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Summer Discussion: Authority... What Is It Good for?

So I am having a talk with my Turkish wife... she says I have an authority problem. Indeed I do! I am suspicious of authority from my tender years. I have never really had a boss (beyond my Turkish wife) in my entire life. I tell her 90% of today’s workers are modern day slaves (I am grateful to them, of course. They slave so I can have a flat screen tv... which I don’t, but I could!)
She responds: That’s life! I say this is more an Ottomanic acceptance than the American Dream I grew up with. Turkish folk music is full of lament. Turkish women oof and groan at the drop of a fez. Centuries of oppression have inured the Turks to the rule of one over the many. Of course, especially with the industrial revolution, the same has become true in the west, perhaps without the oofing.

So what is your opinion about authority? Society labels free thinkers as folks with “authority “ problems. I have lived my life mostly within the rules of society. Am I anti social? For the good of the continuation of a society... no. For how I have lived and choose to live my life... An emphatic YES!

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Comments

  • Very true, in many places free thinkers are seen
    to have problems with Authority and from the perspective
    of the figures in authority rightly so.
    Free thinkers challenge the authority figures if the authority figures
    abuse their position of authority which is especially true
    in this time of abusive leaders, mentioning no names.

    What you have deemed anti social is actually the reverse.
    Society itself needs to live in harmony, it does need a hierarchy
    but it needs a hierarchy that teaches how to thrive not destroy.
    That teaches how to build, fix, create and most importantly
    for us as a global community to live in peace.

    The current figures of power are teaching destruction
    and free thinkers are challenging that so yeah,
    be as anti social as you want.

  • edited August 3

    For instance,

    Here's some footage from my viewpoint,

    'Anti-Trump Protest', from last year here in the U.K

    'Britain is Broken March', earlier this year,

    I am also compiling footage that I recorded of
    the 1.9 million protesters that marched
    against the U.K leaving the E.U.

  • I had hoped this discussion could remain on the theoretical level without specific personalities. I should have asked for that, but I ask now. Can we keep it philosophical?

    For example, I have always been an opponent of standardized education for my own free thinking life. I saw the whole progression of training from grade school thru college as preparation for work force entry and the sacrifice of one’s individual freedom for the needs of society. The inculcation is insidious and we are further trapped by cultural norms which encourage us to have children in our twenties, thereby insuring we will hardly be able to lift our heads and be free again. Just my opinion. Non specific and theoretical. I ask you to do the same, please.

  • @LinearLineman

    I totally hear you.

    My apologies for taking it out of the theoretical and bringing it into the specific.

    Heading out for a meal with some interesting artists
    so I shall be giving this some thought on route.
    Enjoy your day, adjusting for timezone.

  • edited August 3

    I am a slave but I have to blame my own stupidity, laziness and emotions rather than the society around me.

  • @TrevorLlewellyn said:
    I am a slave but I have to blame my own stupidity, laziness and emotions rather than the society around me.

    :)

    I too am a slave. I've never had much hustle, it doesn't interest me.

    Still I am where I want to be, earning a living from doing what I love.

    I have a problem with authority, I do not like being forced to think a certain way. Actually I don't think that's possible now that I think of it.

  • edited August 3

    @LinearLineman said:
    I had hoped this discussion could remain on the theoretical level without specific personalities. I should have asked for that, but I ask now. Can we keep it philosophical?

    For example, I have always been an opponent of standardized education for my own free thinking life. I saw the whole progression of training from grade school thru college as preparation for work force entry and the sacrifice of one’s individual freedom for the needs of society. The inculcation is insidious and we are further trapped by cultural norms which encourage us to have children in our twenties, thereby insuring we will hardly be able to lift our heads and be free again. Just my opinion. Non specific and theoretical. I ask you to do the same, please.

    This statement can be seen as an authoritarian response as you have moderation authority other posters do not so there is not an even playing field in terms of an ability to shape the direction and content of posts.

    Personally I believe this forum will never be able to fully address these sorts of issues due to a significant proportion of people who decline to abide by the informal guidelines for the group and eventually are banned. If people are interested in exploring these sorts of topics more fully beyond the abstract level without the restrictions of not being able to go into specific details, they should seek out other forums which are more open to these sorts of discussions. If you believe the devil is in the details, then the hygienic conversations here may not be very fulfilling for you.

