained to hit a pedal or button before playing solos and switching back after.

    But I could see how this could be done in some Hosts using Muting on 2 channels each with an instance loaded. This would outrage a lot of guitarists but it could be a capability that comes with AUv3's ability to run 2 (or more) and switch in the Host.

    OPTIONALLY: 2 instances of an AUv3 share some common ram and there could be message/semaphor mechanisms in the program to pass ON/OFF
    status between 2 instance with:

    1. neither enabled
    2. one active at a time with a toggle switch
      or
    3. both active

    This could be extended to multiple instances which would be a capability
    beyond current hardware designs using buttons in each instance or a Master controller instance that manages the state of all instances and expose those controls in AU parameters.

    If you add the A/B switch then let the user pick 2 (or more) and save the combo settings as a User Preset that re-loads in the primary instance (potentially installing additional instances) or at least telling new instances what it's settings should be.

  • @Rebus_Knebus said:
    One way to get A/B switching without changing Gain Stage is to host 2 instances of Gain Stage in AUM on separate channels. Set each instance to a different tone (e.g., rhythm and solo) and mute one of the channels. Then map a single midi note or cc to toggle the mutes on both channels using AUM’s midi ctrl feature. Now each time you send that midi message (from say a footboard) the mute will swap between channels. Use multiple AUM sessions if you need different tones for different songs.

    But then you have to set up paired settings for every basic amp setup and coordinate loading of the pair. Especially nightmarish since managing presets in hosts is a major hassle especially if you create updated versions. This isn't some obscure feature one would rarely use. This sort of channel switching is kind of standard to a lot of folks.

  • McDMcD
    edited January 2020

    I think the intention of the app is the right set of trade offs for me:

    1. Ship with a nice roster or excellent tones that load fast and provide low latency.
    2. Allow me to run multiple instances (which is the primary benefit of AUv3)
    3. Use the Shared ram for coordination of multiple instances (would need to be added)

    Expect some number of buyers to refund the app if the presets don't make them happy.
    That really impacts the spreadsheet for your profits.

    Optionally, make the app free with 10 Presets. Sell additional Tone or Bundles as IAP's with no refunds. Put demo audio in every free copy to demo each IAP product. No refunds and every free user can't refund a free app.

    Roll out new IAP's over the life of the product.

    I'd love to influence the free apps but you should just give one in each major genre category and I'll continue to buy more Clean and Blues IAP's and pass on the High Gain and Metal
    products unless I have a need in future. You could also load all instances into the product and just required a payment to enable one or more. Lot's of work but you'd have reduced refunds, a lot more users trying out the tones and the UI and an even steady stream of
    revenues that can be mined by producing more and more IAP tones.

    Implying you will match any tone on demand is also a poor strategy because you can't own every guitar type in the market and that is a huge influence on tone.

    You can also create Tone Packs for Synths, Mastering, etc and really grow the potential user base. Put 1-2 Tones for Rhodes to give it that gritty sound or Boost a synth for more Moog-like bass when the product in weak in this regard.

    All these ideas are free to use without any expectations by me for any rights or benefits other than the joy of using your products. I'm just a fan and want to see this approach succeed in the market. I can sign any document you forward to me assure you of my intentions.

    I love this product but I know my tastes are not the same as most working guitar players so my opinion of the current Tone sets may be off base.

    I think Magic Death Eye, by the way, swims in Even Harmonics as your spectrum analysis of
    compressors indicate. They showed up as massive aliasing artifacts. That's good distortion for my tastes. It's warm and typical of analog tubes I think. Are you modeling or wave shaping to add that specific type of distortion? If not, Magic Death Eye is a users solution
    in the DAW setup.

    I found the combination of Gain Stage, iConvolver or Rooms! IR's for a kick in the low end and some room presence that is more profound that your efforts and ToneBoosters or AudioReverb to drench my sound in reverb with a lot of options... more than you can add on a tone by tone basis. I'm sure I'll find other AUv3 (or IAA) apps to work before or after Gain Stage and why not? JAX Filter Collection has a lot of great filters to seek interesting tone shapes. Does it add latency... probably. Buy your Gain Stage does help reduce the overall latency rather than ReAmp which I was using before as my Saturator stage. If you nail more tones that hit my sweet spot I might just run your app and be able to have more parallel
    tracks in AUM before the project craps out... that's a huge win for me and you. Displace your competition for FX dollars spent. Then let then try and figure out how you do it. Don't tell us or them. Follow Kemper's lead: tell them your approach without any specifics that enable the clone makers.

