tips for changing Presets in a live performance? why no midi Program Change? (attn: developers)

edited July 2018 in App Tips and Tricks

I'm really hoping to incorporate the ipad for live performances, but as it stands, not many Auv3 instruments support proper Program and Bank Change implementation via midi. This is hands down the biggest hurdle keeping me from using so many great Auv3's in a live performance.

There are surprisingly few that do can do it*, and as it turns out most of the synths I want to use don't accept them, or cause huge cpu spikes when changing (virsyn and moog)

To any performers using an ipad via midi control (sequencers, keyboards, etc): how are you changing presets when using many different plugins? is there some secret I'm missing? I'm using a hardware sequencer and it's a breeze to map cc to a controller so that I can play the parameters of different instruments in real time, and even sequence those changes. But if I want to change the preset of several instruments simultaneously, I can't seem to make this happen.. It takes several steps for each one - tapping each app, then scrolling through lists on a screen (which isn't very high on the list of things I want to be doing on stage)

Am I alone here? If so, am I SOL..? Any hope of Streambyter or some other tool helping me?

  • these are some that do accept PC: Beepstreet, Moog, Apesoft, Icegear, bs-16i, Syntronik, Yonac... a few others that exibit odd behavior (such as KQ Dixie - only the first 32 presets are accessible - even though most owners likely have thousands of presets).

-Auv3 that currently DON'T: Audio Damage (Quanta and Phosphor), Virsyn (they technically do, but very glitchy crashy), Ripplemaker!, Tardigrain, Poison-202, Volt, SynthMaster One (it's on the list of fixes), Alina String Ensemble. I'm sure there are others, but these are the ones I'm personally eyeing that I would use onstage if it was added.

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Comments

  • @palm said:
    I'm really hoping to incorporate the ipad for live performances, but as it stands, not many Auv3 instruments support proper Program and Bank Change implementation via midi. This is hands down the biggest hurdle keeping me from using so many great Auv3's in a live performance.

    There are surprisingly few that do can do it*, and as it turns out most of the synths I want to use don't accept them, or cause huge cpu spikes when changing (virsyn and moog)

    To any performers using an ipad via midi control (sequencers, keyboards, etc): how are you changing presets when using many different plugins? is there some secret I'm missing? I'm using a hardware sequencer and it's a breeze to map cc to a controller so that I can play the parameters of different instruments in real time, and even sequence those changes. But if I want to change the preset of several instruments simultaneously, I can't seem to make this happen.. It takes several steps for each one - tapping each app, then scrolling through lists on a screen (which isn't very high on the list of things I want to be doing on stage)

    Am I alone here? If so, am I SOL..? Any hope of Streambyter or some other tool helping me?

    • these are some that do accept PC: Beepstreet, Moog, Apesoft, Icegear, bs-16i, Syntronik, Yonac... a few others that exibit odd behavior (such as KQ Dixie - only the first 32 presets are accessible - even though most owners likely have thousands of presets).

    -Auv3 that currently DON'T: Audio Damage (Quanta and Phosphor), Virsyn (they technically do, but very glitchy crashy), Ripplemaker!, Tardigrain, Poison-202, Volt, SynthMaster One (it's on the list of fixes), Alina String Ensemble. I'm sure there are others, but these are the ones I'm personally eyeing that I would use onstage if it was added.

    Not a perfect solution, but for AUv3 you could load an instance for each preset you wish to use, and then control which is the current one by using Mute ? Which can be midi controlled in AUM ?

    Preset switching quickly and without glitching is a challenge even hardware synths suffer from albeit to a lesser extent.

  • edited July 2018

    yeah, if only my ipad pro (older 9.7") could handle that. It can barely handle the four or five synths I usually have running as it is (with patterning and a couple of fx running). Thanks for the idea, but that's just not going to work for a whole set's worth of program changes for a bunch of instruments.

    And loading separate AUM project files - that causes everything to stop while it loads, and usually incurs audio pops and such while opening channels.

    Hardware program changes are fairly seamless from my experience with both old and new midi instruments with patch storage. perhaps I've been lucky. I've used (and am using) many other hardware synths in the setup and those work simply and without a hiccup.

  • @palm said:
    yeah, if only my ipad pro (older 9.7") could handle that. It can barely handle the four or five synths I usually have running as it is (with patterning and a couple of fx running). Thanks for the idea, but that's just not going to work for a whole set's worth of program changes for a bunch of instruments.

    No it's not

    And loading separate AUM project files - that causes everything to stop while it loads, and usually incurs audio pops and such while opening channels.

    Yep

    Hardware program changes are fairly seamless from my experience with both old and new midi instruments with patch storage. perhaps I've been lucky. I've used (and am using) many other hardware synths in the setup and those work simply and without a hiccup.

    It depends a lot on when you are switching presets and how dense the notes or CC's being played on it at the time are. Most cope fairly well if the messages can be spaced out in the MIDI stream. It doesn't work well if you are sending 10 Program change messages and 10 Note On messages to those devices all at the same time during playback :D

    I am a fan of PC too, and would love for more apps to support it. Not sure though how it would affect the whole state saving of AUv3, if you start with one patch, then send a PC during a track, and then close the song file, the AUv3 will have its state saved with the second patch and then not be correct when loading the project again.
    Link does this to me with tempo all the time when trying to do multiple tracks during a performance, especially when each track uses multiple apps, it is fine for a single performance of a single track, but when you want to change to a different track, unless you do things in a very particular order, things go south pretty quickly :|, so far only AB has been able to help with this, but you have some of the same issues as with AUM in that you've got to stop playback and have loading time each time you want to swap tracks.