  • edited August 3

    @InfoCheck said:

    @LinearLineman said:
    I had hoped this discussion could remain on the theoretical level without specific personalities. I should have asked for that, but I ask now. Can we keep it philosophical?

    For example, I have always been an opponent of standardized education for my own free thinking life. I saw the whole progression of training from grade school thru college as preparation for work force entry and the sacrifice of one’s individual freedom for the needs of society. The inculcation is insidious and we are further trapped by cultural norms which encourage us to have children in our twenties, thereby insuring we will hardly be able to lift our heads and be free again. Just my opinion. Non specific and theoretical. I ask you to do the same, please.

    This statement can be seen as an authoritarian response as you have moderation authority other posters do not so there is not an even playing field in terms of an ability to shape the direction and content of posts.

    Personally I believe this forum will never be able to fully address these sorts of issues due to a significant proportion of people who decline to abide by the informal guidelines for the group and eventually are banned. If people are interested in exploring these sorts of topics more fully beyond the abstract level without the restrictions of not being able to go into specific details, they should seek out other forums which are more open to these sorts of discussions. If you believe the devil is in the details, then the hygienic conversations here may not be very fulfilling for you.

    You have a point. I sort of agree.

  • edited August 3

    @InfoCheck said:

    @LinearLineman said:
    I had hoped this discussion could remain on the theoretical level without specific personalities. I should have asked for that, but I ask now. Can we keep it philosophical?

    For example, I have always been an opponent of standardized education for my own free thinking life. I saw the whole progression of training from grade school thru college as preparation for work force entry and the sacrifice of one’s individual freedom for the needs of society. The inculcation is insidious and we are further trapped by cultural norms which encourage us to have children in our twenties, thereby insuring we will hardly be able to lift our heads and be free again. Just my opinion. Non specific and theoretical. I ask you to do the same, please.

    This statement can be seen as an authoritarian response as you have moderation authority other posters do not so there is not an even playing field in terms of an ability to shape the direction and content of posts.

    Personally I believe this forum will never be able to fully address these sorts of issues due to a significant proportion of people who decline to abide by the informal guidelines for the group and eventually are banned. If people are interested in exploring these sorts of topics more fully beyond the abstract level without the restrictions of not being able to go into specific details, they should seek out other forums which are more open to these sorts of discussions. If you believe the devil is in the details, then the hygienic conversations here may not be very fulfilling for you.

    +100
    Besides that this type of political discussions suck on Audiobus especially because they need to fulfill the biased view of it's topicstarter who, which even is worse, has moderation capabilities ordinairy AB members don't have. So he can close this kind of threads whenever he wants to. So the initial power positions of these type discussions are not the same. As @InfoCheck puts it there's no even playing field.

  • edited August 3

    ‘Authority’ is a pretty abstract and broad concept to me. How do I respond to the question? By going here and reading...

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authority

  • @InfoCheck... i don't really get your point. If someone has something to say about a topic they can say it. If not they don't. It is up to each poster to act in a civil way. This is not a trial. "Evidence" is not necessary to make a theoretical point.

    This topic is just a stimulus for thinking about stuff that might be important regarding the choices we make in life. It is for each individual to decide if they will try to use society, are used by it, or some sort of negotiation. It is the sad unconsciousness of going thru life unaware of the forces of society and parental/educational systems (or military/nationalistic systems) which shape our minds in a calculated and often insidious way that is the issue.

    I worked in the system for about half the normal time most folks do. I had my own business and was lucky. I watched people who were my clients devote decades to a corporation and its culture of authority with the hope that their futures might somehow be secure; that they were a part of the great chain of commercial being and would be rewarded by their loyalty.
    Well, they were cast aside in the end and their succumbing to the "system" either consciously or unconsciously did not yield the promised results. Perhaps if they knew that from the beginning they might have made another choice. Authority always has an agenda and a spiel, and it is not for the happiness of the mob.

    Another good case for not playing the game is winding up relatively ok at the end of the indenture only to be wiped out by catastrophic illness. All those years following the rules, adhering to the wisdom of "authority" and no payoff. Used and thrown away.