    Finally, you could create a Pro Editor app that allows someone to create Tones and sell them through your store or on PatchStorage for free.
    This Editor would require you to create a model of the internal product that
    is configured through pages of GUI settings. That might require a total re-write of the product but this Editor would be a real niche market and the users would pay $25-50 to get this level of control. Tone Nerds would share
    their expertise and settings.

  • edited January 2020

    @espiegel123 said:

    @Rebus_Knebus said:
    One way to get A/B switching without changing Gain Stage is to host 2 instances of Gain Stage in AUM on separate channels. Set each instance to a different tone (e.g., rhythm and solo) and mute one of the channels. Then map a single midi note or cc to toggle the mutes on both channels using AUM’s midi ctrl feature. Now each time you send that midi message (from say a footboard) the mute will swap between channels. Use multiple AUM sessions if you need different tones for different songs.

    But then you have to set up paired settings for every basic amp setup and coordinate loading of the pair. Especially nightmarish since managing presets in hosts is a major hassle especially if you create updated versions. This isn't some obscure feature one would rarely use. This sort of channel switching is kind of standard to a lot of folks.

    I see what you are saying and it makes sense. I'm just afraid that as soon as we give it two channels people will ask for the third and fourth and then we have a full-on preset system inside the plugin. I need to think carefully about whether adding A/B switch is the best way or not, and whether or not we should expose a second set of AU parameters for the B setting, or we should simply not let the B setting be saved when the host saves a preset. Another issue to consider is what happens when the user wants to copy from A to B or B to A. I'm trying to fit all these controls on the screen without having any extra menus. I figure there is enough space to add a forth row to the left side of the app. But it will have to be neat and tidy: just a switch and a label. Do people need to copy settings between A and B or would it be enough to simply manage the two separately?

    By the way, I just added a preset called "solo - kid c" I won't say it's 100% perfect copy of Larry Carlton's tone but it gets close in a nice way. That will be out in the next update.

  • @Blue_Mangoo said:

    @espiegel123 said:

    @Rebus_Knebus said:
    One way to get A/B switching without changing Gain Stage is to host 2 instances of Gain Stage in AUM on separate channels. Set each instance to a different tone (e.g., rhythm and solo) and mute one of the channels. Then map a single midi note or cc to toggle the mutes on both channels using AUM’s midi ctrl feature. Now each time you send that midi message (from say a footboard) the mute will swap between channels. Use multiple AUM sessions if you need different tones for different songs.

    But then you have to set up paired settings for every basic amp setup and coordinate loading of the pair. Especially nightmarish since managing presets in hosts is a major hassle especially if you create updated versions. This isn't some obscure feature one would rarely use. This sort of channel switching is kind of standard to a lot of folks.

    I see what you are saying and it makes sense. I'm just afraid that as soon as we give it two channels people will ask for the third and fourth and then we have a full-on preset system inside the plugin. I need to think carefully about whether adding A/B switch is the best way or not, and whether or not we should expose a second set of AU parameters for the B setting, or we should simply not let the B setting be saved when the host saves a preset. Another issue to consider is what happens when the user wants to copy from A to B or B to A. I'm trying to fit all these controls on the screen without having any extra menus. I figure there is enough space to add a forth row to the left side of the app. But it will have to be neat and tidy: just a switch and a label. Do people need to copy settings between A and B or would it be enough to simply manage the two separately?

    By the way, I just added a preset called "solo - kid c" I won't say it's 100% perfect copy of Larry Carlton's tone but it gets close in a nice way. That will be out in the next update.

    I honestly think your fear of a slippery slope from 2 to X is unfounded. For the vast majority that use channel switching (which is probably the majority of gigging guitarists), two is what they are used to and as a practical matter need. For more complicated setups, people resort to the sorts of things you can do by managing presets, etc.... and that is a minority. For that minority, working out how to get more than two won’t be onerous because they already have to deal with that.

    Most don’t. I think the nuance being missed is that A/B channel switching is the norm. It really is.