  • @palm said:
    I'm really hoping to incorporate the ipad for live performances, but as it stands, not many Auv3 instruments support proper Program and Bank Change implementation via midi. This is hands down the biggest hurdle keeping me from using so many great Auv3's in a live performance.

    There are surprisingly few that do can do it*, and as it turns out most of the synths I want to use don't accept them, or cause huge cpu spikes when changing (virsyn and moog)

    To any performers using an ipad via midi control (sequencers, keyboards, etc): how are you changing presets when using many different plugins? is there some secret I'm missing? I'm using a hardware sequencer and it's a breeze to map cc to a controller so that I can play the parameters of different instruments in real time, and even sequence those changes. But if I want to change the preset of several instruments simultaneously, I can't seem to make this happen.. It takes several steps for each one - tapping each app, then scrolling through lists on a screen (which isn't very high on the list of things I want to be doing on stage)

    Am I alone here? If so, am I SOL..? Any hope of Streambyter or some other tool helping me?

    • these are some that do accept PC: Beepstreet, Moog, Apesoft, Icegear, bs-16i, Syntronik, Yonac... a few others that exibit odd behavior (such as KQ Dixie - only the first 32 presets are accessible - even though most owners likely have thousands of presets).

    -Auv3 that currently DON'T: Audio Damage (Quanta and Phosphor), Virsyn (they technically do, but very glitchy crashy), Ripplemaker!, Tardigrain, Poison-202, Volt, SynthMaster One (it's on the list of fixes), Alina String Ensemble. I'm sure there are others, but these are the ones I'm personally eyeing that I would use onstage if it was added.

    I like to play solo/mute games and just have certain channels with certain settings already.

    To avoid issues.

    Just me.

    I do that with incoming audio to an iPad.

    I have pre set channels with diff Fx set ups and then just fade/solo/mute in lieu of changing or adjusting a bunch of Fx apps on the fly.

    I also have Novation Circuit coming in that way

  • @AndyPlankton said:

    @palm said:
    yeah, if only my ipad pro (older 9.7") could handle that. It can barely handle the four or five synths I usually have running as it is (with patterning and a couple of fx running). Thanks for the idea, but that's just not going to work for a whole set's worth of program changes for a bunch of instruments.

    No it's not

    And loading separate AUM project files - that causes everything to stop while it loads, and usually incurs audio pops and such while opening channels.

    Yep

    Hardware program changes are fairly seamless from my experience with both old and new midi instruments with patch storage. perhaps I've been lucky. I've used (and am using) many other hardware synths in the setup and those work simply and without a hiccup.

    It depends a lot on when you are switching presets and how dense the notes or CC's being played on it at the time are. Most cope fairly well if the messages can be spaced out in the MIDI stream. It doesn't work well if you are sending 10 Program change messages and 10 Note On messages to those devices all at the same time during playback :D

    I am a fan of PC too, and would love for more apps to support it. Not sure though how it would affect the whole state saving of AUv3, if you start with one patch, then send a PC during a track, and then close the song file, the AUv3 will have its state saved with the second patch and then not be correct when loading the project again.
    Link does this to me with tempo all the time when trying to do multiple tracks during a performance, especially when each track uses multiple apps, it is fine for a single performance of a single track, but when you want to change to a different track, unless you do things in a very particular order, things go south pretty quickly :|, so far only AB has been able to help with this, but you have some of the same issues as with AUM in that you've got to stop playback and have loading time each time you want to swap tracks.

    Thanks for the detailed reply.

    Yes, I have had some midi bottlenecking in the past, but never really with program changes. It hasn't been an issue in my current setup.

    As for the state saving thing, I don't think that's an issue at all here. It doesn't really matter what the patch is when the file gets opened or closed. The only issue I've run into with certain plugins (ahem.. virsyn!) is that the UI doesn't update and then crashes if you touch any of the controls.
    But aside from that, I haven't run into any problems with with projects as a whole. The file just opens up as it was saved. The sequencer I'm using calls up the patches for each midi channel as sequences are triggered and everything runs smoothly. Same goes for any other parameter changes within the project. Simply opens in the state it was last saved at.

    Imho, a big part of the problem is that there are some incredible, professional grade Auv3's out there, but the lack of Program Change is keeping them off of the stage. Clearly we're still in early days - I still meet a lot of musicians who scoff at the idea of using an ipad as a real instrument. It's little things like adding PC messages that will really make performers and working musicians stop and consider that these apps are more than just toys.

    I love that all of this stuff is available to the bedroom dabbler at such a fair price. I hope that developers realize that if they consider the needs of performers as well, they will likely sell more apps and hasten the acceptance of iOS as a pro music environment.

  • @RUST( i )K said:

    @palm said:
    I'm really hoping to incorporate the ipad for live performances, but as it stands, not many Auv3 instruments support proper Program and Bank Change implementation via midi. This is hands down the biggest hurdle keeping me from using so many great Auv3's in a live performance.

    There are surprisingly few that do can do it*, and as it turns out most of the synths I want to use don't accept them, or cause huge cpu spikes when changing (virsyn and moog)

    To any performers using an ipad via midi control (sequencers, keyboards, etc): how are you changing presets when using many different plugins? is there some secret I'm missing? I'm using a hardware sequencer and it's a breeze to map cc to a controller so that I can play the parameters of different instruments in real time, and even sequence those changes. But if I want to change the preset of several instruments simultaneously, I can't seem to make this happen.. It takes several steps for each one - tapping each app, then scrolling through lists on a screen (which isn't very high on the list of things I want to be doing on stage)

    Am I alone here? If so, am I SOL..? Any hope of Streambyter or some other tool helping me?

    • these are some that do accept PC: Beepstreet, Moog, Apesoft, Icegear, bs-16i, Syntronik, Yonac... a few others that exibit odd behavior (such as KQ Dixie - only the first 32 presets are accessible - even though most owners likely have thousands of presets).

