Velocity Keyboard by Ngo Minh Ngoc

UrbanNinja

@Blue_Mangoo said:

@UrbanNinja said:
Question and feature request...

In many ways this interface is more evolved compared to earlier interfaces like MPE pioneer Rob Fielding's Cantor, Mugician, and GeoSynth (coded with Fielding's help), etc., but there is one thing I find more lacking -sorely lacking- expression-wise in nor only both VelocityKB and the GeoShred AUV3 MIDI as currently configured but also Linnstrument (which has three preset force to pitch settings) compared to those earlier apps...

Rob Fielding's original obsession was MICROTONES -i.e. "notes between notes" of the typical Western scale, and the ability -if/when desired, to hover infinitely on microtones between shall we say "typical Western pitches" as long as desired (e.g. in GeoSynth this was achieved by setting a "snap" control always visible just above the playing surface in a continuous range between zero and infinity; the latter would instantly force a note to pitch (no pitch bends) whereas the former would NEVER force a note to pitch, enabling, when desired, hovering on a "non-standard" microtone.

This is very useful for what amounts to INCREDIBLE/IDEAL EXPRESSIVENESS in a wide variety of musical genres. E.g. from the Wikipedia article Blue Note:
"In jazz and blues, a blue note is a note that—for expressive purposes—is sung or played at a slightly different pitch than standard. Typically the alteration is between a quartertone and a semitone, but this varies among performers and genres. Blue notes may be marked by a glissando or trill."

This is also very often used lots of Eastern genres, e.g. (shall we say) "Zen-style" flute playing to traditional Indian music, traditional Middle Eastern music and beyond.

I still find myself opening GeoSynthesizer and Cantor to accomplish this, but if VelocityKB could do something to allow it (some suggested ways: (1) a toggle or press and hold button on the top that momentarily defeats the force to pitch algorithm, or (2) a continuous Snap control as in GeoSynthesizer, or (3) an extra pitch bend strip or rectangle at the top which when pressed takes over the slide wherever the note happens to be at the current moment and moves it without ever forcing a note to pitch when it is being pressed.

The force to pitch algorithm is actually a lifesaver MOST OF THE TIME as without it your notes are not going to be in tune. Different instruments and genres to be played correctly require such performance to differ sometimes (hence Linnstruments alternate settings -and admittedly VelocityKB's algorithm is pretty good to a point at tracking a range of "bending" speeds. BUT SOMETIMES it outright kills the possibility of playing "the music in your head" and/or multiple forms of traditional genres ancient and modern from India to the Mediterranean to Blues and Fusion and beyond.

I hope others find this capacity as crucial as I and MPE pioneer Rob Fielding did/does and that some developer -maybe Blue Mangoo- can restore this once common essential function in a future update. Thanks again for a great product!

On Linnstrument, does “force to pitch” control the way the pitch is corrected to keep it playing in tune?

I think the way to do what you want is to add a switch that allows you to turn off the pitch correction entirely. We could do that.

Unless you set the key size quite large, it would take considerable discipline to learn to play in tune like that, but violinists have been doing it for centuries, so I believe there are users out there who can do it.

Yep, a toggle switch, like your SUS control at the top, would absolutely do the trick.

"It would take considerable discipline"
Actually it doesn't take much discipline -if you can toggle the function on and off during performance.
I get very satisfying -results in GeoSynthesizer just moving the snap control to zero momentarily as I play, and then back to the right when I want to the notes to play in tune.

"Linnstrument"
Has three different algorithms the user can select; Jordan Rudess helped Roger program how long in milliseconds before the note goes to nearest pitch. It is very unsatisfying, though, not to be able to turn it off altogether and back on while performing on the fly as you can in GeoSynth (Snap control).

@Blue_Mangoo said:
@UrbanNinja We tested a new layout today that we are calling “Strings - Free pitch”. It’s similar to the strings layout except that it has absolutely no pitch correction. I was expecting it would be difficult to use but I was pleasantly surprised to find its not so hard. If you can handle a fretless Bass then I think you will like it. We expect this feature to be out on the App Store in a day or two.

Just saw this second reply and updated the app --fantastic, but again I hope you can place some sort of toggle like your SUS toggle on the top so we can turn this on/off during the actual performance. E.g. you could have a button named "FRETLESS" (or something).