    Young people realize more and more that the job game does not pay off anymore. Yet they are still stuck in the cogs of the economic engine, or they settle for being "unemployed". Not everyone can benefit by being conscious of what is going on. Billions must toil and somehow be okay with it or civilization will not continue. But for those who need another way to have a fulfilled life to be cheated by the educational hierarchy, without, at least, understanding what is going down is unfortunate. Need I mention student loans? Talk about indentured servitude.

    As for my authoritarian position as a moderator, I did not ask for the anal probe, and who better to not interfere as much as possible in free speech than someone who believes in it above most other things. Still, if anyone wants it, it's yours!

  • edited August 3

    @LinearLineman said:
    @InfoCheck... i don't really get your point. If someone has something to say about a topic they can say it. If not they don't. It is up to each poster to act in a civil way. This is not a trial. "Evidence" is not necessary to make a theoretical point.

    This topic is just a stimulus for thinking about stuff that might be important regarding the choices we make in life. It is for each individual to decide if they will try to use society, are used by it, or some sort of negotiation. It is the sad unconsciousness of going thru life unaware of the forces of society and parental/educational systems (or military/nationalistic systems) which shape our minds in a calculated and often insidious way that is the issue.

    I worked in the system for about half the normal time most folks do. I had my own business and was lucky. I watched people who were my clients devote decades to a corporation and its culture of authority with the hope that their futures might somehow be secure; that they were a part of the great chain of commercial being and would be rewarded by their loyalty.
    Well, they were cast aside in the end and their succumbing to the "system" either consciously or unconsciously did not yield the promised results. Perhaps if they knew that from the beginning they might have made another choice. Authority always has an agenda and a spiel, and it is not for the happiness of the mob.

    Another good case for not playing the game is winding up relatively ok at the end of the indenture only to be wiped out by catastrophic illness. All those years following the rules, adhering to the wisdom of "authority" and no payoff. Used and thrown away.

    Young people realize more and more that the job game does not pay off anymore. Yet they are still stuck in the cogs of the economic engine, or they settle for being "unemployed". Not everyone can benefit by being conscious of what is going on. Billions must toil and somehow be okay with it or civilization will not continue. But for those who need another way to have a fulfilled life to be cheated by the educational hierarchy, without, at least, understanding what is going down is unfortunate. Need I mention student loans? Talk about indentured servitude.

    As for my authoritarian position as a moderator, I did not ask for the anal probe, and who better to not interfere as much as possible in free speech than someone who believes in it above most other things. Still, if anyone wants it, it's yours!

    ‘Choice’ to me has been a small part of the equation when it comes to my own life and the lives of those I have been privy to intimately witness. ‘Circumstance’ has played the largest part. Not to say that choice is trivial or does not have an impact.

  • @greengrocer, there is no such thing as an "unbiased" view. With respect, your comments are biased because you think my authority, in this case, could shut you down without cause. Yet we all know, intuitively, what is civil and what is not. I think I have closed one thread (or 2?) in my tenure. As I say, you can have it if you like.

    As to AB being verboten to any type of non tech, non jovial subject. Well, some will think so and some will not with all the same attending reasons. I bring up this subject because people here are musicians and not just techies. Society does not often look favorably on the musical works of freethinkers. Lots of parents will convince their kids a better, more secure life awaits them in the "real" world. Well, is that really true, especially these days?

  • @LinearLineman said:
    @InfoCheck... i don't really get your point. If someone has something to say about a topic they can say it. If not they don't. It is up to each poster to act in a civil way. This is not a trial. "Evidence" is not necessary to make a theoretical point.

    This topic is just a stimulus for thinking about stuff that might be important regarding the choices we make in life. It is for each individual to decide if they will try to use society, are used by it, or some sort of negotiation. It is the sad unconsciousness of going thru life unaware of the forces of society and parental/educational systems (or military/nationalistic systems) which shape our minds in a calculated and often insidious way that is the issue.

    I worked in the system for about half the normal time most folks do. I had my own business and was lucky. I watched people who were my clients devote decades to a corporation and its culture of authority with the hope that their futures might somehow be secure; that they were a part of the great chain of commercial being and would be rewarded by their loyalty.
    Well, they were cast aside in the end and their succumbing to the "system" either consciously or unconsciously did not yield the promised results. Perhaps if they knew that from the beginning they might have made another choice. Authority always has an agenda and a spiel, and it is not for the happiness of the mob.