    -Auv3 that currently DON'T: Audio Damage (Quanta and Phosphor), Virsyn (they technically do, but very glitchy crashy), Ripplemaker!, Tardigrain, Poison-202, Volt, SynthMaster One (it's on the list of fixes), Alina String Ensemble. I'm sure there are others, but these are the ones I'm personally eyeing that I would use onstage if it was added.

    I like to play solo/mute games and just have certain channels with certain settings already.

    To avoid issues.

    Just me.

    I do that with incoming audio to an iPad.

    I have pre set channels with diff Fx set ups and then just fade/solo/mute in lieu of changing or adjusting a bunch of Fx apps on the fly.

    I also have Novation Circuit coming in that way

    I'm realizing that my setup is perhaps unconventional. I'm running my hardware synths through channels in AUM so I can use an FX bus controlled by a midi controller, all of which is controlled by a hardware sequencer which is being fed by a midi controller for midi input. I'm running several Auv3 synths and Patterning alongside the hardware synths and trying to construct whole sets without overloading the CPU. So it's a balancing act.
    My stuff can get a bit dense/textural, so I like having lots of options. if I were to have every patch saved on a channel, I'd have totally unmanageable projects and it would overload the CPU.

    Maybe I'm just asking too much of the platform at this early stage. I'm just so eager for it to get there. It seems so close. And when instruments are there with the glaring omission of a simple way to change patches, it really irks me.. sorry to be a broken record. I just hope some savvy developers get the message. :)

  • @palm said:

    @AndyPlankton said:

    @palm said:
    yeah, if only my ipad pro (older 9.7") could handle that. It can barely handle the four or five synths I usually have running as it is (with patterning and a couple of fx running). Thanks for the idea, but that's just not going to work for a whole set's worth of program changes for a bunch of instruments.

    No it's not

    And loading separate AUM project files - that causes everything to stop while it loads, and usually incurs audio pops and such while opening channels.

    Yep

    Hardware program changes are fairly seamless from my experience with both old and new midi instruments with patch storage. perhaps I've been lucky. I've used (and am using) many other hardware synths in the setup and those work simply and without a hiccup.

    It depends a lot on when you are switching presets and how dense the notes or CC's being played on it at the time are. Most cope fairly well if the messages can be spaced out in the MIDI stream. It doesn't work well if you are sending 10 Program change messages and 10 Note On messages to those devices all at the same time during playback :D

    I am a fan of PC too, and would love for more apps to support it. Not sure though how it would affect the whole state saving of AUv3, if you start with one patch, then send a PC during a track, and then close the song file, the AUv3 will have its state saved with the second patch and then not be correct when loading the project again.
    Link does this to me with tempo all the time when trying to do multiple tracks during a performance, especially when each track uses multiple apps, it is fine for a single performance of a single track, but when you want to change to a different track, unless you do things in a very particular order, things go south pretty quickly :|, so far only AB has been able to help with this, but you have some of the same issues as with AUM in that you've got to stop playback and have loading time each time you want to swap tracks.

    Thanks for the detailed reply.

    Yes, I have had some midi bottlenecking in the past, but never really with program changes. It hasn't been an issue in my current setup.

    As for the state saving thing, I don't think that's an issue at all here. It doesn't really matter what the patch is when the file gets opened or closed. The only issue I've run into with certain plugins (ahem.. virsyn!) is that the UI doesn't update and then crashes if you touch any of the controls.
    But aside from that, I haven't run into any problems with with projects as a whole. The file just opens up as it was saved. The sequencer I'm using calls up the patches for each midi channel as sequences are triggered and everything runs smoothly. Same goes for any other parameter changes within the project. Simply opens in the state it was last saved at.

    Yeah, if you are sending program change every time then state saving would not be an issue.

    Imho, a big part of the problem is that there are some incredible, professional grade Auv3's out there, but the lack of Program Change is keeping them off of the stage. Clearly we're still in early days - I still meet a lot of musicians who scoff at the idea of using an ipad as a real instrument. It's little things like adding PC messages that will really make performers and working musicians stop and consider that these apps are more than just toys.

    Agreed, Program Change is a basic MIDI thing that should be incorporated, I think the reason it is not is that MIDI was an afterthought for iOS apps initially, devs expected people to do everything from the iPad itself, then controllers started to appear, and onlt recently have these been wireless, this has lead to more and more apps support MIDI in for notes and CC's (not sure if any cope with NRPN, Hi-res CC's, and sysex.
    Users started to request being able to swap presets from their controllers which has lead to some synths now supporting PC.
    With regard to AUv3 in this aspect, the recommended way for a host to communicate with an AUv3 is via AU Parameters, and it is meant to be the job of the host to support receiving MIDI and converting that to AU Parameters, AUv3 should provide a 'Preset select' AU parameter that could then be mapped to Program change via the Host.
    As more and more people try to use this stuff for live performance (I do but I am generally the audience too :D ) and devs receive more requests for it, then I am sure it will start to happen.

    I love that all of this stuff is available to the bedroom dabbler at such a fair price. I hope that developers realize that if they consider the needs of performers as well, they will likely sell more apps and hasten the acceptance of iOS as a pro music environment.

    I'm sure it will progress to that, just like laptops did, there was a time when no-one would trust a laptop on stage too ;)

  • @palm said:

    @RUST( i )K said:

    @palm said:
    I'm really hoping to incorporate the ipad for live performances, but as it stands, not many Auv3 instruments support proper Program and Bank Change implementation via midi. This is hands down the biggest hurdle keeping me from using so many great Auv3's in a live performance.

