PSA: Don't update to iOS 12.4 if you use apps in AB output slot or IAA apps that use the mic.
https://forum.audiob.us/discussion/34030/urgent-psa-hold-off-updating-to-ios-12-4-if-you-use-apps-in-output-slot-in-audiobus

Some thoughts for the iOS ecosystem - Eventide and other Audio Companies

These are some of my thoughts that I posted up
on the Eventide UltraTap Delay thread.

It was suggested from there that I create a new thread.

First pertinent comment

"Right now the main iOS developers need our money.
Eventide have been around for a long time.
There are some awesome developers here that need that love.
Eventide built several machines over generations to sound
like some of the codes coming out from the iOS house."

The recent Spectrum apps are brilliant.

Kosmonaut???

Bleass??"

Second pertinent comment

"I hear you, my first thought was brilliant the iOS House
has finally got the interest of the big boys, especially
Eventide, as every producer knows they are a quality company.

My next thought was that Eventide
has been around for a long time,
there's no rush in buying their stuff.

My next thought was that the current iOS developers need
some serious investment to keep on going.

Eventide could create a scholarship fund or regular competition
to reinvest some of their profits back into the iOS scene.

Eventide earn £31,000,000 per year according to this link

https://www.owler.com/company/eventide

The iOS music house also needs to attract more Artists.

So for my part I can wait a couple of years to purchase Eventide
and I'll be supporting the current and new developers in the interim.

The current developers have made some classic apps."

The third pertinent comment

"Voting for the people who will gain from the financial investment
that Eventide or another major company could provide.

I mentioned it previously.
Scholarship, competitions etc.

Say a smaller developer would like to develop a new effect,
or assist in making a plugin transition from iOS 12 to iOS 13.

Some good developers have been hit by these transitions
and some of them are creating very interesting code.

Eventide with the revenue it attracts could reinvest back into the iOS Sphere.

It works mutually.

Eventide or another company or companies
will always have a client base,
the iOS developers will be able to create more apps
and the iOS artists, tech heads, musicians, nutters etc all benefit."

Gravitas

«1

Comments

  • edited July 18

    No.

    Super good news.

    Next.

  • If the product is good I will buy it. I don’t care who it is. It can be the big bad evil company that already has too much money..... perceived. Or some 1 man show. But I disagree with this respectfully.

  • edited July 18

    The thing is - non of this is charity. Eventide have done their years (and years) of investment and grind and indeed are very healthy if that is their revenue.

    You speak about "investment" - well I want Pagefall to be a full on sustainable company* with employees. I don't want investment - I've built investor driven companies, it has pro's and con's but investment is in many ways the enemy of creativity.

    I think that the best stuff are things like Ableton Loop where people can get exposure to development and ideas. I'm sure incubator type ideas could be worked on - but again investment means a return and a return means safe not seeing what flys

    I was really excited seeing both Fabfilter and Eventide joining the game. Because it will help bring in the bigger artists and the attention the platform needs - both to help raise app prices (a little bit would be nice) and to grow the market ( a lot would be nice in that regard) (I was also quite excited as a music maker because some excellent new tools too :-) )

    Buy Eventide apps - make it a success for them so they stay!

    *just to be clear - won't be iOS only but iOS will be important

  • @Gravitas : i think you overestimate the profitability of a company like Eventide and also the sort of revenue iOS music apps generate.

    It would not surprise me if these apps won't generate more revenue than they cost to make.

    You don't do small developers any favors by not buying the best app to fill a need.

    If a great app is from a "big" developer, and there isn't another app of comparable quality, snubbing it just sends the message that iOS users are hobbyists that don't care about quality and just care about cheapness.

    if the presence of these apps helps raise the bar and demonstrates that iOS users will pay for quality, it may help small developers charge prices that get them closer to earning a living from their iOS creations.

  • With more quality apps available, there will be more people who will want to use iOS and everyone will benefit from their investment in quality apps.