Otherwise, if it's buried in Settings (as currently configured), during a given performance we are either having notes out of tune when we want them to be in tune, or having them prematurely go in tune when we want slow bends or microtones without being able to have the best of both worlds instantly whenever we need it.

When e.g. I set the Snap to GeoSynth to zero, that is doable on the header while the user is performing, so we can tap it back to a more "normal" setting when we want notes to go to pitch, which the way I use it is more often during a given performance, but just not always in the course of any single performance.

THANKS for the quick response -very exited about this, and other than the lack of the ability to toggle back and forth during a single performance both "modes" have the PERFECT feel /amazing!!! Everything I was hoping for!! (except the toggle )

audiobussy

Funny behavior rolling off the right side of the interface… Get really low Midi notes

espiegel123

@Blue_Mangoo : it would be most excellent if Velocity Keyboard had an isomorphic layout. If you aren't familiar with isomorphic keyboards, here is an example of one:

https://www.synthtopia.com/content/2010/10/01/4-99-app-turns-ipad-into-an-isomorphic-hexagonal-keyboard-synthesizer/

Blue_Mangoo

@audiobussy said:
Funny behavior rolling off the right side of the interface… Get really low Midi notes

Which layout are you using?

Blue_Mangoo

@espiegel123 said:
@Blue_Mangoo : it would be most excellent if Velocity Keyboard had an isomorphic layout. If you aren't familiar with isomorphic keyboards, here is an example of one:

https://www.synthtopia.com/content/2010/10/01/4-99-app-turns-ipad-into-an-isomorphic-hexagonal-keyboard-synthesizer/

Do you have any videos that show this type of layout in use? We considered adding it when we first designed the app but decided against it because we doubted that it would be useful to anyone except the accordion players.

espiegel123

@Blue_Mangoo said:

@espiegel123 said:
@Blue_Mangoo : it would be most excellent if Velocity Keyboard had an isomorphic layout. If you aren't familiar with isomorphic keyboards, here is an example of one:

https://www.synthtopia.com/content/2010/10/01/4-99-app-turns-ipad-into-an-isomorphic-hexagonal-keyboard-synthesizer/

Do you have any videos that show this type of layout in use? We considered adding it when we first designed the app but decided against it because we doubted that it would be useful to anyone except the accordion players.

I'll track some down and try to post some links tomorrow. About a year or so ago, I happened upon one (a demo of an iPad app) that was very cool and then I got MIDI Designer Pro and have enjoyed using one that was implemented in MDP -- but would much prefer using a Velocity version.

Blue_Mangoo

@espiegel123 said:

@Blue_Mangoo said:

@espiegel123 said:
@Blue_Mangoo : it would be most excellent if Velocity Keyboard had an isomorphic layout. If you aren't familiar with isomorphic keyboards, here is an example of one:

https://www.synthtopia.com/content/2010/10/01/4-99-app-turns-ipad-into-an-isomorphic-hexagonal-keyboard-synthesizer/

Do you have any videos that show this type of layout in use? We considered adding it when we first designed the app but decided against it because we doubted that it would be useful to anyone except the accordion players.

I'll track some down and try to post some links tomorrow. About a year or so ago, I happened upon one (a demo of an iPad app) that was very cool and then I got MIDI Designer Pro and have enjoyed using one that was implemented in MDP -- but would much prefer using a Velocity version.

If you could just point someone’s phone at the screen for 1 minute while you are playing MDP and record a video, I would be interested to see it.

We are getting to the point where I think Velocity Keyboard has enough complexity that I want to be cautious about adding more features. But we are always interested in learning about what people are doing musically on iOS because we want more ideas for future apps. We have already started working on a new app that will make use of some of the suggestions we received from Velocity Keyboard users.

[Deleted User]

example of groovy iOS midi keyboard @5:48. @Blue_Mangoo will surely top it.

Blue_Mangoo

@WillieNegus said:

example of groovy iOS midi keyboard @5:48. @Blue_Mangoo will surely top it.

Impressive. He clearly knows his musical harmony theory well.

I’m still not quite able to wrap my head around why he was motivated to learn to play on that interface. It’s not that there’s anything wrong with the layout; it’s just so unlike all the instruments I am familiar and comfortable with (piano, Guitar, violin), when I look at it I feel like I am reading a foreign language.