  • @espiegel123 said:

    @Blue_Mangoo said:

    @espiegel123 said:

    @Rebus_Knebus said:
    One way to get A/B switching without changing Gain Stage is to host 2 instances of Gain Stage in AUM on separate channels. Set each instance to a different tone (e.g., rhythm and solo) and mute one of the channels. Then map a single midi note or cc to toggle the mutes on both channels using AUM’s midi ctrl feature. Now each time you send that midi message (from say a footboard) the mute will swap between channels. Use multiple AUM sessions if you need different tones for different songs.

    But then you have to set up paired settings for every basic amp setup and coordinate loading of the pair. Especially nightmarish since managing presets in hosts is a major hassle especially if you create updated versions. This isn't some obscure feature one would rarely use. This sort of channel switching is kind of standard to a lot of folks.

    I see what you are saying and it makes sense. I'm just afraid that as soon as we give it two channels people will ask for the third and fourth and then we have a full-on preset system inside the plugin. I need to think carefully about whether adding A/B switch is the best way or not, and whether or not we should expose a second set of AU parameters for the B setting, or we should simply not let the B setting be saved when the host saves a preset. Another issue to consider is what happens when the user wants to copy from A to B or B to A. I'm trying to fit all these controls on the screen without having any extra menus. I figure there is enough space to add a forth row to the left side of the app. But it will have to be neat and tidy: just a switch and a label. Do people need to copy settings between A and B or would it be enough to simply manage the two separately?

    By the way, I just added a preset called "solo - kid c" I won't say it's 100% perfect copy of Larry Carlton's tone but it gets close in a nice way. That will be out in the next update.

    I honestly think your fear of a slippery slope from 2 to X is unfounded. For the vast majority that use channel switching (which is probably the majority of gigging guitarists), two is what they are used to and as a practical matter need. For more complicated setups, people resort to the sorts of things you can do by managing presets, etc.... and that is a minority. For that minority, working out how to get more than two won’t be onerous because they already have to deal with that.

    Most don’t. I think the nuance being missed is that A/B channel switching is the norm. It really is.

    The fear that offering A/B switching will lead to a large swell of arbitrary channels feels like being afraid that having a midrange tone control I addition to bass and trouble will lead to demands for 16-band graphic Eq.

  • edited January 2020

    @Blue_Mangoo : I look forward to “kid c”. Now, I guess I need to start playing more to get my chops back.

  • edited January 2020

    @espiegel123 said:

    @espiegel123 said:

    @Blue_Mangoo said:

    @espiegel123 said:

    @Rebus_Knebus said:
    One way to get A/B switching without changing Gain Stage is to host 2 instances of Gain Stage in AUM on separate channels. Set each instance to a different tone (e.g., rhythm and solo) and mute one of the channels. Then map a single midi note or cc to toggle the mutes on both channels using AUM’s midi ctrl feature. Now each time you send that midi message (from say a footboard) the mute will swap between channels. Use multiple AUM sessions if you need different tones for different songs.

    But then you have to set up paired settings for every basic amp setup and coordinate loading of the pair. Especially nightmarish since managing presets in hosts is a major hassle especially if you create updated versions. This isn't some obscure feature one would rarely use. This sort of channel switching is kind of standard to a lot of folks.

    I see what you are saying and it makes sense. I'm just afraid that as soon as we give it two channels people will ask for the third and fourth and then we have a full-on preset system inside the plugin. I need to think carefully about whether adding A/B switch is the best way or not, and whether or not we should expose a second set of AU parameters for the B setting, or we should simply not let the B setting be saved when the host saves a preset. Another issue to consider is what happens when the user wants to copy from A to B or B to A. I'm trying to fit all these controls on the screen without having any extra menus. I figure there is enough space to add a forth row to the left side of the app. But it will have to be neat and tidy: just a switch and a label. Do people need to copy settings between A and B or would it be enough to simply manage the two separately?

    By the way, I just added a preset called "solo - kid c" I won't say it's 100% perfect copy of Larry Carlton's tone but it gets close in a nice way. That will be out in the next update.

    I honestly think your fear of a slippery slope from 2 to X is unfounded. For the vast majority that use channel switching (which is probably the majority of gigging guitarists), two is what they are used to and as a practical matter need. For more complicated setups, people resort to the sorts of things you can do by managing presets, etc.... and that is a minority. For that minority, working out how to get more than two won’t be onerous because they already have to deal with that.

    Most don’t. I think the nuance being missed is that A/B channel switching is the norm. It really is.

    The fear that offering A/B switching will lead to a large swell of arbitrary channels feels like being afraid that having a midrange tone control I addition to bass and trouble will lead to demands for 16-band graphic Eq.

