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Wavestation brain pain

Giving myself headaches trying to wrap my mind and grab control of korgs wavestation (gadget).
Made my own patch, looked at the time it took, no bueno.
The presets sound great, not really my thing using them, but at this point....

How do you find yourself using/programing this synth?

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Comments

  • edited September 2018

    Besides having a complex interface, Korg also offered up screwy init files that aren’t really ideal init files.

    For starters, recognize the save file system, and how it’s set up. There are three things you can save: 1. The total performance, which saves everything. This is at the top. 2. The second tier (I forget what it’s called) saves the four currently loaded wave tables. This is just below the first tier. 3. The individual wave tables.

    It’s best to think in terms of individual wave tables, the lowest denominator, then build up from there. iWavestation allows you to morph between 2 or 4 wavetables, or just play one, and this part is the 2nd tier mentioned above. In this second tier you can load different wave tables, and morph between them either manually or by automation. You can then load multiple 2nd tier files (I think up to 8) and map them to different zones on the keyboard, and this makes up a performance.

    Here’s how I would proceed, for starters:

    Step one I’d say is create a true init wave table file, one that has the filter cutoff right, the modulations off, etc. Then save that wave table init file and use it to begin, making sure you don’t save over it. Step two, make sure the 2nd tier init file has only ONE of the four wave tables turned on, so you can focus on building single wave tables. Step three, as you build more and more wave tables, save them and use them to start building 2nd tier files that include morphing between different wave tables.

    You can then build a performance file if you want, and obviously you can use some of the default wave table files if you want.

    It’s actually not that complex when you realize what’s going on, but it just doesn’t help to have such an enigmatic UI, and then yeah the init files makes things worse. It’s worth it though, it’s a unique synth, nice effects too.

  • @e121 said:
    Besides having a complex interface, Korg also offered up screwy init files that aren’t really ideal init files.

    For starters, recognize the save file system, and how it’s set up. There are three things you can save: 1. The total performance, which saves everything. This is at the top. 2. The second tier (I forget what it’s called) saves the four currently loaded wave tables. This is just below the first tier. 3. The individual wave tables.

    It’s best to think in terms of individual wave tables, the lowest denominator, then build up from there. iWavestation allows you to morph between 2 or 4 wavetables, or just play one, and this part is the 2nd tier mentioned above. In this second tier you can load different wave tables, and morph between them either manually or by automation. You can then load multiple 2nd tier files (I think up to 8) and map them to different zones on the keyboard, and this makes up a performance.

    Here’s how I would proceed, for starters:

    Step one I’d say is create a true init wave table file, one that has the filter cutoff right, the modulations off, etc. Then save that wave table init file and use it to begin, making sure you don’t save over it. Step two, make sure the 2nd tier init file has only ONE of the four wave tables turned on, so you can focus on building single wave tables. Step three, as you build more and more wave tables, save them and use them to start building 2nd tier files that include morphing between different wave tables.

    You can then build a performance file if you want, and obviously you can use some of the default wave table files if you want.

    It’s actually not that complex when you realize what’s going on, but it just doesn’t help to have such an enigmatic UI, and then yeah the init files makes things worse. It’s worth it though, it’s a unique synth, nice effects too.

    Official names are:

    Performance - 1st tier, saves everything, can contain multiple Patches
    Patch - 2nd tier, saves four Wave Sequences
    Wave Sequence - 3rd tier, the single building block of sound

  • @breilly said:
    Giving myself headaches trying to wrap my mind and grab control of korgs wavestation (gadget).
    Made my own patch, looked at the time it took, no bueno.
    The presets sound great, not really my thing using them, but at this point....

    How do you find yourself using/programing this synth?

    If I had to explain it in easy words, I'd say:
    iWavestation is, first of all, a sequencer.
    If you want sound, you have to put at least one event into one sequencer track.
    You can see each wave sequence as one sequencer track.
    A steady sound requires one long event, and a wave sequence requires a number of sequenced shorter waveform events.
    All the rest is more or less like what's in many other synths.

    Take your time, read the manual and learn how to use it.

  • Probably doesn’t help either that the controls to build a Wave Sequence are kind of wonky. There’s also a bug that doesn’t let you scroll on the sequence main page, though you can easily switch to the mixer or effects page then switch back to get it to scroll. Bottom line is, the goodness of iWavestation is kind of nullified by the way it’s set up.