    If people think a developer is worth investing in, there are a number of ways they could do so. Expecting an individual or company to invest in a developer they don’t believe in would distort what people have available to them on iOS for music creation.

    If there are more specialized niche apps you’d like to have, be prepared to invest in them in order for them to become available. If you expect other people or companies to do this for you, you may be disappointed. While a particular app concept might appeal to you, it’s useful not to confuse this enthusiasm with whether or not a significant number of people share your interests, how difficult it would be to create such an app, and the economic viability of such a project.

  • Such limited conversation on actual music making any more.......so much about money and developers....profits..scholarships..blah blah blah.

    I love hearing about people making music and how they do it.

    I hate politics.

    Most people don't understand economics.

    And the rest is just dribble.

    I feel like so many people have little or no understanding on how to run a business or what it entails.

    Some of this ignorance leads to over support of developers.

    Some ignorance leads to over upset customers.

    Either way these discussions are not helpful as a whole for me and using the forum as a creative resource conversation location.

  • No one 'needs' our money, it's the hard work 'earns' it from us!
    It's not like we're running a 'iOS Music App Developer Charity' here.

    If we buy apps like mindless zombies regardless of how good or useful they are just because a developer has built up a reputation we're 'manipulating the market' and what will happen if a developer expects all their apps to be bought and suddenly that doesn't happen? Boom...

  • edited July 18

    Eventide are a great company, their stuff has been used by Hendrix, Led Zeppelin, Prince, Bowie just to name a few.
    They are not a huge corporation and not new to iOS either, H9 control app was released in May 2013 and is still regularly updated.
    Also they sponsor a lot of music related stuff, women's audio mission etc

    "Agnello is almost infuriatingly humble about his own achievements and the role that Eventide have played in pushing forward digital audio. At every point in our conversation he’s keen to play down his own involvement and praise the efforts of those around him. In a rare moment of pride, he allows himself just one moment to reminisce about how difficult it was to develop the company’s groundbreaking products back in the early 70s: “There were no computers for laying out schematics or printed circuit boards. That didn’t exist in our world. Schematics were drawn by hand and circuit boards used mylar tape and single-edged razor blades. I laid out the 910 circuit boards at night in the bedroom of my apartment in Greenpoint, Brooklyn.

    “I like to say that I did simple things and I was fortunate. I was in the right place at the right time. But it wasn’t easy.”

    https://www.attackmagazine.com/features/long-read/untold-history-eventide-and-the-digital-revolution/

    Please reserve your scorn for a more deserving cause!

  • @gravitas, I agree we should spend our money to improve the community of IOS music makers.
    Helping Eventide break even and generate a profit helps us all. Quality products from sustainable
    businesses that won't disappear if one person gives up is "risk management" for the users.

    FabFilter, Eventide, Korg, and Propellerheads will bring new applications from the world of
    Desktops and fixed-purpose hardware to the Apple Store. Some may cost a lot more than we expect
    to pay but at least we'll have these quality options to use for our creations. I love to see Nord consider re-purposing some of their software assets on IOS for example as a way to sell more keyboards.

    You know they discuss the option at Ableton periodically and proof of success by larger companies help
    show we value sound and features above cost. Some of us do don't we? Some buy the pro gear, right?

  • Welcome once again to the forum @Gravitas! At least you didn’t use a clickbait title, so you can’t be all bad.

  • in fact it was a quite revealing topic, at least regarding that link below...

    @Gravitas said:

    Eventide could create a scholarship fund or regular competition
    to reinvest some of their profits back into the iOS scene.

    Eventide earn £31,000,000 per year according to this link

    https://www.owler.com/company/eventide

    It states that Strymon is considered Eventide's main competitor - which puts us into guitar pedal territory, not studio gear, from which their reputation originates ;)

    Eventide's 19" units continue to work as ever, generating almost zero revenues.
    They made a couple of attempts to re-market their algorithms in desktop versions.
    Imho not very succesful - years ago I ran the famous 2016 Stereo Room against Valhalla Room and failed miserably... as I (really) wanted to like the 2016 better, but just didn't find an advantage.
    They sell a lot based on fame of the past, Blackhole originally was a preset (in a 19" unit), which they successfully turned into a whole product.
    Afaik they outsourced most developement tasks in earlier years.