    Another good case for not playing the game is winding up relatively ok at the end of the indenture only to be wiped out by catastrophic illness. All those years following the rules, adhering to the wisdom of "authority" and no payoff. Used and thrown away.

    Young people realize more and more that the job game does not pay off anymore. Yet they are still stuck in the cogs of the economic engine, or they settle for being "unemployed". Not everyone can benefit by being conscious of what is going on. Billions must toil and somehow be okay with it or civilization will not continue. But for those who need another way to have a fulfilled life to be cheated by the educational hierarchy, without, at least, understanding what is going down is unfortunate. Need I mention student loans? Talk about indentured servitude.

    As for my authoritarian position as a moderator, I did not ask for the anal probe, and who better to not interfere as much as possible in free speech than someone who believes in it above most other things. Still, if anyone wants it, it's yours!

    One of the key characteristics of authority is that they set the rules for discussion. While you didn’t seek out the position of forum moderator, you did accept it. You’ve also provided specific details in this post about your personal life with respect to how you came to hold your views on authority. Perhaps you might want to consider the merits of recusal?

    In my experience, it’s been easier to see how we suffer the abuse of authority by others than it is to gain insight into our own behavior in this regard.

  • Lolz, iz meta?

  • @AudioGus. I sure can understand what you say... but if you begin by thinking you do not have a choice and that you are crushed under the circumstances... well, then it is rather impossible.

    I had relatively little economic privilege and yet choice was very possible. Is that time gone?
    Or is it if you ride along without questioning everything "they" tell you, you wind up just where "they" want you?

    Frankly, my point of view and this topic is not political but merely subversive. Actually, I have to laugh at the usual responses to a thought provoking subject. Watch the Matrix and everyone goes "Right on! Up the man! Freedom rocks!" But when it has real relevance, as in the choices a musician makes with his or her future, it is inappropriate, for some, to talk about it amongst a community of virtual friends.

  • @infocheck, if no one but you me and @AudioGus enjoy this discussion then it will self recuse. So no worries.

    As far as my right to talk about these things because I am in a so called position of authority, let me ask you... are you in a position of authority? Are you a parent? A teacher? A boss? Many of us have positions of authority, do we not? If you play the game you will get your share. Fortunately, for me, I am not a parent, a teacher or someone's boss. I played consciously and rejected all aspects of the game as soon as possible. Being a moderator here? Just an ironic lark.

  • I think the issue is not authority per se but when a situation arises where one doesn’t recognise the legitimacy of an authority. For example, parental authority over a child is fine, since we must guide and author the child’s early days, to protect them and to provide an enabling environment in which they might flourish. But political authority is often not like that, especially when one has no trust in the authority to author the environment which structures and gives meaning to our lives. Given that there are many such authorities we deem illegitimate, we can never overcome our ‘problem with authority’. Ultimately, I think we can only work to unravel illegitimate authorities - but it’s wise, also, to recognise the ‘authority’ of some authorities, if you see what I mean? I, for example, recognise the musical authority of @LinearLineman, and would never seek to ‘overturn’ it or whatever. Listening to him and his music is good for me, and so I recognise the legitimacy in bestowing upon him the status of a ‘musical authority’ in relation to myself. When we don’t recognise an authority, though, the relation might well be one of domination. The starkest example of the latter would be political authoritarianism (an author of our lives, but one based on a relation of dominance and subordination). But this is a political post on a wonderfully politics-free forum. Apologies!

  • edited August 3

    @LinearLineman said:
    @AudioGus. I sure can understand what you say... but if you begin by thinking you do not have a choice and that you are crushed under the circumstances... well, then it is rather impossible.

    Yah, many people are very much in that boat. I have a friend who is an extreme case of this and is in and out of the hospital with their ‘thinking’ being a very real and apparently physical challenge for them. Many of us can tweak and tune our thinking and brains to forge on with hope or optimism (despite results or not) while others are crushed by their mental circumstance.

    I had relatively little economic privilege and yet choice was very possible. Is that time gone?
    Or is it if you ride along without questioning everything "they" tell you, you wind up just where "they" want you?

    Some people have real disadvantages and unfortunate circumstances. For example someone may need medical coverage (themselves or loved ones) and the only way to get it is to use their best rested hours of the day to fight tooth and claw to stay in the corporate world, which for them is actually a positive saving grace, despite not being fully secure or fulfilling. Survival is still a challenge for most of the world.