    Well... people ask for a lot of crazy things and every customer believes that his personal needs represent the needs of the community at large. My job is to figure out if they really are representing a large number of other users or not. Of course, I can always add an A/B switch and just say we're stopping there regardless of what anyone says.

    How important is it for you personally to have the ability to copy settings between A and B?

    How important it is that both the A and the B get saved by the host app when you save a preset? I'm concerned about doubling the number of audio unit parameters because another dev is writing the audio unit parameter code and there were many bugs in it before we released the beta. I am afraid that doubling the number of parameters means doubling the number of bugs.

  • @espiegel123 said:

    @espiegel123 said:

    @Blue_Mangoo said:

    @espiegel123 said:

    @Rebus_Knebus said:
    One way to get A/B switching without changing Gain Stage is to host 2 instances of Gain Stage in AUM on separate channels. Set each instance to a different tone (e.g., rhythm and solo) and mute one of the channels. Then map a single midi note or cc to toggle the mutes on both channels using AUM’s midi ctrl feature. Now each time you send that midi message (from say a footboard) the mute will swap between channels. Use multiple AUM sessions if you need different tones for different songs.

    But then you have to set up paired settings for every basic amp setup and coordinate loading of the pair. Especially nightmarish since managing presets in hosts is a major hassle especially if you create updated versions. This isn't some obscure feature one would rarely use. This sort of channel switching is kind of standard to a lot of folks.

    I see what you are saying and it makes sense. I'm just afraid that as soon as we give it two channels people will ask for the third and fourth and then we have a full-on preset system inside the plugin. I need to think carefully about whether adding A/B switch is the best way or not, and whether or not we should expose a second set of AU parameters for the B setting, or we should simply not let the B setting be saved when the host saves a preset. Another issue to consider is what happens when the user wants to copy from A to B or B to A. I'm trying to fit all these controls on the screen without having any extra menus. I figure there is enough space to add a forth row to the left side of the app. But it will have to be neat and tidy: just a switch and a label. Do people need to copy settings between A and B or would it be enough to simply manage the two separately?

    By the way, I just added a preset called "solo - kid c" I won't say it's 100% perfect copy of Larry Carlton's tone but it gets close in a nice way. That will be out in the next update.

    I honestly think your fear of a slippery slope from 2 to X is unfounded. For the vast majority that use channel switching (which is probably the majority of gigging guitarists), two is what they are used to and as a practical matter need. For more complicated setups, people resort to the sorts of things you can do by managing presets, etc.... and that is a minority. For that minority, working out how to get more than two won’t be onerous because they already have to deal with that.

    Most don’t. I think the nuance being missed is that A/B channel switching is the norm. It really is.

    The fear that offering A/B switching will lead to a large swell of arbitrary channels feels like being afraid that having a midrange tone control I addition to bass and trouble will lead to demands for 16-band graphic Eq.

    YES! A 16 band parametric EQ is just the tone stack I need for my 8 channel (with full memory recall) amp for my thrash metal jazz band. Finally, my dream is coming to life!

  • @Liquidmantis said:

    @espiegel123 said:

    @espiegel123 said:

    @Blue_Mangoo said:

    @espiegel123 said:

    @Rebus_Knebus said:
    One way to get A/B switching without changing Gain Stage is to host 2 instances of Gain Stage in AUM on separate channels. Set each instance to a different tone (e.g., rhythm and solo) and mute one of the channels. Then map a single midi note or cc to toggle the mutes on both channels using AUM’s midi ctrl feature. Now each time you send that midi message (from say a footboard) the mute will swap between channels. Use multiple AUM sessions if you need different tones for different songs.

    But then you have to set up paired settings for every basic amp setup and coordinate loading of the pair. Especially nightmarish since managing presets in hosts is a major hassle especially if you create updated versions. This isn't some obscure feature one would rarely use. This sort of channel switching is kind of standard to a lot of folks.

    I see what you are saying and it makes sense. I'm just afraid that as soon as we give it two channels people will ask for the third and fourth and then we have a full-on preset system inside the plugin. I need to think carefully about whether adding A/B switch is the best way or not, and whether or not we should expose a second set of AU parameters for the B setting, or we should simply not let the B setting be saved when the host saves a preset. Another issue to consider is what happens when the user wants to copy from A to B or B to A. I'm trying to fit all these controls on the screen without having any extra menus. I figure there is enough space to add a forth row to the left side of the app. But it will have to be neat and tidy: just a switch and a label. Do people need to copy settings between A and B or would it be enough to simply manage the two separately?

