Which Wavetable synths can create wavetables from audio

Scythe Synthesizer can create a Wavetable from imported audio. Which other iOS Wavetable synths have this capability?

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  • Waldorf Nave

  • Poseidon by VirSyn can create them from audio files. WaveGenerator by PPG can create them from images.

  • Synthmaster One describes this capability:

    Wavetable Synthesis: SynthMaster One implements true wavetable synthesis which opens up new possibilities for sound design. SynthMaster One comes with a rich wavetable library and you can extend that by dragging and dropping wavetable files using the Files App (requires iOS 11+)

  • @McD said:
    Synthmaster One describes this capability:

    Wavetable Synthesis: SynthMaster One implements true wavetable synthesis which opens up new possibilities for sound design. SynthMaster One comes with a rich wavetable library and you can extend that by dragging and dropping wavetable files using the Files App (requires iOS 11+)

    @McD : Thanks. My question/interest is related to creating wavetables from audio samples rather than importing wavetables.

  • Any others?

    How similar/different are Nave and Poseidon?

    I have read a lot of raves by Nave owners.

  • McDMcD
    edited April 14

    @espiegel123 said:

    @McD said:
    Synthmaster One describes this capability:

    Wavetable Synthesis: SynthMaster One implements true wavetable synthesis which opens up new possibilities for sound design. SynthMaster One comes with a rich wavetable library and you can extend that by dragging and dropping wavetable files using the Files App (requires iOS 11+)

    @McD : Thanks. My question/interest is related to creating wavetables from audio samples rather than importing wavetables.

    I assumed an audio sample was a valid wavetable file. Ignorance continues to keep me on my toes. What do wavetable files contain? Is there a standard format? I do wonder if you
    wanted more than just sound... like some extra metadata. Or the ease of recording to generate the wavetable. I'll stay tuned to see if/why Scythe Synth stands alone for this.

    EG WaveShaper (@ElliottGarage) could probably add this feature for more sales.

  • It used to be possible to import wavs into Animoog using ifunbox but I’m not sure whether that’s still the case.
    https://forum.audiob.us/discussion/24856/how-to-create-animoog-custom-timbres

  • edited April 14

    @McD said:

    @espiegel123 said:

    @McD said:
    Synthmaster One describes this capability:

    Wavetable Synthesis: SynthMaster One implements true wavetable synthesis which opens up new possibilities for sound design. SynthMaster One comes with a rich wavetable library and you can extend that by dragging and dropping wavetable files using the Files App (requires iOS 11+)

    @McD : Thanks. My question/interest is related to creating wavetables from audio samples rather than importing wavetables.

    I assumed an audio sample was a valid wavetable file. Ignorance continues to keep me on my toes. What do wavetable files contain? Is there a standard format? I do wonder if you
    wanted more than just sound... like some extra metadata. Or the ease of recording to generate the wavetable. I'll stay tuned to see if/why Scythe Synth stands alone for this.

    EG WaveShaper (@ElliottGarage) could probably add this feature for more sales.

    @McD : Here is an oversimplification that may give you more of a sense of what wavetable synthesis about. Wavetables are essentially arrays of single cycle waveforms (or multi-cycle waveforms) usually with a fixed number of samples (typically 2048?) per waveform. Wavetable synths can cycle through those waveforms and cycle between them to create interesting textural variations different from what you get by filtering oscillators (which are essentially single cycle waveforms). There are many different ways that one can generate wavetables. Generating them from audio is one way. There is some art in coming up with interesting wavetables.

  • @supadom said:
    It used to be possible to import wavs into Animoog using ifunbox but I’m not sure whether that’s still the case.
    https://forum.audiob.us/discussion/24856/how-to-create-animoog-custom-timbres

    If I’m not mistaken, Animoog requires you to create the individual wave cycles for the wavetables and crop them to a precise number of samples. A much more laborious process than selected an audio file and have the app take care of it. People have come up with some great wavetables for Animoog that way, but as I understand it, the process is time consuming (though probably less hit-and-miss than carefully prepping your slices.

  • @supadom : thanks for posting that link. That is a great video and a less tedious method than I found in another tutorial. I’ll have to try it out.

  • @espiegel123 said:

    @McD said:

    @espiegel123 said:

    @McD said:
    Synthmaster One describes this capability:

    Wavetable Synthesis: SynthMaster One implements true wavetable synthesis which opens up new possibilities for sound design. SynthMaster One comes with a rich wavetable library and you can extend that by dragging and dropping wavetable files using the Files App (requires iOS 11+)

    @McD : Thanks. My question/interest is related to creating wavetables from audio samples rather than importing wavetables.