    I think the rise of Patreon, Youtube, hell even competitive gaming at least shows the spirit of people wanting to break free of authority but it all feels like a bit of an illusion in that there is always a power structure involved, wether it be determined by specifIc individuals garnering control or simply the momentum of the masses. Those who surf the crest of a movement may seem like they were free and undeterred but really it seems they were simply primed and ready for a role in a movement that would have happened with or without them, with someone else simply being the figurehead of sorts. Is there ever any escape from power? It does seem more about harnessing or navigating the channels and dynamics of power to your advantage than avoiding them.

    With that I give you ‘The 48 Laws of Power’ by Robert Greene. Use them wisely. ;)

    http://www.rageuniversity.com/PRISONESCAPE/PRISON MENTAL HEALTH/psychologypower.pdf

  • @LinearLineman said:
    @greengrocer, there is no such thing as an "unbiased" view. With respect, your comments are biased because you think my authority, in this case, could shut you down without cause. Yet we all know, intuitively, what is civil and what is not. I think I have closed one thread (or 2?) in my tenure. As I say, you can have it if you like.

    As to AB being verboten to any type of non tech, non jovial subject. Well, some will think so and some will not with all the same attending reasons. I bring up this subject because people here are musicians and not just techies. Society does not often look favorably on the musical works of freethinkers. Lots of parents will convince their kids a better, more secure life awaits them in the "real" world. Well, is that really true, especially these days?

    I'm not talking about that there isn't something as an "unbiased" view. Classic strawman. I'm talking about the fact that you have a a certain biased view and everybody that follows this forum knows that. That people use discussion techniques (ie strawman arguments) to counter an argument can be seen as not civil. Besides that what does civil exactly mean? To point to intuition is pretty vague. Not everybody has the same kind of intuition.
    I'm here for info and talk about ios music and related subjects. And about moderation, not interested in special rights. However I do think that moderators and people with special mod rights should keep distance because they have a certain responsability and power. With keeping distance I mean ie not start discussions or enter discussions about sensitive subjects.

    As with 'verboten' of course we should not ban ideas, etc. But also don't forget not everybody here has thas the same kind of education, background, etc. which makes some subjects easily go inflammable. Which in the end will tear things apart.
    Again if your interested in putting things in a wider context there are better forums to do that. Or maybe even better why not open a specific forum that suits your needs to talk and discuss all the social political items you're interested in.

  • @audio_DT said:
    I think the issue is not authority per se but when a situation arises where one doesn’t recognise the legitimacy of an authority. For example, parental authority over a child is fine, since we must guide and author the child’s early days, to protect them and to provide an enabling environment in which they might flourish. But political authority is often not like that, especially when one has no trust in the authority to author the environment which structures and gives meaning to our lives. Given that there are many such authorities we deem illegitimate, we can never overcome our ‘problem with authority’. Ultimately, I think we can only work to unravel illegitimate authorities - but it’s wise, also, to recognise the ‘authority’ of some authorities, if you see what I mean? I, for example, recognise the musical authority of @LinearLineman, and would never seek to ‘overturn’ it or whatever. Listening to him and his music is good for me, and so I recognise the legitimacy in bestowing upon him the status of a ‘musical authority’ in relation to myself. When we don’t recognise an authority, though, the relation might well be one of domination. The starkest example of the latter would be political authoritarianism (an author of our lives, but one based on a relation of dominance and subordination). But this is a political post on a wonderfully politics-free forum. Apologies!

    You’ve raised lots of good points here. I fail to see how you can adequately discuss this issue without bringing public policy and specific details into it. Since these are closely associated with politics which we’ve been asked to avoid, I find such limited sterile discussions of very limited value to me. While I can appreciate why we’ve been asked to refrain from those sorts of topics due to numerous closed threads and banishments, I nevertheless believe it’s about as useful as talking about music without ever listening to anything.

    I would have preferred a decision which allowed more latitude for these sorts of discussions in the off-topic section of the forum so those who wished to discuss them could more fully engage while allowing others the freedom to decline to do so.

  • “It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society.” J Krishnamurti

  • @Paul16 said:
    “It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society.” J Krishnamurti

    Boom! Brevity Bomb!