    By the way, I just added a preset called "solo - kid c" I won't say it's 100% perfect copy of Larry Carlton's tone but it gets close in a nice way. That will be out in the next update.

    I honestly think your fear of a slippery slope from 2 to X is unfounded. For the vast majority that use channel switching (which is probably the majority of gigging guitarists), two is what they are used to and as a practical matter need. For more complicated setups, people resort to the sorts of things you can do by managing presets, etc.... and that is a minority. For that minority, working out how to get more than two won’t be onerous because they already have to deal with that.

    Most don’t. I think the nuance being missed is that A/B channel switching is the norm. It really is.

    The fear that offering A/B switching will lead to a large swell of arbitrary channels feels like being afraid that having a midrange tone control I addition to bass and trouble will lead to demands for 16-band graphic Eq.


    YES! A 16 band parametric EQ is just the tone stack I need for my 8 channel (with full memory recall) amp for my thrash metal jazz band. Finally, my dream is coming to life!

    To be honest, I am seriously considering replacing the 3 band EQ with 5 bands

  • @espiegel123 said:
    @Blue_Mangoo : I look forward to “kid c”. Now, I guess I need to start playing more to get my chops back.

    Its live on testflight now.

  • @bcrichards said:
    @Blue_Mangoo i think I’m being fussy, but that’s a clean sound frequently included in other simulations. British clean and American clean. I like my clean sounds and will always want more.

    The models you have sound lovely though.

    The latest update on testflight has a vox ac30 clean sound

  • @Rebus_Knebus said:
    One way to get A/B switching without changing Gain Stage is to host 2 instances of Gain Stage in AUM on separate channels. Set each instance to a different tone (e.g., rhythm and solo) and mute one of the channels. Then map a single midi note or cc to toggle the mutes on both channels using AUM’s midi ctrl feature. Now each time you send that midi message (from say a footboard) the mute will swap between channels. Use multiple AUM sessions if you need different tones for different songs.

    Of course you can do that, like you can buy a couple of identical single channel amps and an ABY box to switch between them to emulate a double channel one. Not so complicated. But I rather prefer to buy a double channel since the single channel one doesn’t meet what becomes the norm. Not talking about n channels, parallel fix, or whatever strange setup I want to use. I know that I would need different personal solutions for different personal needs, no problem with that. We are talking about the A/B channel switch that is implemented even in cheap chinese preamp stomp pedals.
    Same with switchable speaker, I feel that I wouldn’t build my house according to the truck that brings the bricks. Just asking for what I think it’s the standard set of features that guitar players use to build their rigs

  • edited January 2020

    @Blue_Mangoo said:

    @Liquidmantis said:

    @espiegel123 said:

    @espiegel123 said:

    @Blue_Mangoo said:

    @espiegel123 said:

    @Rebus_Knebus said:
    One way to get A/B switching without changing Gain Stage is to host 2 instances of Gain Stage in AUM on separate channels. Set each instance to a different tone (e.g., rhythm and solo) and mute one of the channels. Then map a single midi note or cc to toggle the mutes on both channels using AUM’s midi ctrl feature. Now each time you send that midi message (from say a footboard) the mute will swap between channels. Use multiple AUM sessions if you need different tones for different songs.

    But then you have to set up paired settings for every basic amp setup and coordinate loading of the pair. Especially nightmarish since managing presets in hosts is a major hassle especially if you create updated versions. This isn't some obscure feature one would rarely use. This sort of channel switching is kind of standard to a lot of folks.

    I see what you are saying and it makes sense. I'm just afraid that as soon as we give it two channels people will ask for the third and fourth and then we have a full-on preset system inside the plugin. I need to think carefully about whether adding A/B switch is the best way or not, and whether or not we should expose a second set of AU parameters for the B setting, or we should simply not let the B setting be saved when the host saves a preset. Another issue to consider is what happens when the user wants to copy from A to B or B to A. I'm trying to fit all these controls on the screen without having any extra menus. I figure there is enough space to add a forth row to the left side of the app. But it will have to be neat and tidy: just a switch and a label. Do people need to copy settings between A and B or would it be enough to simply manage the two separately?