    Imho Eventide is into heavy competition today and bets on cross sales triggered via a low IOS entry fee. An iPad plus interface is more expensive than one of their pedals, and more difficult to handle in stage situations.
    Dunno their economic figures, but I wouldn't overestimate their financial capabilities.

  • I’m not sure what’s wrong with supporting the “big guys “, after all the reason they are still around is that they have top notch tools and good support.

    @OnfraySin said:
    No.

    Super good news.

    Next.

    My thoughts exactly.

  • @RUST( i )K said:
    Such limited conversation on actual music making any more.......so much about money and developers....profits..scholarships..blah blah blah.

    I love hearing about people making music and how they do it.

    I hate politics.

    Most people don't understand economics.

    And the rest is just dribble.

    I feel like so many people have little or no understanding on how to run a business or what it entails.

    Some of this ignorance leads to over support of developers.

    Some ignorance leads to over upset customers.

    Either way these discussions are not helpful as a whole for me and using the forum as a creative resource conversation location.

    This post is direct, to the point, and I like it.

    To paraphrase my initial response to the first comment posted in this thread (and I'm surprised OP actually made it a thread after the response he got in the ultra-tap delay convo), why the hell shouldn't I buy a Prince album over my local indie band if I enjoy Prince 100x more than I ever could someone who 'needs' my money?

    With this mentality, I should just give all my money to panhandlers who may or may not 'honestly' need my money and get nothing out of it versus buying goods and services that increase my happiness.

    This is just a shitty idea. It doesn't coincide with reality and it isn't even rational idealism.

  • @oat_phipps said:

    @RUST( i )K said:
    Such limited conversation on actual music making any more.......so much about money and developers....profits..scholarships..blah blah blah.

    I love hearing about people making music and how they do it.

    I hate politics.

    Most people don't understand economics.

    And the rest is just dribble.

    I feel like so many people have little or no understanding on how to run a business or what it entails.

    Some of this ignorance leads to over support of developers.

    Some ignorance leads to over upset customers.

    Either way these discussions are not helpful as a whole for me and using the forum as a creative resource conversation location.

    This post is direct, to the point, and I like it.

    To paraphrase my initial response to the first comment posted in this thread (and I'm surprised OP actually made it a thread after the response he got in the ultra-tap delay convo), why the hell shouldn't I buy a Prince album over my local indie band if I enjoy Prince 100x more than I ever could someone who 'needs' my money?

    With this mentality, I should just give all my money to panhandlers who may or may not 'honestly' need my money and get nothing out of it versus buying goods and services that increase my happiness.

    This is just a shitty idea. It doesn't coincide with reality and it isn't even rational idealism.

    I get what you are saying, but for me if I have to choose between Corporate and Independent, I will nearly always go with Indie.
    Lingering Punk scene Idealism, I suppose.

  • «Ich liebe euch alle» to quote the head of STASI erich mielke

    Enough politics? @LinearLineman @RUST( i )K @McD I
    However: There’re politics through all our music history, from the earliest verses of the renaissance was sung, to Mozart’s Singspiel with German words upsetting the emperor yet pleasing the public, Beethoven’s Eroica, 1812 symphony, twelve tone music, blues, New Orleans jazz vs Dixieland, rock vs anti-rock, little Richard vs pat boone. Hendrix is sometimes bombing Vietnam with his guitar. Zappa against Tipper Gore... where do I stop? In many cases politics is a very influential force on the music we make, or else we would go to concert in an elevator...

  • @RUST( i )K said:
    Such limited conversation on actual music making any more.......so much about money and developers....profits..scholarships..blah blah blah.

