Why?!!! WHY?!!! In the name of all that is MIDI why don't devs offer relative MIDI mapping?!!!

ARGH! When you're dealing with multiple apps, in software, absolute midi mapping is just about worthless. Especially when you're dealing with encoders.

To date, I've not found a SINGLE iOS app that uses relative midi mapping (i.e. 63/65=-/+ with acceleration).

What kills me is Arturia, in the damn manual for the minilab controller goes to great lengths talking about how relative encoder settings are preferred for DAW/software control, yet THEIR OWN iSEM app doesn't offer it!!

With relative controls you can map the same damn encoders using different midi channels to control basically EVERYTHING with no parameter jumping (the normal "bad thing") or the super annoying," wiggle the s#!t until you find the latch point in pick-up modes...

Seriously, it can't be that hard to do as EVERY DAMN VST and desktop DAW offers relative midi mapping!!!!

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Comments

  • Most devs have trouble implementing standard midi functions, I don't think they even know about relative MIDI and endless controllers ...

  • @Korakios said:
    Most devs have trouble implementing standard midi functions, I don't think they even know about relative MIDI and endless controllers ...

    Maybe some small ones, but as I said, Arturia know so much about it they try to talk people INTO it!

    I contacted them like a year ago about adding relMIDI to iSEM and they were like.. "Meh..."

    Considering that a midi controller is an absolute necessity if you're doing anything even remotely complex due do audio/midi stuttering when switching apps (unless you manage to find a way to do it all in AU), it's just mind boggling more people don't share my freak out about this. Well other than @Multicellular :wink:

  • @MonkeyDrummer said:

    @Korakios said:
    Most devs have trouble implementing standard midi functions, I don't think they even know about relative MIDI and endless controllers ...

    Maybe some small ones, but as I said, Arturia know so much about it they try to talk people INTO it!

    I contacted them like a year ago about adding relMIDI to iSEM and they were like.. "Meh..."

    Considering that a midi controller is an absolute necessity if you're doing anything even remotely complex due do audio/midi stuttering when switching apps (unless you manage to find a way to do it all in AU), it's just mind boggling more people don't share my freak out about this. Well other than @Multicellular :wink:

    I have owned a few Arturia IOS apps and I can tell you that they put very, very little effort into them once released. iSpark felt like abandon-ware for the longest time.

  • edited November 2018

    er Quantum has had this for awhile? You have a choice of absolute, relative, scalled, pickup on learnt controls, plus I have nrpn too.
    Also for control surfaces devices you can output groups of controls from the app
    But I realise your rant is about a company that should have provided this ;)

  • This is one of the many reasons why I'm still able to draw a clear line between desktop OS and iOS apps. Why would a developer invest the effort when 99% of the iDevice musicians are using their iPad or iPhone just for the fun of it, I dare to say mostly even without any external gear.
    I am a steady defender of more in-depth MIDI support in iOS apps because it has the potential of opening a whole new exciting world when using, for example, an iPad with external MIDI controllers and groove boxes, but judging from the average amount of responses that related requests usually get, advanced MIDI features seem to be much less interesting than a fresh new app with a new look.

    Anyway, if enough people ask for it, I see no reason why it shouldn't be added to any controllable app.
    Relative controllers have the great advantage that they neither cause value jumps nor do they need parameter feedback (although that would be nice of course).

    From the development aspect the implementation of relative controllers is rather easy to do, but IMHO it's only useful if it's configurable enough to support most of the relative CC protocols out there today.

    If any developer reads this:
    Check what relative MIDI control variations Ableton Live supports and use that as a reference.

  • @midiSequencer said:
    er Quantum has had this for awhile? You have a choice of absolute, relative, scalled, pickup on learnt controls, plus I have nrpn too.
    Also for control surfaces devices you can output groups of controls from the app
    But I realise your rant is about a company that should have provided this ;)

    Great to see that there's a sequencer supporting relative controls!
    However I think the rant is much more about relative MIDI control destinations that sources, like synths and effect apps.