[Deleted User]

@Blue_Mangoo said:

@WillieNegus said:

example of groovy iOS midi keyboard @5:48. @Blue_Mangoo will surely top it.

Impressive. He clearly knows his musical harmony theory well.

I’m still not quite able to wrap my head around why he was motivated to learn to play on that interface. It’s not that there’s anything wrong with the layout; it’s just so unlike all the instruments I am familiar and comfortable with (piano, Guitar, violin), when I look at it I feel like I am reading a foreign language.

Your app is pretty sick as is. No new features necessary. If you didn’t intend for it to be the ultimate Swiss Army knife of all keyboard layouts I wouldn’t worry about adding iso.

However, I do like using iso or hex layouts. The harmonic relationship between keys effects how one creates/plays certain patterns. Also, playing chords with one finger by touching the intersection of 3 hexagons is an optimal playing style. Add to that mpe and you have something unique to any platform or instrument I’m aware of.

espiegel123

@Blue_Mangoo : linnstrument snd launchpad Pro and a number of other recent controllers have implemented ISO layouts because they have an intuitive feel and I find personally that they help me break away from the keyboard and guitar pattern traps my tiny brain has become conditioned to. Jordan Rudess put them on my radar.

Anyway, if it isn't a pain to implement it would be a nice addition. But if it is a pain, there are probably better ways for you to spend your time.

oddSTAR

Would it be possible to add one or two long sliders or something on the side to control filter cutoff or aftertouch or whatever? I guess I'm saying MIDI cc assignable zones. I envision long rectangles maybe half the width of your squares but covering the full height of the window. It could happen within the keys like Animoog does when you slide up or down while playing. This doesn't currently do that, right? I like the squares a lot but they don't seem tall enough to control something like that very effectively. Just an idea, but please correct me if I'm missing something that's already there.

auxmux

@Blue_Mangoo Creating AUM presets either by scale or mode isn't working. The last setup in settings is what displays regardless in what state presets were saved.

Blue_Mangoo

@nondes said:
@Blue_Mangoo Creating AUM presets either by scale or mode isn't working. The last setup in settings is what displays regardless in what state presets were saved.

We will check on this and fix it. Thank you for reporting

Blue_Mangoo

@oddSTAR said:
Would it be possible to add one or two long sliders or something on the side to control filter cutoff or aftertouch or whatever? I guess I'm saying MIDI cc assignable zones. I envision long rectangles maybe half the width of your squares but covering the full height of the window. It could happen within the keys like Animoog does when you slide up or down while playing. This doesn't currently do that, right? I like the squares a lot but they don't seem tall enough to control something like that very effectively. Just an idea, but please correct me if I'm missing something that's already there.

It’s a good idea. At this point Velocity Keyboard seems to have an appropriate level of complexity so we are going to be very cautious about adding new features. However, this isn’t our last app, so I am still very interested to hear this type of suggestion.

Blue_Mangoo

@WillieNegus thank you. We are working on another app right now, and that new project really needs to have a more unique layout. So we are seriously considering this.

@espiegel123 Could you tell me more about these isomorphic layouts on Linnstrument? Initially, i thought you were using the term “isomorphic” to refer to that hexagonal shape layout. But Linnstrument is, of course, always a rectangular grid, so that hexagonal design would be unavailable.

Several years ago I spoke with the developer of Musix and from that conversation I had the impression that the term “isomorphic layout” referred to any layout where the geometric shape of a Major triad (or any other chord) would be the same regardless of which key we transpose it to. So, for example, the fourths, fifths, and major thirds tunings in Velocity Keyboard are isomorphic layouts, but the guitar tuning is not isomorphic because the major third interval between the g and b strings breaks the isomorphism.

espiegel123

@Blue_Mangoo said:
@WillieNegus thank you. We are working on another app right now, and that new project really needs to have a more unique layout. So we are seriously considering this.

@espiegel123 Could you tell me more about these isomorphic layouts on Linnstrument? Initially, i thought you were using the term “isomorphic” to refer to that hexagonal shape layout. But Linnstrument is, of course, always a rectangular grid, so that hexagonal design would be unavailable.