    I assumed an audio sample was a valid wavetable file. Ignorance continues to keep me on my toes. What do wavetable files contain? Is there a standard format? I do wonder if you
    wanted more than just sound... like some extra metadata. Or the ease of recording to generate the wavetable. I'll stay tuned to see if/why Scythe Synth stands alone for this.

    EG WaveShaper (@ElliottGarage) could probably add this feature for more sales.

    @McD : Here is an oversimplification that may give you more of a sense of what wavetable synthesis about. Wavetables are essentially arrays of single cycle waveforms (or multi-cycle waveforms) usually with a fixed number of samples (typically 2048?) per waveform. Wavetable synths can cycle through those waveforms and cycle between them to create interesting textural variations different from what you get by filtering oscillators (which are essentially single cycle waveforms). There are many different ways that one can generate wavetables. Generating them from audio is one way. There is some art in coming up with interesting wavetables.

    Excellent summary. This will be good content for the Forum's Wiki.

    I wasn't getting the "fixed number of samples" requirement (with sample = 16, 24 or 32-bit measurement) which harkens back to the discrete electronics designs Waldorf pioneered and so many implemented to create digital synthesis devices.

    (Sets watch to see how long it takes for someone to show prior art to Waldorf. Sometimes I actually Google before commenting... sometimes I hope to be wrong to learn more without the effort or doing the research.

    Are there collections of wavetables out there to download and add to Scythe Synth?

  • edited April 14

    @McD said:

    @espiegel123 said:

    @McD said:

    @espiegel123 said:

    @McD said:
    Synthmaster One describes this capability:

    Wavetable Synthesis: SynthMaster One implements true wavetable synthesis which opens up new possibilities for sound design. SynthMaster One comes with a rich wavetable library and you can extend that by dragging and dropping wavetable files using the Files App (requires iOS 11+)

    @McD : Thanks. My question/interest is related to creating wavetables from audio samples rather than importing wavetables.

    I assumed an audio sample was a valid wavetable file. Ignorance continues to keep me on my toes. What do wavetable files contain? Is there a standard format? I do wonder if you
    wanted more than just sound... like some extra metadata. Or the ease of recording to generate the wavetable. I'll stay tuned to see if/why Scythe Synth stands alone for this.

    EG WaveShaper (@ElliottGarage) could probably add this feature for more sales.

    @McD : Here is an oversimplification that may give you more of a sense of what wavetable synthesis about. Wavetables are essentially arrays of single cycle waveforms (or multi-cycle waveforms) usually with a fixed number of samples (typically 2048?) per waveform. Wavetable synths can cycle through those waveforms and cycle between them to create interesting textural variations different from what you get by filtering oscillators (which are essentially single cycle waveforms). There are many different ways that one can generate wavetables. Generating them from audio is one way. There is some art in coming up with interesting wavetables.

    Excellent summary. This will be good content for the Forum's Wiki.

    I wasn't getting the "fixed number of samples" requirement (with sample = 16, 24 or 32-bit measurement) which harkens back to the discrete electronics designs Waldorf pioneered and so many implemented to create digital synthesis devices.

    (Sets watch to see how long it takes for someone to show prior art to Waldorf. Sometimes I actually Google before commenting... sometimes I hope to be wrong to learn more without the effort or doing the research.

    Are there collections of wavetables out there to download and add to Scythe Synth?

    usually its 256 or a multiple of that (512/1024/2048) ...
    Wolfgang Palm came up with this (PPG) http://wolfgangpalm.com
    the code from nave came from mr. Palm too and was sold to Waldorf



    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PPG_Wave
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wavetable_synthesis

    what wavetables can't do is noise, its always harmonic ...

    btw. you can draw wavetables yourself with audacity ...
    create an empty sample of desired length, use the draw tool, ...

  • This is a free desktop tool, and a brilliant one by the same developer that's behind VCV Rack (Andrew Belt).

    http://synthtech.com/waveedit/

    It was created for building true single cycle composite wavetables for a couple of Eurorack modules but the wavetables can be loaded into anything capable of playing back wavetables.

    The really good news is that not only is it free, it's available for OS X and Linux as well as Windows.

    Also, and I'm not being pedantic here, Virsyn Poseidon is brilliant but it's not a true wavetable synth (although it can play wavetables back - it just treats them as any other WAV or AIFF). It's a resynthesis tool that reconstructs the sounds you feed it via the classic additive synthesis technique of an array of sine waves. Thinking of it as a wavetable synthesis tool of the Wolfgang Palm variety only leads to disappointment. That doesn't make it weaker, its strengths are completely different, that's all.