  • @MonkeyDrummer Welcome to my lost crusade... :D Now I just yelled for, at least, program change...
    And use Faderfox midi controllers that may send a snapshot, in conjunction with Modstep that also send the parameters to synths or effect to help a bit more...
    Laborious but it's wrwrking...

  • no catch mode for controls (encoders, sliders...) it's got to be a conspiracy
    novation seem to think its fun to have parameter jumps too. sold my bass station because of this. lovely synth tho.
    don't understand why it's not standard on all apps

  • I would also kill or die for relative MIDI CC in an app like BM3, AUM or Modstep.

  • @rs2000 said:

    @midiSequencer said:
    er Quantum has had this for awhile? You have a choice of absolute, relative, scalled, pickup on learnt controls, plus I have nrpn too.
    Also for control surfaces devices you can output groups of controls from the app
    But I realise your rant is about a company that should have provided this ;)

    Great to see that there's a sequencer supporting relative controls!
    However I think the rant is much more about relative MIDI control destinations that sources, like synths and effect apps.

    It's implemented as a destination in Quantum. Tony is talking about the modes available for MIDI control of the sequencer's sliders (etc).

  • I agree. Props to developers like @midiSequencer who treat iOS like a professional environment and implement all the details any pro musician would need for performance.

    If more developers had full midi implementation and connectivity in mind, then more musicians would use take the platform seriously. As it stands, the vast majority of music apps out there fall into the "toy" camp without much vision outside of said toy noisemaker (ie. the hundreds of portrait-only standalone music apps out there).

    Auv3 and particularly apps like Apematrix and Aum are a step in the right direction, but I strongly feel that plugin developers need to see the broader picture here. If you're making a plugin that sits in a larger environment with many instruments and fx playing together, then there needs to be a high level of external controllability of each Plugin via midi - PROGRAM CHANGE (I can't believe how many apps don't have this most basic midi function), midi learn, relative pickup, full CC list, etc.

    The fact that it's in Auv3 means that the GUI will most likely be hidden and controlled by something else. Strange that few developers seem to understand what musicians needs are. They are out there, but I'm constantly coming across great sounding plugins that I can't use in my rig due to broken/lacking midi functionality (i'm looking at you, Virsyn/AudioDamage/Brambos!)

  • AU is different to coreMidi though with AU Parameters. These can be ramped but again deal with absolute values and are a pain to implement for devs.

  • @syrupcore said:

    @rs2000 said:

    @midiSequencer said:
    er Quantum has had this for awhile? You have a choice of absolute, relative, scalled, pickup on learnt controls, plus I have nrpn too.
    Also for control surfaces devices you can output groups of controls from the app
    But I realise your rant is about a company that should have provided this ;)

    Great to see that there's a sequencer supporting relative controls!
    However I think the rant is much more about relative MIDI control destinations that sources, like synths and effect apps.

    It's implemented as a destination in Quantum. Tony is talking about the modes available for MIDI control of the sequencer's sliders (etc).

    Oh, I didn't know that.
    So this could be the first step in "forwarding" relative CC to AUv3 plugins?
    Sounds good :smiley:

  • Agree on this, question is is it possible to maybe workaround it somehow ? Mididesigner, streambyter or midiflow ? I think streambyter should be able to do this dont know how though

  • @Hansson said:
    Agree on this, question is is it possible to maybe workaround it somehow ? Mididesigner, streambyter or midiflow ? I think streambyter should be able to do this dont know how though

    What you can do with StreamByter or MidiFire is convert relative CC to absolute CC, but that won't really help because only the destination knows about the current value.
    To increment or decrement, you have to start from the correct (i.e. current) value and a MIDI processor cannot know that because no iOS plugin I know of allows for requesting current parameters by MIDI.
    You could create as many presets for default values as you have presets in the destination synth/effect etc. you want to control, but to create such a collection for every plugin you want to control sounds like a double nightmare.