  • @e121 said:
    Probably doesn’t help either that the controls to build a Wave Sequence are kind of wonky. There’s also a bug that doesn’t let you scroll on the sequence main page, though you can easily switch to the mixer or effects page then switch back to get it to scroll. Bottom line is, the goodness of iWavestation is kind of nullified by the way it’s set up.

    Oh yes, iWavestation is as fiddly as it could get.
    Nonetheless I find it insanely powerful - as if 8 "tracks" werent enough, each waveform component has its own filter/pitch/volume curve, LFO, modulation etc. so building a sound is mainly a matter of finding, filtering and mixing the right PCM waveforms. And there's a lot of them. For me it's like a Roland D-50 Mk II.

  • Maybe we should get some preset sharing going?

    I think it’s possible to export / import presets in iwavestation. And even get them over to Gadget.

  • edited September 2018

    My problem has always been that the presets I make end up being very low volume. And I find the only way to address this is to slap a distortion effect on them and turn up the gain. Which isn’t ideal.

    I’m sure it’s something I’m doing wrong though.

  • @Matt_Fletcher_2000 said:
    My problem has always been that the presets I make end up being very low volume. And I find the only way to address this is to slap a distortion effect on them and turn up the gain. Which isn’t ideal.

    I’m sure it’s something I’m doing wrong though.

    There are so many pages with parameters that influence levels (including modulation and envelopes!), it's best to go through all of them, increase levels as you like and do what @e121 suggested: Save your own templates. It's also a good idea to create templates for different wave sequences because sometimes you only want to create a layered, simple sound without any sequenced stuff, and sometimes you want 16ths over 4 downbeats on another part etc.

  • It is a victim of the spirit of the age of the gestalt of the zeitgeist of back in that particular day. Analogue synths were expensive to make in what are effectively such low volumes, and to increase capability meant adding more components, which adds up, cost-wise. The freedom of a software implemented synth design led to the trap of including absolutely every possible variable parameter or any imaginable organizational structure. So, with nothing to stop them, they did. Now we know better. A modern wave station would have a small fraction of the capability of the original, but it would be a reasonable design which doesn’t divert the creativity into cognitive overload. Kiev is kind of that.

  • @u0421793 said:
    It is a victim of the spirit of the age of the gestalt of the zeitgeist of back in that particular day. Analogue synths were expensive to make in what are effectively such low volumes, and to increase capability meant adding more components, which adds up, cost-wise. The freedom of a software implemented synth design led to the trap of including absolutely every possible variable parameter or any imaginable organizational structure. So, with nothing to stop them, they did. Now we know better. A modern wave station would have a small fraction of the capability of the original, but it would be a reasonable design which doesn’t divert the creativity into cognitive overload. Kiev is kind of that.

    Actually I'm happy they did it this way. There are loads of synths that are easier to use, but for layering sample attacks and sustained loops with enough flexibility to create all kinds of beautiful modern synth sounds, this one is still one of the very few options.
    Like said, by investing the creativity-killing brain power once and then just continue using self-made templates, the process can be rather quick.

  • @rs2000 said:

    Actually I'm happy they did it this way. There are loads of synths that are easier to use, but for layering sample attacks and sustained loops with enough flexibility to create all kinds of beautiful modern synth sounds, this one is still one of the very few options.
    Like said, by investing the creativity-killing brain power once and then just continue using self-made templates, the process can be rather quick.

    So am I..And if its true to the original, I like it even more. With 8 parts and 4 wavesequences per part, you can virtually make a track by holding down one key.

  • I also quite like the way it works.

    Kiev in Gadget is ok, but it quickly becomes limiting.

    IWavestation offers far greater possibilities if you have the time to learn it.

  • R_2R_2
    edited September 2018

    @Matt_Fletcher_2000 said:
    Maybe we should get some preset sharing going?

    I think it’s possible to export / import presets in iwavestation. And even get them over to Gadget.

    I like experimenting in iWavestation, made around 60 custom sounds. Still a great and unique synth.

    Preset sharing through iTunes sucks, specially with the import overwriting all user banks. But with Gadget now supporting Files we should be able to share through the project file. From there one could write the preset to a USER card (which is shared with standalone iWavestation).