    The best commercial library of pre-made wavetables is Architecture Waveforms by Galbanum. They provide multiple formats of the library as well as the pre-made wavetables, the most flexible of which are individual single cycles WAV's which you can construct yourself into your 'desert island' wavetable library. I purchased the multi-format bundle as that was the best value and it's served me well over the years.

    https://www.designersound.com/waveforms-2010/135-architecture-waveforms-2010-wavetable.html

    Galbanum provides the wavetables for most of the leading wavetable synths on the market including Serum, in case you were wondering about the quality. The following link is the actual product page which is a fantastic geeky read. It also links to some great PDF's including a catalogue detailing the actual waveforms on offer.

    If you're looking for a free selection of wavetables, these are really good.

    https://www.adventurekid.se/akrt/waveforms/

  • McDMcD
    edited April 14

    @Max23 raises his hand

    Then steps up to the podium and using slides details the history of Wavetable synthesis.
    This is why I ask questions. So, much power here in human form.

    @jonmoore raises his hand

    Check out https://www.adventurekid.se/akrt/waveforms/

    I love these internet curator types.

    There are also Room and Cabinet IR files there. Bonus points.
    I want to load some IR's in a beta AUv3 FX app and might buy
    iConvolver to compare. I want files without license constraints for
    re-distribution.

  • edited April 14

    the adventure kit stuff has odd length ... (600 samples)
    but just put them in a sampler and crossfadeloop them ...

  • @jonmoore . Thanks for the heads up about Poseidon being a stealth additive synth. I'm all set in that department.

  • edited April 14

    lets hear it from the man himself (palm standing in the crowd here)

  • McDMcD
    edited April 14

    @Max23 said:
    crossfadeloop them

    I see these new terms and another door is opened. Crossfadeloop is a verb!
    Maybe there's a button.

    New is relative to the individual. We are all stupid in some subject matter area.

    "The Fourier transform decomposes a signal into its constituent frequencies."

    I love it when the engineering/technical subjects mingle with the pure arts and interpreters
    are required. There are a lot of interpreters hanging out here.

  • edited April 15

    a crossfadeloop loops anything without clicks
    no need to look for zero crossings ...
    it blends the end of the sample with the start and the other way round (oversimplified)
    like this

    not the best demo but you get the idea
    I tried the adventure kit stuff without crossfadeloops but just got weird brrrrr sounds instead of beep ...
    they looked correct but didn't work as expected, dont know why that happened, didnt investigate

  • Here's another good resource for wave tables. https://charlesdickens.neocities.org There are hundreds that Mark Holt has created. Quality, diverse tables that I've used in Serum, Dune VSTs and SynthmasterOne on iOS.

  • Apologies for the minor digression, but on the subject of crossfades on loops. One of the reasons Ableton Live is such an intuitive tool with regards to working with audio loops is that it automatically adds crossfades to the start and end of every chunk of audio. Your editing skills can be really janky, yet edits and loops playback glitch free. DAW purists pour down scorn on this auto crossfade habit but I think the only sin Ableton has committed is not making this auto crossfade policy more clear to its customers. It the past you had a visual clue but since Live 10 crossfade and automation curves are hidden by default.

    Anyway, digression over, and as @Max23 suggests, crossfades hide a multitude of sins when it comes to building your own wavetables. Plus a strength of the better wavetable synths is the quality of the interpolation they provide as the engine scans through the wavetable. I was lucky enough to pick up a PPG Wave 2.3 in the early nineties when they were deeply unfashionable. I loved it for so many reasons but I've heard a needle skipping across vinyl sound smoother than a PPG scanning through its wavetable - but I suppose that was all part of the charm too. :)

  • edited April 15

    what seem to work very well with wavetables is if you start with something very simple (sine) and interpolate with some complex waveform then you can easily morph between more or less overtones ...

    other stuff is much more complicated and you should really know what you are doing
    random trial and error isn't very pleasant here
    YMMV

  • What differentiates Nave from the PPG iOS synths? Each seems to have its fans.

    @McD : as far as I can tell Scythe doesn't import or export wavetables other than the wavetables in its store.

  • @Max23 said:
    the adventure kit stuff has odd length ... (600 samples)
    but just put them in a sampler and crossfadeloop them ...

    @jonmoore said:
    Apologies for the minor digression, but on the subject of crossfades on loops. One of the reasons Ableton Live is such an intuitive tool with regards to working with audio loops is that it automatically adds crossfades to the start and end of every chunk of audio. Your editing skills can be really janky, yet edits and loops playback glitch free. DAW purists pour down scorn on this auto crossfade habit but I think the only sin Ableton has committed is not making this auto crossfade policy more clear to its customers. It the past you had a visual clue but since Live 10 crossfade and automation curves are hidden by default.