    There are surprisingly few that do can do it*, and as it turns out most of the synths I want to use don't accept them, or cause huge cpu spikes when changing (virsyn and moog)

    To any performers using an ipad via midi control (sequencers, keyboards, etc): how are you changing presets when using many different plugins? is there some secret I'm missing? I'm using a hardware sequencer and it's a breeze to map cc to a controller so that I can play the parameters of different instruments in real time, and even sequence those changes. But if I want to change the preset of several instruments simultaneously, I can't seem to make this happen.. It takes several steps for each one - tapping each app, then scrolling through lists on a screen (which isn't very high on the list of things I want to be doing on stage)

    Am I alone here? If so, am I SOL..? Any hope of Streambyter or some other tool helping me?

    • these are some that do accept PC: Beepstreet, Moog, Apesoft, Icegear, bs-16i, Syntronik, Yonac... a few others that exibit odd behavior (such as KQ Dixie - only the first 32 presets are accessible - even though most owners likely have thousands of presets).

    -Auv3 that currently DON'T: Audio Damage (Quanta and Phosphor), Virsyn (they technically do, but very glitchy crashy), Ripplemaker!, Tardigrain, Poison-202, Volt, SynthMaster One (it's on the list of fixes), Alina String Ensemble. I'm sure there are others, but these are the ones I'm personally eyeing that I would use onstage if it was added.

    I like to play solo/mute games and just have certain channels with certain settings already.

    To avoid issues.

    Just me.

    I do that with incoming audio to an iPad.

    I have pre set channels with diff Fx set ups and then just fade/solo/mute in lieu of changing or adjusting a bunch of Fx apps on the fly.

    I also have Novation Circuit coming in that way

    I'm realizing that my setup is perhaps unconventional. I'm running my hardware synths through channels in AUM so I can use an FX bus controlled by a midi controller, all of which is controlled by a hardware sequencer which is being fed by a midi controller for midi input. I'm running several Auv3 synths and Patterning alongside the hardware synths and trying to construct whole sets without overloading the CPU. So it's a balancing act.
    My stuff can get a bit dense/textural, so I like having lots of options. if I were to have every patch saved on a channel, I'd have totally unmanageable projects and it would overload the CPU.

    Maybe I'm just asking too much of the platform at this early stage. I'm just so eager for it to get there. It seems so close. And when instruments are there with the glaring omission of a simple way to change patches, it really irks me.. sorry to be a broken record. I just hope some savvy developers get the message. :)

    Your setup sounds very conventional to me :)
    With regard iOS specifically, it is capable of doing so many things and performing so many roles in a setup that we often ask it to do too much at the same time on a single device. I wish i had 10 iPads and 10 iPhones sometimes :)
    It is as you say a balancing act, and a matter of finding the sweet spot for your own purpose.
    Program Change would certainly help reduce the amount of resources/screen interactions required for a performance.

  • @palm said:

    @RUST( i )K said:

    @palm said:
    I'm really hoping to incorporate the ipad for live performances, but as it stands, not many Auv3 instruments support proper Program and Bank Change implementation via midi. This is hands down the biggest hurdle keeping me from using so many great Auv3's in a live performance.

    There are surprisingly few that do can do it*, and as it turns out most of the synths I want to use don't accept them, or cause huge cpu spikes when changing (virsyn and moog)

    To any performers using an ipad via midi control (sequencers, keyboards, etc): how are you changing presets when using many different plugins? is there some secret I'm missing? I'm using a hardware sequencer and it's a breeze to map cc to a controller so that I can play the parameters of different instruments in real time, and even sequence those changes. But if I want to change the preset of several instruments simultaneously, I can't seem to make this happen.. It takes several steps for each one - tapping each app, then scrolling through lists on a screen (which isn't very high on the list of things I want to be doing on stage)

    Am I alone here? If so, am I SOL..? Any hope of Streambyter or some other tool helping me?

    • these are some that do accept PC: Beepstreet, Moog, Apesoft, Icegear, bs-16i, Syntronik, Yonac... a few others that exibit odd behavior (such as KQ Dixie - only the first 32 presets are accessible - even though most owners likely have thousands of presets).

    -Auv3 that currently DON'T: Audio Damage (Quanta and Phosphor), Virsyn (they technically do, but very glitchy crashy), Ripplemaker!, Tardigrain, Poison-202, Volt, SynthMaster One (it's on the list of fixes), Alina String Ensemble. I'm sure there are others, but these are the ones I'm personally eyeing that I would use onstage if it was added.

    I like to play solo/mute games and just have certain channels with certain settings already.

    To avoid issues.

    Just me.

    I do that with incoming audio to an iPad.

    I have pre set channels with diff Fx set ups and then just fade/solo/mute in lieu of changing or adjusting a bunch of Fx apps on the fly.

    I also have Novation Circuit coming in that way

    I'm realizing that my setup is perhaps unconventional. I'm running my hardware synths through channels in AUM so I can use an FX bus controlled by a midi controller, all of which is controlled by a hardware sequencer which is being fed by a midi controller for midi input.

    Whenever I’ve tried to run Circuit into any of my audio interfaces the latency would make it unbearable to work with.

  • @supadom said:

    @palm said:

    @RUST( i )K said:

    @palm said:
    I'm really hoping to incorporate the ipad for live performances, but as it stands, not many Auv3 instruments support proper Program and Bank Change implementation via midi. This is hands down the biggest hurdle keeping me from using so many great Auv3's in a live performance.

    There are surprisingly few that do can do it*, and as it turns out most of the synths I want to use don't accept them, or cause huge cpu spikes when changing (virsyn and moog)

    To any performers using an ipad via midi control (sequencers, keyboards, etc): how are you changing presets when using many different plugins? is there some secret I'm missing? I'm using a hardware sequencer and it's a breeze to map cc to a controller so that I can play the parameters of different instruments in real time, and even sequence those changes. But if I want to change the preset of several instruments simultaneously, I can't seem to make this happen.. It takes several steps for each one - tapping each app, then scrolling through lists on a screen (which isn't very high on the list of things I want to be doing on stage)

    Am I alone here? If so, am I SOL..? Any hope of Streambyter or some other tool helping me?