  • To me, to respect someone as an authority, it means that they have to have profound knowledge in that what they are claiming to have authority over both through knowledge and action. Not one or the other.
    Authority means that you are in control of a particular thing and that it doesn't control you, however I feel the opposite is true for most of our governmental authorities for example.
    They are controlled by the very thing they claim to have control over... Having power, influence, social recognition is what feeds them rather than what authority is meant for, To be the Beacon on a certain thing and teach others the right way to understand it, Stewart it, have control over and ultimately use it to better society.
    This is why authority gets little respect these days imo. Authority is abused and rather than being leadership to steer things in the right directing, it becomes a control issue, a pride issue, and they don't want to become second best or old news so they tend to cling on to it to remain in power when really they should be using their authority to empower others and become a society of equals rather than a structure with a hierarchy that decides how others can behave.

    In the United States, self medication is one thing that the government thinks they are the authority over, they are the ones who decide whether a plant can be used by an individual or if they are going to ban it because their pharmaceutical industry knows best and decides how you are to medicate. Currently they are working hard to ban a plant (kratom) that has been used for thousands of years with many benefits to those who have discovered it, but it threatens the system they have in place and takes money and control from their pocket.
    One thing Kratom helps with is allowing people to deal with withdraw from several drugs, drugs they want to quit but wd makes it very hard... And it works very well, but it threatens the suboxne clinics and takes "Patients" away from them... How dare you find a way to help yourself, we have decided this is the way to deal with it.... That's the attitude, it's abuse of power and a total lack of real authority...
    Just one small example of why authority is not respected, those who claim to have it dont, what they have is power and control and the means to take away your rights and replace them with what they have decided is best for you

  • edited August 3

    @reasOne said:
    To me, to respect someone as an authority, it means that they have to have profound knowledge in that what they are claiming to have authority over both through knowledge and action. Not one or the other.
    Authority means that you are in control of a particular thing and that it doesn't control you, however I feel the opposite is true for most of our governmental authorities for example.
    They are controlled by the very thing they claim to have control over... Having power, influence, social recognition is what feeds them rather than what authority is meant for, To be the Beacon on a certain thing and teach others the right way to understand it, Stewart it, have control over and ultimately use it to better society.
    This is why authority gets little respect these days imo. Authority is abused and rather than being leadership to steer things in the right directing, it becomes a control issue, a pride issue, and they don't want to become second best or old news so they tend to cling on to it to remain in power when really they should be using their authority to empower others and become a society of equals rather than a structure with a hierarchy that decides how others can behave.

    In the United States, self medication is one thing that the government thinks they are the authority over, they are the ones who decide whether a plant can be used by an individual or if they are going to ban it because their pharmaceutical industry knows best and decides how you are to medicate. Currently they are working hard to ban a plant (kratom) that has been used for thousands of years with many benefits to those who have discovered it, but it threatens the system they have in place and takes money and control from their pocket.
    One thing Kratom helps with is allowing people to deal with withdraw from several drugs, drugs they want to quit but wd makes it very hard... And it works very well, but it threatens the suboxne clinics and takes "Patients" away from them... How dare you find a way to help yourself, we have decided this is the way to deal with it.... That's the attitude, it's abuse of power and a total lack of real authority...
    Just one small example of why authority is not respected, those who claim to have it dont, what they have is power and control and the means to take away your rights and replace them with what they have decided is best for you

    I used Kratom for several months following a surprise appendix surgery that was pretty rough. It worked great for me and helped a lot. I didn't feel any difficulties with it regarding habituation (others apparently have but that happens with just about anything). I was only a bit constipated, not a big deal. I did the research myself on it, which of course is anecdotal mostly, probably given that it is not pattentable etc. Anyway, yah it clearly seems like some authority simply wants to keep it down for the sake of business. The money spent researching it properly to give the public usage guidelines would be finite and valuable whereas spending money fighting it (really? forever?) is just a waste and known pointless path.

  • @audio_DT, thanks for the compliment, but I am about as far from a musical authority as you can get! All my musical solutions run afoul of the “authorities”, but thank you for enjoying my music even tho I haven’t a clue about it. Very good point about the legitimacy of authority, but, unfortunately, there is no legitimacy, IMO, to being a capable parent for a lot of folks. I mean you need a license to drive a car, but to be responsible for the care and potential of a helpless being? Wowee, a bit harder than a three point u-ey.