    I love hearing about people making music and how they do it.

    I hate politics.

    Most people don't understand economics.

    And the rest is just dribble.

    I feel like so many people have little or no understanding on how to run a business or what it entails.

    Some of this ignorance leads to over support of developers.

    Some ignorance leads to over upset customers.

    Either way these discussions are not helpful as a whole for me and using the forum as a creative resource conversation location.

    Eloquently put sir✊

  • What a silly thread all about "deserving" money ...
    A blinkered (and very worrying) way to look at the world...
    good app - buy
    bad app - no buy

  • The user and all related content has been deleted.
  • Eventide earn £31,000,000 per year according to this link

    https://www.owler.com/company/eventide

    For the umpteenth time: revenues are not profits. Far from it. Eventide has 60 employees as per your link. I’d be pleasantly surprised if they even turn a profit.

    So, yes, they ‘earn’ 31m p.a. But they also spend 31m, or close to it.

  • edited July 19
    The user and all related content has been deleted.
  • I don’t get why people think the onus should be on Eventide (or any other company who decides to join iOS), to support indie devs.
    They’re successful on desktop because their products are top quality, because they’ve been in the business for years and know their market and customers.
    Maybe Apple need to look at their slice of indie devs profits if things are to survive and continue to improve in this environment.
    Again, if the product is good, and I have a genuine interest in it, I’ll buy it. End of.

  • The better middle ground is likely for the big guys to hire some of these indie developers to help develop apps, or buy them out if there really is something good in there. I completely like the idea of supporting indie developers, and I've bought most of the apps out there. Problem is, the financial requirements for many of these guy is far beyond the scope of our community. How many times do these apps end up just being abandoned? For that reason, I'm glad we're getting big names in the game. The reality is, the future of iOS music making will not likely be maintained by small devs on just iOS. Most likely as things smooth out, you'll have to be a reasonably sized group that can handle developing and maintaining software that will work on MacOS, iOS, and iPadOS in order to be relevant, and stable.

    Eventide should not burden the weight of the rest of the industry. Indies developers should either look for positions with these larger companies, or band together with other devs to make a new company. theres no other way to beat goliath here.

  • edited July 19

    Eventide should not burden the weight of the rest of the industry. Indies developers should either look for positions with these larger companies, or band together with other devs to make a new company. theres no other way to beat goliath here.

    "beat Goliath" - none of us are trying to "win". This isn't a zero sum game. One of the things that I really like about the music equipment market place is that it is so lively and there is so much creativity in it. We all have our constraints - can I go out and do a mass production run of hardware? no but on the other hand I can make a polyrhythmic arpeggiator that might sell only a couple of thousand copies. Can Eventide do that? no - their board would be screaming and shouting if they wasted their time on low sales efforts. Look at all the boutique pedal manufacturers thriving despite the bigger manufacturers.

    it is HEALTHY for a market place to have big fish and little fish.

    Why are there lots of abandoned apps? because the barriers to entry are pretty low - anyone who can code a bit can have a go. Which is bloody brilliant. However sustaining the work and making income does require business and marketing skills etc - harder to come by and turn out to be hard (& for me certainly kind of dull) work. Same reason no doubt that most restaurants end up going bust - the step between "I love cooking and making food for people" to "bloody hell this is hard work and you have to pay an awful lot of attention to costs and be an employer" can be a killer

    I appreciate people are bored of business talk but seriously - the more players the better. Us little developers don't and shouldn't need "charity" - we need to learn to run our own businesses. (and I'm pretty sure it's fair to say a lot of app developers don't even view it as a business - they just want to make some cool software and maybe earn a bit of pocket money)

  • @pagefall
    I like your perspective on this.
    And I like your apps.
    If you keep making them, I will keep on buying and enjoying them.

