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Removing Bleed Through
I’ve gone from doing guitar instrumental music, to writing songs. I have a desire to record and video live, so as I have only a pair of mics and an interface with two inputs, this means one mic on the guitar, and one on the vocals. Both are cardioid mics, but I’m getting a lot of bleed through on the both. I do need to experiment with placement of the mics, check out the shape of their fields, and where I sit in the room. But I also had a suggestion from someone that there are filters available on the desktop that will remove bleed. Has anyone found anything like this on iOS.
Comments
I’d say go for the most directional mics you can get. Also place them as close to the source as possible so improve sound to room ratio. I’ve experimented with many mics and settled for a cheap dynamic Tom/snare mic for the vocals but this is my personal preference. Noise gate might work depending on how loud the background/playback sound is. I’ve tried it and it doesn’t really work for me but the stuff I do is quite punchy so no surprise there.
Following this thread.
I did some recording last year with guitar and vox at the same time, and can say, no matter what you do, the sound will be compromised... the way to really do it up is to overdub the vocals, and the guitar. But since you are doing video, that rules that out.
On our recording I used two condenser mics with them set to a figure 8 pattern, next to each other, on their side, with one pointed downward at the guitar, and one upward at the mouth. Turned 90 degrees (like a blumlien mic pair) so the deep null of the mic is pointed at the other source. It worked... ok. Better than 2 cardioid mics.
The problem is, the sources are so close to each other, and bleed so much, that the slight time delay between the sound getting to its mic, and then bleeding into the other, causes phasing. Also, at least large diaphragm condenser mics, the off axis (the bleed) response is weird sounding. Small diaphragm condensers are better in this regard. If you must use cardioid condensers, maybe try putting the mics next to each other, but pointed away from each other- so the sound arrives at each mic at the same time. Or, give up on separation, and just do a stereo pair out in front of you, and move them until you get a nice balance between vocals and guitar.
One exception to these problems, is if the guitar has a built in pickup, and sounds ok. They tend to not pick up singing very much. You could do a thing, like find a place where it is mostly vocals, but the guitar bleed sounds ok, and then time delay the direct signal from the guitar, so it lines up with the bleed (might be 1-1.5ms).
As far as processing goes, the best luck I’ve had reducing bad vocal bleed, in the guitar mic, is to use a multiband compressor, just on the midrange, so it only compresses when the vocals get loud. This is a little less destructive, and leaves more of the guitar, than compressing everything.
My first pass, I videod and recorded guitar, then videod and recorded the vocal. I also record the audio into Auria as I’m doing this, and then I yank the old audio off the video, and replace with the nicely recorded and mastered audio. Works pretty good. I was think I’d just alternate between my playing guitar and singing in the video. But, I sing and play better together, and it just looks better. So, there’s going to be some kind of tradeoff.
I’ll have a go with the MB compressor.
Or you could pretend you are in the old days and just use one mic.
If your voice is too loud move it closer to the guitar... and vice versa.
They used to manage too get decent recordings of a whole band with one mic by just moving the different instruments closer and further from the mic until the balance was right.
Of course. But if you want apply eq, reverb and compression to each voice or instrument to suit the mix, you have a problem.
Indeed!
Bleed is always part and parcel of live multi track recordings. Guitar and vocal is always a problem as they are so close together. If you weren't also making a video I would suggest using some small sound absorbing screens to physically block some of the guitar sound from the vocal mic (and vice versa) - in the same way that people have started doing with snare mics to help reduce bleed from the hi-hat.
Just count yourself lucky you are not recording live squeezebox and vocals - those boxes make so much noise and spill into the vocal mic so much they would make your current vocal and guitar tracks seem as if they were in perfect isolation by comparison.
Just move mics until the bleed works. Figure 8 can be helpful but you have 2 cardioid.
I recently got the little labs IBP plug-in for my uad system and it is great for working with phase later, or if pro-q has all pass filters you could experiment with those in auria. I don’t remember if it does.
But, easiest thing is to embrace the bleed and just make it sound good.
Lol. Stop being so reasonable. I want magic, dammit.
Try the IBP plugin then, it is pretty magical.
The figure 8 technique mentioned really does work well though, so if you are able to get a figure 8 mic in the future it would be worthwhile. Or a shotgun mic could work, that might be worth a shot.
Also, look up what the Grateful Dead did with their vocal mics when they used the wall of sound PA- two mics in opposite polarity so the bleed gets cancelled out as you sing in only the top mic.
Choosing the right microphones for the task saves you from a lot of post-processing hassle.
The only processor I'd use is a downward expander on both mikes to get rid of most of the remaining bleed.
The blumlein/2x figure 8’s didn’t work like magic for me, we tweaked the placement quite a bit. What I didn’t like was that rejecting the opposite source pretty much dictated where the mic was placed, rather than where it sounded best on the source you are trying to capture. Figure 8 picks up what is behind it too, so it picks up more room ambience/echo. I was trying to baffle the other side with acoustical panels but it still was roomy. It does bleed significantly less than 2x cardioid, worth trying, but not a silver bullet.
Soft singers not withstanding, I found the more troublesome issue was vocal bleed into the guitar mic. There would be so much in the guitar mic, that I couldn’t use very much of the (much better sounding) vocal mic, and ended up with a compromised, thin vocal sound. That’s where the DI on the guitar comes in handy.
It’s really an interesting engineering problem, but I think for a video I would do one mic, in a nice position, like 2 feet away, or a spaced stereo pair. Then multiband compress that, splitting up the midrange to work on the vocals, and the high band to work on S’s. Unless there was DI on the guitar.
Doesn’t help for eq or dynamics, but if you wanted special reverb on something, like vocals, you could overdub a secret vocal, that only feeds a reverb. No dry.
That’s an interesting thought.
Try the LR baggs sound hole pick up if you want a decent acoustic sound. With one mic your problem is pretty much sorted.
I agree that the best thing is to just get a sound that works at the source workout worrying about processing later. I’ve never tried the Grateful Dead thing, so I only know the theory of why it works. I’m not a fan of the dead so I can’t speak to anything about having heard or tried it.
When I did the figure 8 thing, I only used it on voice, so only one figure 8, and I had some acoustic blankets that the singers were facing to reduce reflections from that side. They sang together along with live uke played by the male singer. Female singer was on her own mic. I miked the instrument using an small diaphragm condenser, but I don’t remember what I used. I did that on “Love Beyond your Means“ on our first shutterwax album if anyone wants to hear it. But in that case I tried the best I could to like the sound I was getting from everything together. Whether it worked or not I can’t say, but I am happy with that song given what I knew at the time.
On another note, a solution that’s not expensive for the acoustic and I think sounds great is the irig acoustic stage. I’ve Gotten some great sounds with that both in the studio and in live events.