Several years ago I spoke with the developer of Musix and from that conversation I had the impression that the term “isomorphic layout” referred to any layout where the geometric shape of a Major triad (or any other chord) would be the same regardless of which key we transpose it to. So, for example, the fourths, fifths, and major thirds tunings in Velocity Keyboard are isomorphic layouts, but the guitar tuning is not isomorphic because the major third interval between the g and b strings breaks the isomorphism.

Arggh! You are right. Somehow because I have been switching between guitar and keyboard layouts, I overlooked the other options -- which are indeed isomorphic.

Sorry that I didn't notice that earlier.

Btw, it seems like one needs to use Velocity in drum mode to take full advantage of that since in the other modes you can only play one key per row. I guess that makes sense. But it took me a little while to realize that was the way to play enable chord clusters. It would be nice if scale mode had an option to have multiple notes per row.

Blue_Mangoo

@espiegel123 said:

Btw, it seems like one needs to use Velocity in drum mode to take full advantage of that since in the other modes you can only play one key per row. I guess that makes sense. But it took me a little while to realize that was the way to play enable chord clusters. It would be nice if scale mode had an option to have multiple notes per row.

Please try changing the MIDI format setting from MPE-4 to MPE-3. It will allow more than one note per string.

espiegel123

@Blue_Mangoo said:

@espiegel123 said:

Btw, it seems like one needs to use Velocity in drum mode to take full advantage of that since in the other modes you can only play one key per row. I guess that makes sense. But it took me a little while to realize that was the way to play enable chord clusters. It would be nice if scale mode had an option to have multiple notes per row.

Please try changing the MIDI format setting from MPE-4 to MPE-3. It will allow more than one note per string.

Is it ok to use the MPE settings when playing a non-MPE synth? I was trying with single channel polyphonic.

Blue_Mangoo

@espiegel123 said:

@Blue_Mangoo said:

@espiegel123 said:

Btw, it seems like one needs to use Velocity in drum mode to take full advantage of that since in the other modes you can only play one key per row. I guess that makes sense. But it took me a little while to realize that was the way to play enable chord clusters. It would be nice if scale mode had an option to have multiple notes per row.

Please try changing the MIDI format setting from MPE-4 to MPE-3. It will allow more than one note per string.

Is it ok to use the MPE settings when playing a non-MPE synth? I was trying with single channel polyphonic.

MPE still works on some synths that don’t advertise themselves as being MPE compatible. But in general, no.

The code that controls the MIDI output for Velocity Keyboard single channel modes is very complicated because we have difficulty making this kind of interface work over a single MIDI channel. In comparison, the MPE code is trivially simple. We are avoiding making the Single channel modes have too many features because in the past when we designed more complex single channel MIDI output, it reached a point where we would look at something we wrote one or two years back and we couldn’t understand our own code. The result was that when we fixed a bug, we would end up breaking other features. MPE makes all that mess go away. So we are just hoping that it continues to grow in popularity and be supported by more developers.

espiegel123

@Blue_Mangoo said:

@espiegel123 said:

@Blue_Mangoo said:

@espiegel123 said:

Btw, it seems like one needs to use Velocity in drum mode to take full advantage of that since in the other modes you can only play one key per row. I guess that makes sense. But it took me a little while to realize that was the way to play enable chord clusters. It would be nice if scale mode had an option to have multiple notes per row.

Please try changing the MIDI format setting from MPE-4 to MPE-3. It will allow more than one note per string.

Is it ok to use the MPE settings when playing a non-MPE synth? I was trying with single channel polyphonic.

MPE still works on some synths that don’t advertise themselves as being MPE compatible. But in general, no.

The code that controls the MIDI output for Velocity Keyboard single channel modes is very complicated because we have difficulty making this kind of interface work over a single MIDI channel. In comparison, the MPE code is trivially simple. We are avoiding making the Single channel modes have too many features because in the past when we designed more complex single channel MIDI output, it reached a point where we would look at something we wrote one or two years back and we couldn’t understand our own code. The result was that when we fixed a bug, we would end up breaking other features. MPE makes all that mess go away. So we are just hoping that it continues to grow in popularity and be supported by more developers.

I see. Well, if an option for multiple notes per row were possible in non-MPE mode that would be great. As I write, I am realizing that using the MPE workaround will probably result in some strange behavior in some MIDI recording software.

SevenSystems

Deleted

Alfred

Hi Blue Mangoo,

I realy like this app, mainly to play the roli noise app on my iPad.