  • I, personally, like these types of discussions. @pagefall’s comments re big fish and little fish swimming around together applies to this forum as well, IMO. Room to discuss anything pertaining to music and iOS and business and Apple and even the human condition. Just so long as it is proportionate to the mission of this forum and civil. As to the last, I am continuingly impressed by people’s restraint and willingness to hear others out as well as shake off dust ups.

  • @LinearLineman

    Thank you for the warm welcome and to the rest of you guys.

  • I can see the point by @RUST( i )K and respect it but ATM I feel everything is politics. From the moment we are buying we are doing the most revolutionary politic act.

    So take responsibility is part of the issue.

    Said that we are using iOS devices... if we are asking MegaCorps for scholarships Apple should be our main target, not Eventide or similar.

    Target the gardener not the flowers.

    IMHO I decided to use iOS devices due its bangxbuck ratio but as days gone I feel more and more entitled to dedicated hardware and my iDevices are getting used just for regular tasks and very very few musical apps. I'm not into AUv3 thing and I will not in the future probably (due I have all I need related to that side of the workflow). Also my Apple stuff is outdated on purpose and I try to avoid high dependency on them as healthy approach to music (but I'm failing with Garageband/Logic).

    In the end each buy act is political as the video above explains and probably the only true strength we still have. So decide what, how much and why but keep it up to you far from it's something personal (like voting but with our pockets).

    If we are not to make politics then we can't tell people what to do with its money... or almost, if we do it after that, let them choose by themselves. It's inner revolution more than outter.

  • Both large and smaller developers make great apps and I’ll buy both. If a developer is making awesome apps and I have a use for it in my studio, I’m probably going to get it. The Bram Bos, FAC, Beepstreet, etc developers have all put themselves up there with the big developers in the instabuy category for me. Big developers coming into the game isn’t going to stop me from getting the indie stuff too.

  • edited July 19

    @TheDubbyLabby said:
    I can see the point by @RUST( i )K and respect it but ATM I feel everything is politics. From the moment we are buying we are doing the most revolutionary politic act.

    That video is both inspiring and easy to make fun of. I fear that the ingrained consumerism of the USA is easily manipulated by corporations. It's why you had jackasses proudly buying Hummers to own the libs.
    I don't know what the solution is. It's weird how protection of the environment and being stewards of our common spaces — conservation, by definition, is a conservative aim — have been ridiculed as left policies.

  • @CracklePot said:

    @oat_phipps said:

    @RUST( i )K said:
    Such limited conversation on actual music making any more.......so much about money and developers....profits..scholarships..blah blah blah.

    I love hearing about people making music and how they do it.

    I hate politics.

    Most people don't understand economics.

    And the rest is just dribble.

    I feel like so many people have little or no understanding on how to run a business or what it entails.

    Some of this ignorance leads to over support of developers.

    Some ignorance leads to over upset customers.

    Either way these discussions are not helpful as a whole for me and using the forum as a creative resource conversation location.

    This post is direct, to the point, and I like it.

    To paraphrase my initial response to the first comment posted in this thread (and I'm surprised OP actually made it a thread after the response he got in the ultra-tap delay convo), why the hell shouldn't I buy a Prince album over my local indie band if I enjoy Prince 100x more than I ever could someone who 'needs' my money?

    With this mentality, I should just give all my money to panhandlers who may or may not 'honestly' need my money and get nothing out of it versus buying goods and services that increase my happiness.

    This is just a shitty idea. It doesn't coincide with reality and it isn't even rational idealism.

    I get what you are saying, but for me if I have to choose between Corporate and Independent, I will nearly always go with Indie.
    Lingering Punk scene Idealism, I suppose.

    Thanks @RUST( i )K for having the sense and nerve to post this.
    There is room for everyone....some will buy indie, some will buy corporate, some will buy both...absolutley no problem with that.
    What I don't get is people asking ask to buy apps just to support a developer, it seems to those people the actual app does not matter at all. Surely that is disconcerting for a developer, whoever they are. I'm pretty sure where they may welcome all income, they'd prefer to be getting it on merit and not out of pity.

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