    Here’s a zipped Gadget project with Milpitas playing the famous “FilmMusic” preset used in ‘U Got The Look’ by Prince (originally played on Prophet VS but I recreated it in iWavestation)
    https://www.transfernow.net/download/?utm_content=en&utm_medium=&utm_source=17k4j214usb3

    Download the zip, then copy and unzip it in AudioShare. Export the .gdproj2 to Files>On my iPad>Gadget.
    Don’t forget to ‘write’ the preset to a USER card.

  • edited September 2018

    I had to rename the .gddat file to .gdproj2 in AudioShare on iOS9, otherwise that's a good way to share presets (one could also create 20 tracks with 20 different milpitas presets to share more).
    It's good because this way, no existing presets are overwritten and we can choose to save individual presets to wherever we like.
    Thank you for the preset @R_2, sounds great :smiley:

  • I don't do gadget but I love iWavestation. Is there a way to export/import presets without iTunes from iWavestation?

  • @u0421793 said:
    It is a victim of the spirit of the age of the gestalt of the zeitgeist of back in that particular day. Analogue synths were expensive to make in what are effectively such low volumes, and to increase capability meant adding more components, which adds up, cost-wise. The freedom of a software implemented synth design led to the trap of including absolutely every possible variable parameter or any imaginable organizational structure. So, with nothing to stop them, they did. Now we know better. A modern wave station would have a small fraction of the capability of the original, but it would be a reasonable design which doesn’t divert the creativity into cognitive overload. Kiev is kind of that.

    Wise man, thats spot on👌🏼!

  • @rs2000 said:
    I had to rename the .gddat file to .gdproj2 in AudioShare on iOS9, otherwise that's a good way to share presets (one could also create 20 tracks with 20 different milpitas presets to share more).
    It's good because this way, no existing presets are overwritten and we can choose to save individual presets to wherever we like.
    Thank you for the preset @R_2, sounds great :smiley:

    Ok, cool. I’ll try and come up with 10 or so decent Milpitas patches and share in a Gadget project on this thread. Thanks a realistic challenge I think!

    I agree about it being a good way to share.

  • was chuffed when iWavestation came to Gadget/iOS. But it soon fell in to disuse due to lack of time in working out its complex interface. Have picked it up again lately and am committing to try to get a good workflow between this and Xequence, and to really dig into iWavestation. I don't think there is much else like it and the effects are able to really bend the sound from it too.

  • edited September 2018

    @Jocphone said:
    was chuffed when iWavestation came to Gadget/iOS. But it soon fell in to disuse due to lack of time in working out its complex interface. Have picked it up again lately and am committing to try to get a good workflow between this and Xequence, and to really dig into iWavestation. I don't think there is much else like it and the effects are able to really bend the sound from it too.

    Made a patch last night.

    I’m starting to really ‘get’ the wavetable thing now.

    Each ‘wave sequence’ is basically like constructing your own wavetable.

    The thing is a patch can have 4 different wavetables, and a performance can have up to 8 patches! That’s 32 wavetables to layer and modulate between. (Europa inside Reason Compact has 2).

    However, I’m still trying to explore different ways to scrub around a single wavetable (wave sequence). This actually seems relatively limited. You can loop back and forward. But the LFO and other modulation options seem to only dictate where ‘playhead’ starts and how fast it loops back and forward. You don’t seem to actually be able to move that playhead once the note has been triggered (eg move it forward or back by increments via the mod wheel). It seems like once you hit your note it’s just going to loop through and you can only control the speed that it travels at.

    Morphing between wave sequences is great though. Lots of options with the morph path thingy and with the joystick.

    Onwards :)....

  • @Matt_Fletcher_2000 said:

    @Jocphone said:
    was chuffed when iWavestation came to Gadget/iOS. But it soon fell in to disuse due to lack of time in working out its complex interface. Have picked it up again lately and am committing to try to get a good workflow between this and Xequence, and to really dig into iWavestation. I don't think there is much else like it and the effects are able to really bend the sound from it too.

    Made a patch last night.

    I’m starting to really ‘get’ the wavetable thing now.

    Each ‘wave sequence’ is basically like constructing your own wavetable.

    The thing is a patch can have 4 different wavetables, and a performance can have up to 8 patches! That’s 32 wavetables to layer and modulate between. (Europa inside Reason Compact has 2).