    @greengrocer , sorry, really not with you on this. “Everyone knows I have a certain biased opinion”. Can you not say that I just have an opinion and it is generally contrarian to the norm? Is it biased by my own thinking, info gathering and experience? Of course! And in that context there is no unbiased experience. I will tell you, however, that when one thinks talking about talking about a topic is more important than simply discussing it or not... that is a kind of exercise that gets old fast. It is off topic. There is no rigid rule as to what can be discussed. It is not overtly political and is not character specific. No one is losing their cool ( my def of civility) and folks have said some very interesting things about it already.

    In this particular case @greengrocer, you seem to have a bee in your bonnet. Not sure why, and I always respect and enjoy the stuff you have to say. So we just disagree here and I look forward to continuing amity between us. And I like this forum for philosophical discussion. There is a significant dearth of assholes and points of view are often surprising, usually well thought out and expressed in a compassionate or humorous way.. I have learned from what others have to say here,

    @InfoCheck ... I am not sure that it is necessary to “adequately” discuss anything here. I can talk about this as tho it was the Weimar Republic or the court of Xerxes, but I am talking about my own feelings and experiences and wondering about how others look at it. No historical or political specifics are really necessary for someone to express their feelings and experiences about their own personal relationship to authority... or just how much it consciously or unconsciously affects them. What is limited and sterile to you might be earth shattering to another. Just opt out. You don’t have to convince anyone you are right.

    @Paul16, beauty. I wish more folks knew about Krishnamurti... like how he was expected to assume the leadership of the whole ball of spiritual wax and upon his ascension day simply told his devotees he wanted nothing to do with it. Now there was an authority!

    @reasOne ... I refer you to the Peter Principle as to why most authority figures can’t cut it. Your points are well taken. I just wonder if there ever was a time when authority embraced the ideals you express. It seems human nature never changes... as in appsolute power corrupts appsolutely!

  • @LinearLineman said:
    appsolute power corrupts appsolutely!

    classic! ;)

  • I think a philosophical investigation of authority, might involve understanding the intended purpose(s) for why "someone", or "some group", desires to have some kind of control over other.... "persons", "people", "places" or "things".

    I think it's all about the intent.

    e.g...
    Is the intent for having the control based on "selfish desires", or "selfless desires"?
    Is the intent for having the control ethical, or unethical?

    So I think a philosophical exploration of authority, might resolve down to a philosophical exploration of the meaning of ethics.

    Are ethics only ideas about good and bad from a perspective relative to individual needs and wants?

    Or, is there such a thing as a set of universal ethics, that are relative to the needs and wants of all people?

    Then the degree to which any authority is ethical or not. Might hypothetically be found by comparing the effects of the existence of that authority, from a perspective of universal ethics.

    But since the world is a variable, and people and their perspectives are very diversified. There might be some conflict between the ethical values of different cultures.

    That might limit the idea of universal ethics down to just those things that can be equally held in value across all different cultures , at all different times.

    Then perhaps the "worthiness" of any authority to possess authority. Might be judged by whether that authority is has a foundation that is based in a set of ethics that are held equally in value across all different cultures , at all different times.

    I think it might be true that some "abusive authorities" certainly do pretend to justify their exist under some pretense of fulfilling some ethical purpose.

    But some abusive authorities are simply entities that rule over the lives of other through fear and intimidation. But perhaps in cases of that kind of authority, the ones with the authority might sometimes find ways to justify why they are entitled to possess authority over others.

    For some, I suppose, that justification could be as simple as being able to get away with it.

  • 1) isn’t this the Audiobus forum, a place to talk about AB and iOSMusic making?
    2) wasn’t there a general ban on political posts?
    3) if this is the case why has a mod started this thread?

  • @LinearLineman said:
    @audio_DT, thanks for the compliment, but I am about as far from a musical authority as you can get! All my musical solutions run afoul of the “authorities”, but thank you for enjoying my music even tho I haven’t a clue about it. Very good point about the legitimacy of authority, but, unfortunately, there is no legitimacy, IMO, to being a capable parent for a lot of folks. I mean you need a license to drive a car, but to be responsible for the care and potential of a helpless being? Wowee, a bit harder than a three point u-ey.

    Thanks. But authority is relative - you are an authority to me, though you may not be to even more authoritative others. That's all I meant. Authority is always and everywhere a relational phenomenon rather than an absolute one.

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