Just got a 6s+ iPhone to play with the force touch, and I noticed considerable heat developing that I never noticed on my se iPhone or the iPad.
Might this have something to do with the frequency of sampling the force touch data?
When playing the noise app internal keyboard on the 6s+ it warms up too, but when not playing it does not get that hot.

Blue_Mangoo

@espiegel123 said:

@Blue_Mangoo said:

@espiegel123 said:

@Blue_Mangoo said:

@espiegel123 said:

Btw, it seems like one needs to use Velocity in drum mode to take full advantage of that since in the other modes you can only play one key per row. I guess that makes sense. But it took me a little while to realize that was the way to play enable chord clusters. It would be nice if scale mode had an option to have multiple notes per row.

Please try changing the MIDI format setting from MPE-4 to MPE-3. It will allow more than one note per string.

Is it ok to use the MPE settings when playing a non-MPE synth? I was trying with single channel polyphonic.

MPE still works on some synths that don’t advertise themselves as being MPE compatible. But in general, no.

The code that controls the MIDI output for Velocity Keyboard single channel modes is very complicated because we have difficulty making this kind of interface work over a single MIDI channel. In comparison, the MPE code is trivially simple. We are avoiding making the Single channel modes have too many features because in the past when we designed more complex single channel MIDI output, it reached a point where we would look at something we wrote one or two years back and we couldn’t understand our own code. The result was that when we fixed a bug, we would end up breaking other features. MPE makes all that mess go away. So we are just hoping that it continues to grow in popularity and be supported by more developers.

I see. Well, if an option for multiple notes per row were possible in non-MPE mode that would be great. As I write, I am realizing that using the MPE workaround will probably result in some strange behavior in some MIDI recording software.

We are working on doing that for the scale layout. I believe the drum pads have it already. I'm not planning it for the strings layouts, because that isn't a very string-like thing to do.

Blue_Mangoo

@Alfred said:
Hi Blue Mangoo,

I realy like this app, mainly to play the roli noise app on my iPad.

Just got a 6s+ iPhone to play with the force touch, and I noticed considerable heat developing that I never noticed on my se iPhone or the iPad.
Might this have something to do with the frequency of sampling the force touch data?
When playing the noise app internal keyboard on the 6s+ it warms up too, but when not playing it does not get that hot.

Hm... I don't know. I use a 6s myself. I'll check to see if it's overheating or not; I haven't noticed it before.

I don't think the force touch would cause it to overheat but anything is possible until we have tested and ruled it out. I think it's more likely that the heat problem is caused by the synth that does the Audio processing (MIDI processing is usually quite lightweight), and that you are noticing it now because when you use velocity keyboard you are holding the phone tightly in your hand to play it as opposed to triggering the notes via a sequencer or external MIDI controller. But that could be totally wrong; just a guess.

espiegel123

@Blue_Mangoo said:

@espiegel123 said:

@Blue_Mangoo said:

@espiegel123 said:

@Blue_Mangoo said:

@espiegel123 said:

Btw, it seems like one needs to use Velocity in drum mode to take full advantage of that since in the other modes you can only play one key per row. I guess that makes sense. But it took me a little while to realize that was the way to play enable chord clusters. It would be nice if scale mode had an option to have multiple notes per row.

Please try changing the MIDI format setting from MPE-4 to MPE-3. It will allow more than one note per string.

Is it ok to use the MPE settings when playing a non-MPE synth? I was trying with single channel polyphonic.

MPE still works on some synths that don’t advertise themselves as being MPE compatible. But in general, no.

The code that controls the MIDI output for Velocity Keyboard single channel modes is very complicated because we have difficulty making this kind of interface work over a single MIDI channel. In comparison, the MPE code is trivially simple. We are avoiding making the Single channel modes have too many features because in the past when we designed more complex single channel MIDI output, it reached a point where we would look at something we wrote one or two years back and we couldn’t understand our own code. The result was that when we fixed a bug, we would end up breaking other features. MPE makes all that mess go away. So we are just hoping that it continues to grow in popularity and be supported by more developers.

I see. Well, if an option for multiple notes per row were possible in non-MPE mode that would be great. As I write, I am realizing that using the MPE workaround will probably result in some strange behavior in some MIDI recording software.