    However, I’m still trying to explore different ways to scrub around a single wavetable (wave sequence). This actually seems relatively limited. You can loop back and forward. But the LFO and other modulation options seem to only dictate where ‘playhead’ starts and how fast it loops back and forward. You don’t seem to actually be able to move that playhead once the note has been triggered (eg move it forward or back by increments via the mod wheel). It seems like once you hit your note it’s just going to loop through and you can only control the speed that it travels at.

    Morphing between wave sequences is great though. Lots of options with the morph path thingy and with the joystick.

    Onwards :)....

    I'm coming round to the idea that wave sequencing is more like granular synthesis only that the different little snippets lined up in a fairly static although like you said there are potentially 32 sequences to play with(?)

    But I like it because it is quite different from other noise makers and everything you put into it is in the toolbox already so it more a matter of tweaking things to achieve new effects. The stringing together of wave snippets in sequences is really quite addictive. I just wish that it was easier to switch between them without ending up at a random one. Although the randomiser itself is great I would like it to generate shorter sequences.

    It also borders on being it's own groove/percussion machine and that is something I want to explore further.

  • @Matt_Fletcher_2000 said:
    However, I’m still trying to explore different ways to scrub around a single wavetable (wave sequence). This actually seems relatively limited. You can loop back and forward. But the LFO and other modulation options seem to only dictate where ‘playhead’ starts and how fast it loops back and forward. You don’t seem to actually be able to move that playhead once the note has been triggered (eg move it forward or back by increments via the mod wheel). It seems like once you hit your note it’s just going to loop through and you can only control the speed that it travels at.

    You can scrub through waveseq by assigning it to modwheel and set it at 127.

    Though for some reason it’s not showing on screen (the active wave is not lighting up, as with normal waveseq playing). But you can hear it.

    You can also scrub through it with a controller by assigning a knob to ‘midi 1/2’.
    Another nice way is modulating the waveseq with ENV 1.

  • @R_2 said:

    @Matt_Fletcher_2000 said:
    However, I’m still trying to explore different ways to scrub around a single wavetable (wave sequence). This actually seems relatively limited. You can loop back and forward. But the LFO and other modulation options seem to only dictate where ‘playhead’ starts and how fast it loops back and forward. You don’t seem to actually be able to move that playhead once the note has been triggered (eg move it forward or back by increments via the mod wheel). It seems like once you hit your note it’s just going to loop through and you can only control the speed that it travels at.

    You can scrub through waveseq by assigning it to modwheel and set it at 127.

    Though for some reason it’s not showing on screen (the active wave is not lighting up, as with normal waveseq playing). But you can hear it.

    You can also scrub through it with a controller by assigning a knob to ‘midi 1/2’.
    Another nice way is modulating the waveseq with ENV 1.

    Thanks - i'll try the mod wheel thing. I need an external midi controller for that.

    How/where do you assign the cc for midi 1/2 please? And does that work within Gadget?

  • @R_2 said:

    @Matt_Fletcher_2000 said:
    However, I’m still trying to explore different ways to scrub around a single wavetable (wave sequence). This actually seems relatively limited. You can loop back and forward. But the LFO and other modulation options seem to only dictate where ‘playhead’ starts and how fast it loops back and forward. You don’t seem to actually be able to move that playhead once the note has been triggered (eg move it forward or back by increments via the mod wheel). It seems like once you hit your note it’s just going to loop through and you can only control the speed that it travels at.

    You can scrub through waveseq by assigning it to modwheel and set it at 127.

    Though for some reason it’s not showing on screen (the active wave is not lighting up, as with normal waveseq playing). But you can hear it.

    You can also scrub through it with a controller by assigning a knob to ‘midi 1/2’.
    Another nice way is modulating the waveseq with ENV 1.

    Hey, this is insane!
    Thanks a lot! :smiley:

  • @R_2: Do you know a way to make the waves cross-fade smoothly?
    When creating "triangles" by increasing attack and decay of each wave, scrubbing through them will add silence between each wave although from the level chart, it shouldn't.

  • @Matt_Fletcher_2000 said:
    Onwards :)....

    ..and upwards 👍
    Try to avoid the ‘random’ button, as you won’t learn much by hitting that.