    • these are some that do accept PC: Beepstreet, Moog, Apesoft, Icegear, bs-16i, Syntronik, Yonac... a few others that exibit odd behavior (such as KQ Dixie - only the first 32 presets are accessible - even though most owners likely have thousands of presets).

    -Auv3 that currently DON'T: Audio Damage (Quanta and Phosphor), Virsyn (they technically do, but very glitchy crashy), Ripplemaker!, Tardigrain, Poison-202, Volt, SynthMaster One (it's on the list of fixes), Alina String Ensemble. I'm sure there are others, but these are the ones I'm personally eyeing that I would use onstage if it was added.

    I like to play solo/mute games and just have certain channels with certain settings already.

    To avoid issues.

    Just me.

    I do that with incoming audio to an iPad.

    I have pre set channels with diff Fx set ups and then just fade/solo/mute in lieu of changing or adjusting a bunch of Fx apps on the fly.

    I also have Novation Circuit coming in that way

    I'm realizing that my setup is perhaps unconventional. I'm running my hardware synths through channels in AUM so I can use an FX bus controlled by a midi controller, all of which is controlled by a hardware sequencer which is being fed by a midi controller for midi input.

    Whenever I’ve tried to run Circuit into any of my audio interfaces the latency would make it unbearable to work with.

    If you can run at a low buffersize I find it just about workable, however I generally direct monitor Circuit, and my other outboard stuff through my behringer mixer. I'll re-route through audio interface if I want to record, where I can then adjust the recorded audio afterwards.

  • @supadom said:

    @palm said:

    @RUST( i )K said:

    @palm said:
    I'm really hoping to incorporate the ipad for live performances, but as it stands, not many Auv3 instruments support proper Program and Bank Change implementation via midi. This is hands down the biggest hurdle keeping me from using so many great Auv3's in a live performance.

    There are surprisingly few that do can do it*, and as it turns out most of the synths I want to use don't accept them, or cause huge cpu spikes when changing (virsyn and moog)

    To any performers using an ipad via midi control (sequencers, keyboards, etc): how are you changing presets when using many different plugins? is there some secret I'm missing? I'm using a hardware sequencer and it's a breeze to map cc to a controller so that I can play the parameters of different instruments in real time, and even sequence those changes. But if I want to change the preset of several instruments simultaneously, I can't seem to make this happen.. It takes several steps for each one - tapping each app, then scrolling through lists on a screen (which isn't very high on the list of things I want to be doing on stage)

    Am I alone here? If so, am I SOL..? Any hope of Streambyter or some other tool helping me?

    • these are some that do accept PC: Beepstreet, Moog, Apesoft, Icegear, bs-16i, Syntronik, Yonac... a few others that exibit odd behavior (such as KQ Dixie - only the first 32 presets are accessible - even though most owners likely have thousands of presets).

    -Auv3 that currently DON'T: Audio Damage (Quanta and Phosphor), Virsyn (they technically do, but very glitchy crashy), Ripplemaker!, Tardigrain, Poison-202, Volt, SynthMaster One (it's on the list of fixes), Alina String Ensemble. I'm sure there are others, but these are the ones I'm personally eyeing that I would use onstage if it was added.

    I like to play solo/mute games and just have certain channels with certain settings already.

    To avoid issues.

    Just me.

    I do that with incoming audio to an iPad.

    I have pre set channels with diff Fx set ups and then just fade/solo/mute in lieu of changing or adjusting a bunch of Fx apps on the fly.

    I also have Novation Circuit coming in that way

    I'm realizing that my setup is perhaps unconventional. I'm running my hardware synths through channels in AUM so I can use an FX bus controlled by a midi controller, all of which is controlled by a hardware sequencer which is being fed by a midi controller for midi input.

    Whenever I’ve tried to run Circuit into any of my audio interfaces the latency would make it unbearable to work with.

    I'm using an iconnectaudio4+ with AUM on a 9.7" ipad pro. Latency is negligible with the buffer at 512 or lower.

  • @palm said:

    @supadom said:

    @palm said:

    @RUST( i )K said:

    @palm said:
    I'm really hoping to incorporate the ipad for live performances, but as it stands, not many Auv3 instruments support proper Program and Bank Change implementation via midi. This is hands down the biggest hurdle keeping me from using so many great Auv3's in a live performance.

    There are surprisingly few that do can do it*, and as it turns out most of the synths I want to use don't accept them, or cause huge cpu spikes when changing (virsyn and moog)

    To any performers using an ipad via midi control (sequencers, keyboards, etc): how are you changing presets when using many different plugins? is there some secret I'm missing? I'm using a hardware sequencer and it's a breeze to map cc to a controller so that I can play the parameters of different instruments in real time, and even sequence those changes. But if I want to change the preset of several instruments simultaneously, I can't seem to make this happen.. It takes several steps for each one - tapping each app, then scrolling through lists on a screen (which isn't very high on the list of things I want to be doing on stage)

    Am I alone here? If so, am I SOL..? Any hope of Streambyter or some other tool helping me?

    • these are some that do accept PC: Beepstreet, Moog, Apesoft, Icegear, bs-16i, Syntronik, Yonac... a few others that exibit odd behavior (such as KQ Dixie - only the first 32 presets are accessible - even though most owners likely have thousands of presets).