    Anyway, digression over, and as @Max23 suggests, crossfades hide a multitude of sins when it comes to building your own wavetables. Plus a strength of the better wavetable synths is the quality of the interpolation they provide as the engine scans through the wavetable. I was lucky enough to pick up a PPG Wave 2.3 in the early nineties when they were deeply unfashionable. I loved it for so many reasons but I've heard a needle skipping across vinyl sound smoother than a PPG scanning through its wavetable - but I suppose that was all part of the charm too. :)

    This is a timely digression... I'm auto-sampling AU Apps to make instruments for AudioLayer and the Layer settings offer:

    Summing Zones
    Crossfade Linear
    Crossfade Equalpower

    This gives me a better understanding of what happens when 2 samples get mixed. I'm not there yet for fine tuning my instruments but I will be at some point.

  • edited April 15

    nave is very very easy to use
    you dont need to understand shit to come up with something impressive sounding
    and it has this interesting speech synthesis as source material
    make lush otherworldly vocalish pads in no time, or resynthesis whatever sample ...
    and it has this special spectral noise thing
    its all easy going

    the new palm stuff is very detailed, 13(?) envelopes to do shit, nothing I would use for hey lets do interesting shit from scratch in 5 minutes, but does everything you could possibly want if you want to dive deep down

    they are kind of the opposite to each other

  • @McD : if you have Scythe's wavetable editor IAP, you can see the wavetable elements. When you load a wavetable, you will see the individual wavetables (waveform) that make up the array (table) that we call wavetables (perhaps more correctly composite wavetables as Jon noted--since technically the individual waveforms are also called wavetables by some)

    Anyway, you will see that Scythe's wavetable is made up of 256 individual waveforms. There are some nice tools for manipulating the wavetable though I'd like to see better options for feathering/blending at the selected ranges borders.

  • edited April 15

    @McD said:

    @Max23 said:
    the adventure kit stuff has odd length ... (600 samples)
    but just put them in a sampler and crossfadeloop them ...

    @jonmoore said:
    Apologies for the minor digression, but on the subject of crossfades on loops. One of the reasons Ableton Live is such an intuitive tool with regards to working with audio loops is that it automatically adds crossfades to the start and end of every chunk of audio. Your editing skills can be really janky, yet edits and loops playback glitch free. DAW purists pour down scorn on this auto crossfade habit but I think the only sin Ableton has committed is not making this auto crossfade policy more clear to its customers. It the past you had a visual clue but since Live 10 crossfade and automation curves are hidden by default.

    Anyway, digression over, and as @Max23 suggests, crossfades hide a multitude of sins when it comes to building your own wavetables. Plus a strength of the better wavetable synths is the quality of the interpolation they provide as the engine scans through the wavetable. I was lucky enough to pick up a PPG Wave 2.3 in the early nineties when they were deeply unfashionable. I loved it for so many reasons but I've heard a needle skipping across vinyl sound smoother than a PPG scanning through its wavetable - but I suppose that was all part of the charm too. :)

    This is a timely digression... I'm auto-sampling AU Apps to make instruments for AudioLayer and the Layer settings offer:

    Summing Zones
    Crossfade Linear
    Crossfade Equalpower

    This gives me a better understanding of what happens when 2 samples get mixed. I'm not there yet for fine tuning my instruments but I will be at some point.

    equal power should do it

    summing zones sounds like sample a note every few keys and distribute them as fits and fade with other layer??? just a guess, you need to read the manual

  • edited April 15

    @McD said:

    @Max23 said:
    crossfadeloop them

    I see these new terms and another door is opened. Crossfadeloop is a verb!
    Maybe there's a button.

    New is relative to the individual. We are all stupid in some subject matter area.

    "The Fourier transform decomposes a signal into its constituent frequencies."

    I love it when the engineering/technical subjects mingle with the pure arts and interpreters
    are required. There are a lot of interpreters hanging out here.

    fft (fast Fourier transform) analysis frequency (over time) and then recomposes it to do whatever (oversimplified)
    that's a basic method of DSP (digital signal processing)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fast_Fourier_transform
    https://dspguru.com/dsp/faqs/fft/

    its deep mathematical shit, nothing you should be concerned about as musician
    all you need to know is that it exists and it works ;)

    I'm way to stupid to understand what {\displaystyle X_{k}=\sum {n=0}^{N-1}x{n}e^{-i2\pi kn/N}=\sum {n=0}^{N-1}x{n}w^{-kn}\qquad k=0,\dots ,N-1.} does lol ;)

  • @Max23 said:
    just a guess, you need to read the manual

    @Virsyn has to pass on the manuals. I can find the quote with a little time. Economics. Why use manuals when you have community.

  • zone somehow sounds like a key range from c2 to c4 or something

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