    By the way, I just added a preset called "solo - kid c" I won't say it's 100% perfect copy of Larry Carlton's tone but it gets close in a nice way. That will be out in the next update.

    I honestly think your fear of a slippery slope from 2 to X is unfounded. For the vast majority that use channel switching (which is probably the majority of gigging guitarists), two is what they are used to and as a practical matter need. For more complicated setups, people resort to the sorts of things you can do by managing presets, etc.... and that is a minority. For that minority, working out how to get more than two won’t be onerous because they already have to deal with that.

    Most don’t. I think the nuance being missed is that A/B channel switching is the norm. It really is.

    The fear that offering A/B switching will lead to a large swell of arbitrary channels feels like being afraid that having a midrange tone control I addition to bass and trouble will lead to demands for 16-band graphic Eq.


    YES! A 16 band parametric EQ is just the tone stack I need for my 8 channel (with full memory recall) amp for my thrash metal jazz band. Finally, my dream is coming to life!

    To be honest, I am seriously considering replacing the 3 band EQ with 5 bands

    5 bands fully parametric would certainly cover the majority of use cases.
    Maybe just show the 5 gain knobs on the main UI and have a little menu or 2nd page for the detailed EQ settings?
    That wouldn't irritate beginners and yet you'd have the power to fix resonances, peaks and dips or just do some unique sound design.

  • Either change the app description and call it the "iDirect Box" with installable DSP code or
    add the A/B switch. Example DSP modules: Aja solo, SRV slow ballad, etc. Nothing too specific but hinting really hard. You might get hit with some IP legal BS if the license holder
    thinks you're benefitting from their music.

    Or take the shared memory route. It won't use much CPU and then the user just sets up 2 instances of the AUv3 and your golden. That's the least disruptive feature. I think without the A/B you'll get killed with product refunds. You can't refund IAP's but then you get killed in the reviews. Label it as another FX app with presets maybe. Clever buyer will detect the amps and sell it in the comments. The "iDirect Black Box" - just plug into the DAW and record like the Pros.

    You could promise A/B in the first major update too... but many will smell a rat. How long to do the update? If it's too long to get the refund I will refund and buy it when you prove you can add it. No win/win there either. I've seen some dev's do that when they ship and the feedback on some feature kills sales. Scythe Synth is free with IAP's because it didn't have a reverb at launch. So, it sounded too harsh. Never really recovered, IMHO. Great product and I bought all the IAPs but still not a profitable venture for the dev. Sad really.

  • @Blue_Mangoo said:

    @espiegel123 said:

    @espiegel123 said:

    @Blue_Mangoo said:

    @espiegel123 said:

    @Rebus_Knebus said:
    One way to get A/B switching without changing Gain Stage is to host 2 instances of Gain Stage in AUM on separate channels. Set each instance to a different tone (e.g., rhythm and solo) and mute one of the channels. Then map a single midi note or cc to toggle the mutes on both channels using AUM’s midi ctrl feature. Now each time you send that midi message (from say a footboard) the mute will swap between channels. Use multiple AUM sessions if you need different tones for different songs.

    But then you have to set up paired settings for every basic amp setup and coordinate loading of the pair. Especially nightmarish since managing presets in hosts is a major hassle especially if you create updated versions. This isn't some obscure feature one would rarely use. This sort of channel switching is kind of standard to a lot of folks.

    I see what you are saying and it makes sense. I'm just afraid that as soon as we give it two channels people will ask for the third and fourth and then we have a full-on preset system inside the plugin. I need to think carefully about whether adding A/B switch is the best way or not, and whether or not we should expose a second set of AU parameters for the B setting, or we should simply not let the B setting be saved when the host saves a preset. Another issue to consider is what happens when the user wants to copy from A to B or B to A. I'm trying to fit all these controls on the screen without having any extra menus. I figure there is enough space to add a forth row to the left side of the app. But it will have to be neat and tidy: just a switch and a label. Do people need to copy settings between A and B or would it be enough to simply manage the two separately?

    By the way, I just added a preset called "solo - kid c" I won't say it's 100% perfect copy of Larry Carlton's tone but it gets close in a nice way. That will be out in the next update.

    I honestly think your fear of a slippery slope from 2 to X is unfounded. For the vast majority that use channel switching (which is probably the majority of gigging guitarists), two is what they are used to and as a practical matter need. For more complicated setups, people resort to the sorts of things you can do by managing presets, etc.... and that is a minority. For that minority, working out how to get more than two won’t be onerous because they already have to deal with that.