    -Auv3 that currently DON'T: Audio Damage (Quanta and Phosphor), Virsyn (they technically do, but very glitchy crashy), Ripplemaker!, Tardigrain, Poison-202, Volt, SynthMaster One (it's on the list of fixes), Alina String Ensemble. I'm sure there are others, but these are the ones I'm personally eyeing that I would use onstage if it was added.

    I like to play solo/mute games and just have certain channels with certain settings already.

    To avoid issues.

    Just me.

    I do that with incoming audio to an iPad.

    I have pre set channels with diff Fx set ups and then just fade/solo/mute in lieu of changing or adjusting a bunch of Fx apps on the fly.

    I also have Novation Circuit coming in that way

    I'm realizing that my setup is perhaps unconventional. I'm running my hardware synths through channels in AUM so I can use an FX bus controlled by a midi controller, all of which is controlled by a hardware sequencer which is being fed by a midi controller for midi input.

    Whenever I’ve tried to run Circuit into any of my audio interfaces the latency would make it unbearable to work with.

    I'm using an iconnectaudio4+ with AUM on a 9.7" ipad pro. Latency is negligible with the buffer at 512 or lower.

    Wow. Are you sure you’re not running it via direct monitoring or some kind of audio through Iconnect gimmicery? When playing the lowest I can tollerate it 256 but go 128 if I can help it. I play quite rhythmically so that might be why I’m so fussy.

    I’ve had several interfaces and they all gave me similar results. I’m wondering whether I’m routing something wrong. I’ll do some testing tomorrow.

  • yup. I'm a rhythm head too, and the latency is very low to the point where it is the least of my worries. and yeah, when I can afford to run at 128 I do so that things are nice and snappy, but sometimes that leads to crackles and pops :D

  • edited July 2018

    @palm you might be interested by this:
    https://forum.audiob.us/discussion/3894/bank-select-via-midi-ios-synths#latest

    And yeah 1 billion times agree that PC are a must have in any IOS synth...begging for that for ever...

    The only sequencer on iPad that could manage (send) and easy to use, to my knowledge, is Modstep, I'd love to have this feature in Beat Maker 3...Hopefully in the incoming 3.1 version...

    Also, as a "tip" iMidiPatchBay is quite a good solution to load (if accepted...) a preset while you want to access live some sounds quickly.

  • edited July 2018

    @palm said:
    I'm really hoping to incorporate the ipad for live performances, but as it stands, not many Auv3 instruments support proper Program and Bank Change implementation via midi. This is hands down the biggest hurdle keeping me from using so many great Auv3's in a live performance.

    There are surprisingly few that do can do it*, and as it turns out most of the synths I want to use don't accept them, or cause huge cpu spikes when changing (virsyn and moog)

    Sadly, "The struggle is real".

    To any performers using an ipad via midi control (sequencers, keyboards, etc): how are you changing presets when using many different plugins? is there some secret I'm missing? I'm using a hardware sequencer and it's a breeze to map cc to a controller so that I can play the parameters of different instruments in real time, and even sequence those changes. But if I want to change the preset of several instruments simultaneously, I can't seem to make this happen.. It takes several steps for each one - tapping each app, then scrolling through lists on a screen (which isn't very high on the list of things I want to be doing on stage)

    Am I alone here? If so, am I SOL..? Any hope of Streambyter or some other tool helping me?

    • these are some that do accept PC: Beepstreet, Moog, Apesoft, Icegear, bs-16i, Syntronik, Yonac... a few others that exibit odd behavior (such as KQ Dixie - only the first 32 presets are accessible - even though most owners likely have thousands of presets).

    -Auv3 that currently DON'T: Audio Damage (Quanta and Phosphor), Virsyn (they technically do, but very glitchy crashy), Ripplemaker!, Tardigrain, Poison-202, Volt, SynthMaster One (it's on the list of fixes), Alina String Ensemble. I'm sure there are others, but these are the ones I'm personally eyeing that I would use onstage if it was added.

    DISCLAIMER: I cant speak to Auv3 as I dont use it, but I will say that I have tried iMIDIPatchBay and found it lacking for what I wanted. If I didnt need lyrics I would probably skip OnSong just use AUM or AB3.

    Crony mentioned the topic I was going to link -> https://forum.audiob.us/discussion/3894/bank-select-via-midi-ios-synths/p1

    I would start there.

    I have the following setup on stage:

    Controller: Roland AX-7 Keytar
    Wireless MIDI: Yamaha MD-BT01 Bluetooth MIDI Adapter
    Hardware: 2017 iPad (Gen 5)
    "Middleware": OnSong for Lyrics, setlist management and and master MIDI changes
    Apps: iM1, Poison-202, iMono/Poly, FM Player, DM1, Model D

    Each app is set to listen on a different channel. iM1 is actually using 2 channels since its the core of my setup

    The Keytar is set to send MIDI PC changes to the apps directly but I also use OnSong which with an IAP allows you to send the same PC messages to your synths. When I flip to a song, it sends the required PC changes to the app(s).

    I have been very selective as to what I buy: no PC support? no purchase.

  • And what about using midiflow to parse those midi messages?

  • Have you seen http://www.camelotpro.com, discussed here and here on the forum? I am beta testing and it is capable of changing AU3 instances (i.e., presets) on a per-song or per-set basis. Might be the solution you're seeking.

  • edited July 2018

    Interesting...

    Don't get me wrong, I love innovation, but I'm a bit bored of "all in one host app"...
    Audiobus 1,2,3,4, 10... AUM, BM3, Modstep etc...They all are THE host, and they all are missing program change...
    Obviously as "Host's devs" don't show the lead on that point, synth apps dev does not follow either...

    I can tell you that if PC where in standard in all hosts, we were not begging for them for each app.
    But no, Audiobus is the new standard, then IAA, then AUv3, then Link for the clock...