  • edited November 2018

    True what iam thinking is maybe a streambyter with lets say 8 inputs And 32 outputs (4banks) sen swith between them with hot keys and have streambyter remember last value on each output

  • @Hansson said:
    True what iam thinking is maybe a streambyter with lets say 8 inputs And 32 outputs (4banks) sen swith between them with hot keys and have streambyter remember last value on each output

    Yes, you could do that if it is what you want.

    I have found myself making much more use of the iOS Accessibility > Zoom function to tweak knobs directly on-screen :D

  • Few month later... nothing new under the sun regarding endless, incremental, relative or whatever that allows for a safe live rig control without fader jumps. It seems quite strage, since apps as AB3 or AUM know where the faders are (they save their status) so a conversion from midi to fader level should be feasible, even if not by the standart midi way.

  • Will a utility , converting relative to absolute with preset saving be useful to many people here?

  • I am currently working on a controlling script in Mozaic for AKAI APC40 MKII which has endless LED encoders. I had already experienced success with storing and switching values, so you can use the encoders to e.g. control only active channel macros and switch between them while the LED switches according to real values of the controlled parameters.
    The point is in storing the values within Mozaic memory as no AU host currently send values out, they can only accept inbound MIDI messages to set the values. With Mozaic, you store this inside variable and on script load and active channel switch you send them to the controller.
    As far as I remember, relative encoders work a bit differently - they only repeatedly send 63/65 values which means decrease/increase the current value. But I believe this can be also solved by a Mozaic script that keeps the value internally and passes it as an absolute value.
    Of course, it's never as elegant as having support for relative encoders in the host itself, but could be used as a temporary workaround.

  • As soon as we're able to retrieve the current values of all parameters, those pretty hardware controllers could be supported by MidiFire/Mozaic/StreamByter scripts or, even better, by hosts and synths.
    Without that support, have fun writing scripts with parameter lists for all presets.
    Not worth spending the time IMHO.

  • The real question is :
    Will the user be willing to make an extra step ,loading a session in their favorite host , plus loading the session's midi preset?

  • Why Ableton makes so much sense and saves so much time.

    Unfortunately I see a trend to the same issues we had with IAA regarding "settings"and "configuration"....one too many things to tend to lately IMHO

    Hardware and Ableton starting to nudge ahead in many things do to ease of things like MIDI LEARN.....and routing.

  • Is this nothing StreamByter could do?

  • @Korakios said:
    Will a utility , converting relative to absolute with preset saving be useful to many people here?

    I guess to anyone playing live music or launching audio/loops, changing track levels or fading on the fly, those who exchanged the multieffects for an iPad...

  • Jonatan Lilhedal, from Kymatica confirmed at FB that relative encoders are in the whishlist!!!!!

  • edited June 28

    Greetings!
    Here is a first version of a mozaic script i wrote for myself to use minilab mkII with relative knobs. I've mapped controller's knobs to send values on cc# 11-26 on channels 10-16.

    https://patchstorage.com/relativeccv0-1/

    Not sure if it will be comfortable to use because it require custom controller maps. But for me it works as expected. Finally i can use relative knobs with iOS.
    Here is the description of a script. Sorry for poor english :blush: .

    "
    ( Tested only in AUM )
    This script receives relative cc values from midi controller and outputs them as absolute.

    Input channels must be from 10 to 16
    and cc # must be from 11 to 26

    Script stores last values so when you load up session there will be no jumping values.

    Optionally there are three pads you can use with these functions :
    1) save - store default values for relative cc #11-26 on channels 10-16
    2) load - load stored default values when pressed.
    3) autoload - if this button is lit – script will autoload stored default values when session is loaded

    Example of midi routing setup is on a screenshot
    "
    Didn't had time yet to do a heavy testing with all channels. perhaps there are bugs. but i haven't noticed any yet.

  • Tomorrow I’ll start making a PureData patch in MobMuPlat. But if anyone is already working on it (I mean in PureData since @chalice was kind enough to share a Mozaic patch) , please post here :)

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