    Most don’t. I think the nuance being missed is that A/B channel switching is the norm. It really is.

    The fear that offering A/B switching will lead to a large swell of arbitrary channels feels like being afraid that having a midrange tone control I addition to bass and trouble will lead to demands for 16-band graphic Eq.

    Well... people ask for a lot of crazy things and every customer believes that his personal needs represent the needs of the community at large. My job is to figure out if they really are representing a large number of other users or not. Of course, I can always add an A/B switch and just say we're stopping there regardless of what anyone says.

    How important is it for you personally to have the ability to copy settings between A and B?

    How important it is that both the A and the B get saved by the host app when you save a preset? I'm concerned about doubling the number of audio unit parameters because another dev is writing the audio unit parameter code and there were many bugs in it before we released the beta. I am afraid that doubling the number of parameters means doubling the number of bugs.

    Let me think about this, I have a few thoughts but want to sleep on it. I appreciate your engaging on this.

    Had a chance for a quick listen to Kid C (played the dry signal from my earlier session through it) and am looking forward to playing my guitar through it.

    I noticed when I opened my dry guitar file that the signal was lower than I realized. So, the Magic Death Eye might have simply boosted the signal into a better amplitude range. I’ll look into that some more over the next few days.

  • Thank you @Blue_Mangoo for sharing the demo with us. I had a longer play last night and must say well done! It feels very familiar for me as I‘m using a similar technique.
    It’s cool to see everything in one AUv3. Amp, mono to stereo, reverb and limiter. All very useful! I see a lot of potential with Gain Stage.

    Sound wise GS definitely would benefit from having a wider range of sounds so that every type of pickup will have a fit. Having some thinner sounds and some fatter/warmer.

    A little wish that I have is to increase the gain amount all knobs have. So that more drastic eq changes and even more gain staging can be achieved.

    As for my amp sound preference. I like a tone in between clean and crunchy that mostly saturates at around 2200Hz with a wide bell (where a lot of audible detail and no mud lies).
    Then to compensate the high frequency saturation to have quite a strong high cut at around 3000Hz (as I shared in the other thread) and some low and mid shelving.
    I usually play with a lot of reverb so the sound must be rather thin but detailed.

    Here a little example that comes close:

    That’s my 2c :)
    Thank you for being open and listening to us all! That in my opinion is very valuable!

  • Just reading through this thread now and am excited for a proper AU guitar amp sim.
    Would love to have been able to join the beta - is it still possible?

    I think it’s important to get half a dozen of ‘classic’ guitar amps right, along with a handful of ‘essential’ fx. Sell the entry level app cheap then have scores of amp models and fx available as IAP.
    Most of us have already tonnes of tone-sculpting options in our existing AU fx apps and may not want to pay upfront for a whole load more which may be redundant, and those that don’t then have plenty of options.

    And just to go back to the Larry Carlton KC tone question (as it is also a favourite of mine!) - it is indeed a Tweed Deluxe but with a 12AX7 preamp tube. I have a tweed deluxe and it stays pretty clean up to about 5 on the dial because it has a 12AY7 preamp tune (much lower gain).
    In the 60s & 70s many musicians swapped the stock 12AY7 for 12AX7 in order to get higher gain tones in the studio without cranking the volume.

  • @TimRussell said:
    Just reading through this thread now and am excited for a proper AU guitar amp sim.
    Would love to have been able to join the beta - is it still possible?

    I think it’s important to get half a dozen of ‘classic’ guitar amps right, along with a handful of ‘essential’ fx. Sell the entry level app cheap then have scores of amp models and fx available as IAP.
    Most of us have already tonnes of tone-sculpting options in our existing AU fx apps and may not want to pay upfront for a whole load more which may be redundant, and those that don’t then have plenty of options.

    And just to go back to the Larry Carlton KC tone question (as it is also a favourite of mine!) - it is indeed a Tweed Deluxe but with a 12AX7 preamp tube. I have a tweed deluxe and it stays pretty clean up to about 5 on the dial because it has a 12AY7 preamp tune (much lower gain).
    In the 60s & 70s many musicians swapped the stock 12AY7 for 12AX7 in order to get higher gain tones in the studio without cranking the volume.

    Interesting. I did wonder why that sound has higher gain than what normally comes out of a fender preamp.

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