    Modstep handles them, true, but no update for ages, missing some stuffs like undo/redo, with a complicated sequencer, but still seems, to me, the most robust solution I had, all midi there, host with AUM.

    BM3 is drifting from Link, and guess what ? No midi clock till now...
    But huge sequencer live, very versatile and fun to play...
    Audiobus ? Well, great stuffs, but still missing PC, and mixtable no control with midi...God...
    AUM seems the most stable solution, as a mixer and host, then, PC are missing, but here it's less boring as the other hosts as it does not sequence...

    Other problem with all these great hosts, is that switching (and also launching new apps to organize yours sounds, so less ram...) result with lags, glitches, no perfect sync, crash etc...
    Handling Program Change ? Why ? It's an outdated technology that it is just robust could be used in any technology you add on top IAA, AUv3 , whatever...

    Hey guys, I invented a new wheel, it's a square !
    Buy it now, you'll see after 24523 updates, and 25 additional apps it's far better than a stupid circle...

    Good night :)

  • Perhaps the coming Camelot app is a solution?
    camelotpro.com/

  • edited July 2018

    Perhaps not. :D

    Program Change are, for decades.

  • @rtuckr said:
    Have you seen http://www.camelotpro.com, discussed here and here on the forum? I am beta testing and it is capable of changing AU3 instances (i.e., presets) on a per-song or per-set basis. Might be the solution you're seeking.

    signed up for the beta a while ago but never heard back.. can it change programs on instruments that don't accept PC messages?

    it looks cool, but it'd be overkill for what I'm trying to accomplish. All I need is the ability to change banks and programs per instrument from my hardware sequencer or midi keyboard. I seriously don't understand what developers imagine people are going to use their instruments for on stage without program changes.

    I'd rather not fuss with the touchscreen at all when playing live. if I did, I'd rather have synths etc in the background and have one playable touch interface in the foreground (something such as patterning, samplr, tc-data, geoshred, or spacecraft)

  • I don’t think you can blame the hosts, at least not totally. In theory, if it’s an AUv3 and if every parameter was exposed to the host, then the host could store fully recall-able presets. But, that would only be for AUv3’s, and only if they expose all of their parameters. I think in order for PC to work, the apps themselves need to support it, and they also need to handle them gracefully.

    A director can tell the choir what to sing, but if they don’t know the songs or how to sing it ain’t gonna go so well.

  • One thing I’ll throw out is that after all this time of users requesting 1) PC change and 2) Link support in a couple of DAWs, is there has to be a really good reason why it hasn’t been implemented. And my gut tells me that devs are up against limitations of the hardware.
    Just in this thread there are many mentions of the cpu spikes or audio issues in the few apps that do support PC - and since that seems to be something that pushes the hardware beyond reliable response, shit if it was me I would probably not include support for it either. Just imagine the response here if an included feature didn’t work.... right? As it is, just getting things to work in IAA or AUv3 does not seem like an easy thing to achieve for most of our devs.
    And I have to think it’s a hardware limitation. As far as I can tell, the iPad was developed in response to the App Store response of early iPhone owners and was never designed to compete, specifically, with MacBooks or PCs (regardless of recent marketing). I’ll also venture that (as happened in the early days of personal computers) that musicians ask and expect hardware performance well beyond what can really be achieved. But devs, from that era or this, have to face the limitations of the hardware. I’ll also throw out a guess that the kind of iPad owners that frequent this forum, looking to build elaborate AUM/apeMatrix/AB3 setups are pushing iPad hardware harder than any other market niche - while, most unfortunately, we represent the smallest market niche for Apple’s iPad strategy.
    I think it’s clear from the gigging musicians that have posted here that an iPad has a place in a live setup, but that comes with an understanding of what it can do and it’s limitations. And I think our devs are doing everything they can to push the iPad to its limits, but that line is drawn by Apple’s hardware. And with respect to all the musicians here, bringing the right hardware to a gig to please your audience is on you - if the iPad can’t cut it as it is then that’s your choice.

  • @MikeyP said:

    @palm said:
    I'm really hoping to incorporate the ipad for live performances, but as it stands, not many Auv3 instruments support proper Program and Bank Change implementation via midi. This is hands down the biggest hurdle keeping me from using so many great Auv3's in a live performance.

    There are surprisingly few that do can do it*, and as it turns out most of the synths I want to use don't accept them, or cause huge cpu spikes when changing (virsyn and moog)

    Sadly, "The struggle is real".

    To any performers using an ipad via midi control (sequencers, keyboards, etc): how are you changing presets when using many different plugins? is there some secret I'm missing? I'm using a hardware sequencer and it's a breeze to map cc to a controller so that I can play the parameters of different instruments in real time, and even sequence those changes. But if I want to change the preset of several instruments simultaneously, I can't seem to make this happen.. It takes several steps for each one - tapping each app, then scrolling through lists on a screen (which isn't very high on the list of things I want to be doing on stage)

    Am I alone here? If so, am I SOL..? Any hope of Streambyter or some other tool helping me?

    • these are some that do accept PC: Beepstreet, Moog, Apesoft, Icegear, bs-16i, Syntronik, Yonac... a few others that exibit odd behavior (such as KQ Dixie - only the first 32 presets are accessible - even though most owners likely have thousands of presets).

    -Auv3 that currently DON'T: Audio Damage (Quanta and Phosphor), Virsyn (they technically do, but very glitchy crashy), Ripplemaker!, Tardigrain, Poison-202, Volt, SynthMaster One (it's on the list of fixes), Alina String Ensemble. I'm sure there are others, but these are the ones I'm personally eyeing that I would use onstage if it was added.

    DISCLAIMER: I cant speak to Auv3 as I dont use it, but I will say that I have tried iMIDIPatchBay and found it lacking for what I wanted. If I didnt need lyrics I would probably skip OnSong just use AUM or AB3.