  • @Matt_Fletcher_2000 said:

    @R_2 said:

    @Matt_Fletcher_2000 said:
    However, I’m still trying to explore different ways to scrub around a single wavetable (wave sequence). This actually seems relatively limited. You can loop back and forward. But the LFO and other modulation options seem to only dictate where ‘playhead’ starts and how fast it loops back and forward. You don’t seem to actually be able to move that playhead once the note has been triggered (eg move it forward or back by increments via the mod wheel). It seems like once you hit your note it’s just going to loop through and you can only control the speed that it travels at.

    You can scrub through waveseq by assigning it to modwheel and set it at 127.

    Though for some reason it’s not showing on screen (the active wave is not lighting up, as with normal waveseq playing). But you can hear it.

    You can also scrub through it with a controller by assigning a knob to ‘midi 1/2’.
    Another nice way is modulating the waveseq with ENV 1.

    Thanks - i'll try the mod wheel thing. I need an external midi controller for that.

    How/where do you assign the cc for midi 1/2 please? And does that work within Gadget?

    On iPad there’s a keyboard with modwheel, but I assume your on iPhone?
    CC for midi 1/2 are set in Menu > Settings.

    @rs2000 said:
    @R_2: Do you know a way to make the waves cross-fade smoothly?
    When creating "triangles" by increasing attack and decay of each wave, scrubbing through them will add silence between each wave although from the level chart, it shouldn't.

    Creating “triangles” by increasing the XFade should give smooth cross fades between waves in a sequence. I’m not hearing the ‘silence’ you mention.

  • @RUncELL said:

    @Matt_Fletcher_2000 said:
    Onwards :)....

    ..and upwards 👍
    Try to avoid the ‘random’ button, as you won’t learn much by hitting that.

    Thanks. Yes, it always creates a kind of weird sliced up rhythm type thing that is kind of cool for some rhythmic texture, but isn’t a synth patch.

  • edited September 2018

    @R_2 said:

    @rs2000 said:
    @R_2: Do you know a way to make the waves cross-fade smoothly?
    When creating "triangles" by increasing attack and decay of each wave, scrubbing through them will add silence between each wave although from the level chart, it shouldn't.

    Creating “triangles” by increasing the XFade should give smooth cross fades between waves in a sequence. I’m not hearing the ‘silence’ you mention.

    Got it. By coincidence, I had non-looped decaying samples in every other slot, and when scrolling through them they were already silent - the difference between playing a keyboard-triggered wave sequence and scrubbing seems to be that during scrubbing, the samples are not re-triggered so it only works with looped samples...

  • Go, MF2k, go!

    Compared to my hardware Waveststion SR, iWavestation is a UI dream come true. Wish I could use it as a control surface for the hardware. Just like their App Store description said it could for the first 4 hours.

  • edited September 2018

    @rs2000 said:

    @R_2 said:

    @rs2000 said:
    @R_2: Do you know a way to make the waves cross-fade smoothly?
    When creating "triangles" by increasing attack and decay of each wave, scrubbing through them will add silence between each wave although from the level chart, it shouldn't.

    Creating “triangles” by increasing the XFade should give smooth cross fades between waves in a sequence. I’m not hearing the ‘silence’ you mention.

    Got it. By coincidence, I had non-looped decaying samples in every other slot, and when scrolling through them they were already silent - the difference between playing a keyboard-triggered wave sequence and scrubbing seems to be that during scrubbing, the samples are not re-triggered so it only works with looped samples...

    That's good to know. So you're saying that the scrubbing (via mod wheel or aftertouch etc.) does respect the cross-fades between wave samples? If so that's great.

    I tried myself and to be honest it was sounding pretty smooth - but then again the samples I was scrubbing around were pretty similar.

    Have been having fun mapping cc1 (mod wheel) to the y-axis of the keys on the Aftertouch app and using this to play expressively, messing with the wavetable position as I play and hold notes. In Gadget. Recorded as automation.

    So now the problem is one of enormity! There's so much possibility for creating crazy patches that have multiple wavetables morphing between each other plus being modulated as you play with the mod wheel. Not to mention being able to map other stuff to the joystick and LFOs etc... The challenge is not to end up with a muddy mess though, I guess.

    I need to figure out how to proceed! It seems to me that some Z3ta-like super modern aggressive bass or lead patches might be possible with iWavestation if it's programmed right and the right wave samples are used. Anyone already managed anything like this? (There's certainly nothing like this in the factory presets!). Interesting, digital sounding morphing drones also seem like a good thing to try.

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