We are working on doing that for the scale layout. I believe the drum pads have it already. I'm not planning it for the strings layouts, because that isn't a very string-like thing to do.

Thanks! Scale mode is where I was thinking. Drum mode does behave as desired but since one can't set the interval between rows, it doesn't work for this case (without editing each pad) unless I overlooked some setup option (possible).

Blue_Mangoo

@espiegel123 said:

@Blue_Mangoo said:

@espiegel123 said:

@Blue_Mangoo said:

@espiegel123 said:

@Blue_Mangoo said:

@espiegel123 said:

Btw, it seems like one needs to use Velocity in drum mode to take full advantage of that since in the other modes you can only play one key per row. I guess that makes sense. But it took me a little while to realize that was the way to play enable chord clusters. It would be nice if scale mode had an option to have multiple notes per row.

Please try changing the MIDI format setting from MPE-4 to MPE-3. It will allow more than one note per string.

Is it ok to use the MPE settings when playing a non-MPE synth? I was trying with single channel polyphonic.

MPE still works on some synths that don’t advertise themselves as being MPE compatible. But in general, no.

The code that controls the MIDI output for Velocity Keyboard single channel modes is very complicated because we have difficulty making this kind of interface work over a single MIDI channel. In comparison, the MPE code is trivially simple. We are avoiding making the Single channel modes have too many features because in the past when we designed more complex single channel MIDI output, it reached a point where we would look at something we wrote one or two years back and we couldn’t understand our own code. The result was that when we fixed a bug, we would end up breaking other features. MPE makes all that mess go away. So we are just hoping that it continues to grow in popularity and be supported by more developers.

I see. Well, if an option for multiple notes per row were possible in non-MPE mode that would be great. As I write, I am realizing that using the MPE workaround will probably result in some strange behavior in some MIDI recording software.

We are working on doing that for the scale layout. I believe the drum pads have it already. I'm not planning it for the strings layouts, because that isn't a very string-like thing to do.

Thanks! Scale mode is where I was thinking. Drum mode does behave as desired but since one can't set the interval between rows, it doesn't work for this case (without editing each pad) unless I overlooked some setup option (possible).

The drums layouts assume that you are going to edit the layout and save it in a preset.

[Deleted User]

@Blue_Mangoo said:

@nondes said:
@Blue_Mangoo Please reconsider adding note names for notes and sharps. With drum mode, it's even harder to select a pitch mapping without having a note label to tell what's mapped.

Per earlier, this would also be helpful for scales mode. Thanks.

Thanks for suggesting it. If we can think of a way to label it that fits together with the aesthetic of the app then we will do it.

There would be no problem if there weren't sharps/flats notes, like in the Dodeka system: https://dodekamusic.com/alternative-music-notation/dodeka-alternative-music-notation/#go_scales

Yes, I know, a bubble in a bubble... but good idea nonetheless.

@Blue_Mangoo said:
Several years ago I spoke with the developer of Musix and from that conversation I had the impression that the term “isomorphic layout” referred to any layout where the geometric shape of a Major triad (or any other chord) would be the same regardless of which key we transpose it to. So, for example, the fourths, fifths, and major thirds tunings in Velocity Keyboard are isomorphic layouts, but the guitar tuning is not isomorphic because the major third interval between the g and b strings breaks the isomorphism.

Yes.

From: Wikipedia

An isomorphic keyboard is a musical input device consisting of a two-dimensional grid of note-controlling elements (such as buttons or keys) on which any given sequence and/or combination of musical intervals has the "same shape" on the keyboard wherever it occurs – within a key, across keys, across octaves, and across tunings.

oat_phipps

I'm sorry, but I just don't have the energy to read the whole thread. I seem to remember there being an option to use bluetooth from iphone to ipad or ipad to ipad, but I can't seem to figure out where or how. Was I dreaming or am I just totally missing something right in front of me? Please quote me if you respond to me, as it's quite a large thread.

Hyatha

@oat_phipps said:
I'm sorry, but I just don't have the energy to read the whole thread. I seem to remember there being an option to use bluetooth from iphone to ipad or ipad to ipad, but I can't seem to figure out where or how. Was I dreaming or am I just totally missing something right in front of me? Please quote me if you respond to me, as it's quite a large thread.

the latest update added the bluetooth configuration to the setting menu