    Crony mentioned the topic I was going to link -> https://forum.audiob.us/discussion/3894/bank-select-via-midi-ios-synths/p1

    I would start there.

    I have the following setup on stage:

    Controller: Roland AX-7 Keytar
    Wireless MIDI: Yamaha MD-BT01 Bluetooth MIDI Adapter
    Hardware: 2017 iPad (Gen 5)
    "Middleware": OnSong for Lyrics, setlist management and and master MIDI changes
    Apps: iM1, Poison-202, iMono/Poly, FM Player, DM1, Model D

    Each app is set to listen on a different channel. iM1 is actually using 2 channels since its the core of my setup

    The Keytar is set to send MIDI PC changes to the apps directly but I also use OnSong which with an IAP allows you to send the same PC messages to your synths. When I flip to a song, it sends the required PC changes to the app(s).

    I have been very selective as to what I buy: no PC support? no purchase.

    yeah, I was hopeful about imidipatchbay, but it won't do what I need it to either.

    I think the "no PC support = no purchase" rule is one that I'm going to have to start sticking . No point in investing time and money into an app I can't actually

  • @wigglelights said:
    One thing I’ll throw out is that after all this time of users requesting 1) PC change and 2) Link support in a couple of DAWs, is there has to be a really good reason why it hasn’t been implemented. And my gut tells me that devs are up against limitations of the hardware.

    then how do you explain the Auv3's that implement it seamlessly and without cpu spikes? (beepstreet synths, moog, kq dixie, vatanator, bs-16i, etc)

    I’ll also throw out a guess that the kind of iPad owners that frequent this forum, looking to build elaborate AUM/apeMatrix/AB3 setups are pushing iPad hardware harder than any other market niche - while, most unfortunately, we represent the smallest market niche for Apple’s iPad strategy.

    yeah, but the problem here has nothing to do with pushing the hardware. Virsyn synths have cpu spikes when sending PC, while most plugins that do work with program changes do it smoothly and without a hitch. So it seems to me it's clearly a coding issue.
    Yeah, I realize most casual users aren't using their ipad for the hub of their live music setup. But it is absolutely capable of that. I can run Patterning, a handful of heavy duty synths and fx in AUM with complex midi routing, all without making much of a dent in the cpu on my older ipad pro 9.7".

    I think it’s clear from the gigging musicians that have posted here that an iPad has a place in a live setup, but that comes with an understanding of what it can do and it’s limitations.

    I think part of the problem is a communication breakdown. Developers aren't often themselves performing musicians, and the people doing beta testing are rarely performing musicians. So the simple things that are needed in the professional arsenal (such as full midi implementation) are often overlooked. It's simple as that. Again, there isn't a hardware limitation there. The ipad is fully capable of sending and receiving midi. I realize apple makes things hard with its proprietary bullshit, but the functionality exists on some instruments and not others, so I'm merely trying to communicate on a forum that many developers frequent in hopes to better the communication and get some feedback. I've found that emailing developers often feels like talking to a wall and there's usually more of a response here.

    And I think our devs are doing everything they can to push the iPad to its limits, but that line is drawn by Apple’s hardware. And with respect to all the musicians here, bringing the right hardware to a gig to please your audience is on you - if the iPad can’t cut it as it is then that’s your choice.

    and again... the ipad can cut it. it's a software issue.
    iOS works as a live instrument when using apps that were developed with the needs of live performers in mind.

  • Program Change are part of midi implementation since the beginning. It already provoked cpu pikes on old synths : it loads the patch !!!...That's a well known problem for AGES.

    But that can be managed...You load a patch at a certain time, while you know that the cpu can handle, not all patches at the same time...Or use multiple iPads...As it is something relative to the patch for each synth, it's our problem to find the right loading order.
    Any sequencer from the 80' handle them, and cpu at that time...lol...

    Camelot won't solve that problem.
    This is a great tool for studios or for musician that plays 1 track at the time, not continuously...
    It may help if they think of a kind of progressive mode, will they ? Almost sure they won't...

    If we don't have to open the app, load with a finger, which leads to cpu spike, lag, desync,, we can manage.

    Midi is not just in/out 16 channels and cc's.
    Give us f... PC, period. (please ;) )

  • wimwim
    edited July 2018

    Technical limitations can’t be a factor.

    • A Program Change message is just a midi message. The overhead to send or receive it is nothing.
    • The PC message does only one thing: tell an app (or hardware) to change to a different preset. If an app can change presets manually without CPU spikes then there is no reason it shouldn’t be able to do so on receipt of a PC message.
    • In fact, the overhead is way lighter. In a manual change the GUI has to be manipulated. It has to receive and process touch input and it has to update the screen to reflect the changes. Not only is there less UI overhead, but it also doesn’t have to be done at as high a priority.

    No, it’s just an outlook issue. Plugin makers haven’t prioritized it. DAW makers don’t see it as a huge need because not that many apps can accept it, and besides most probably don’t see themselves as producting a performance tool where liveprogram shanges really matter.

    Link for DAWs on the other hand is a big deal. Not only is it more complicated midi-wise to try to be a slave when running a bunch of other tasks (such as recording!), but if there’s any audio then it requires real-time stretch. Now there’s a technical challenge for iOS for sure. Kudos for BM3 pulling it off as well as they have.

  • @crony said:

    hah, perfect.

  • I have a first gen iPad Pro 12" and use separate AUM files. No pop or crackles when switching and everything loads pretty quickly, 4-5 synths and a drum machine. Still have to manually switch the drum machine song and microkorg presets. When performing live I reorder the files into the set order. I think sending program change messages to 4-5 synths per song would actually be more complicated.

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