PSA: Don't update to iOS 12.4 if you use apps in AB output slot or IAA apps that use the mic.
https://forum.audiob.us/discussion/34030/urgent-psa-hold-off-updating-to-ios-12-4-if-you-use-apps-in-output-slot-in-audiobus

Microsoft Surface Go

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Comments

  • @skrat said:

    Fist thing is that the touch response is just not as "snappy" and fluent as on the iPad. The animations are often stuttered, the response is laggy and you don't feel like you're touching the application interface, but more like you're "drawing" gestures by your fingers on the glass and hoping that the display of the device will reflect it correctly... It's hard to explain but once you use it, you will realise how much better iOS is in this manner. Even simple tap on a button often needs several tries to be successful. It's pretty frustrating and annoying.

    From a review:

    Pac-Dot S Pen has none of the issues of the MS Pen
    Since acquiring the Pac-Dot S Pen I have not had any of the jitter issues, parallel lines not drawing properly, etc I had with my Surface Pen. In fact, I have not had ANY issues and it works wonderfully without setting it up. Finally, when using it I have no OneNote Issues. Highly, recommended.

    In many ways, it feels like the Apple Pen (in terms of how well it works), but even better. I use it for Surface Pro 2017

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  • Music user case for Surface Go from Molten Music now up.

  • @Dawdles said:
    Just spent an hour on Surface as a kind of test to see how it compares to iPad for me for a typical iPad session (for me) in AUM and cpu. In past I’ve subconsciously compared it more to laptop. Similar size/weight and I’ve always used the Microsoft keyboard.

    For those reasons I kind of always dismissed it for iPad type music except for occasional scratch pad sketches and some sound design. For ableton etc I felt like I might as well just use my more powerful laptop (basically same size) or go straight to desktop if I’m in studio.

    Pretty surprised how well it stood up when I changed my thinking and instead of comparing against ableton on a laptop I compared it against using AUM, for me at least.

    Ableton was really no more painful than AUM for setting up and jamming a performance type jam with the following -

    2 x lembura seq > 2 x operator synths
    Beatgenseq > granulator 2

    These are all free/included plugins (and Lots of other equal/better ones out there too, I was in a rush and just grabbed first relevant things I saw)..

    I also threw Repro 5 in there too.

    Performing for 10 minuets with a 4 bar pattern with all of that going my cpu didn’t go over 35%. Messing with the sequencers and tweaking params.

    No glitches or anything. Even minimising ableton and browsing large Jpeg images. No glitches at all. Using asio4all and the built in speakers.

    The things I initially felt were ‘Slightly’ more clunky than AUM+AU workflow soon felt like improvements. Things like scrolling the device view selector soon felt like an added navigation benefit rather than a hinderance. Especially when switching track focus and everything being open down there and ready to jump to, without completely obscuring everything else in view.

    The biggest pros over AUM for me were -

    • the ability to just drag my samples from ableton in to Granulator. Destroys any kind of browser window based file import for speed and intuitive auditioning.
    • Having everything in the device window available at the same time as the clips windows for performance. fx params, instruments params, modulation params, max4live step sequencer functions etc..at the same time as tracks’ volume, mute/solo, pan, clip switching etc...
    • Obvious stuff that I didn’t touch on in the tests. Amazing sampler. Drum racks. Arrangement view. Max4live Modulation etc..

    I also ran a very brief test with 2 x diva and 1 x repro 5. This used to cripple my Surface when not running off mains power. But since the ‘creators update’ Microsoft have enabled ‘high performance’ as an option when running on battery, and I can run these and ableton was hitting around 60%.... that’s pretty high for only 3 x synths, but just having that kind of quality as an option (and can always lower the quality in diva to reduce cpu and/or freeze tracks) for portable is a big appeal. I’ve not heard anything on iOS that I like as much as repro5...

    This is on a surface pro3 i7.

    Still some touch clunkiness in ableton. Some functions that would normally be right-click I found to be unavailable, duplicate track for instance, maybe someone can advise? So it’s definitely far from perfect. And there are subsequently a lot of pros/cons to weigh up between ableton and bitwig as best choice for win10 tablet music production. Id definitely miss max4live in bitwig for example :( but ableton doesn’t have a built in touch keyboard. For now I’m staying with iPad in any case, nicer size and love some of the apps, but interested to hear reports on the cpu of the surface Go and after a few more apps like Spacecraft head there then I may well grab one....

    Thanks for the extensive comparison. The only question I have: does de fan strat blowing hard when doing too much work. My experience with Surface i5 and i7 tablets was that they became very loud (fan noise) as soon as the processor had to work a little bit. This is/ was a known issue, but maybe it's solved after some recent updates. for me this fan noise was always the reason to hold back from a surface purchase.

  • @Jumpercollins said:
    Music user case for Surface Go from Molten Music now up.

    Awesome video, thank you. I'm at work can't sit through the whole thing but seems comprehensive. Even after only 15 minutes there's already so much hoop jumping, mostly due to Win10 S I know, but still. There's a lot to be said for the iPad (or anything really) where you just plug things in and go.

    That said, a full version of Win10 non S would probably be decent. Like this nice gent says, you're not gonna load up a gigantic orchestra but for a few synths, some loops/drums and some audio channels it's probably more than enough. Personally, I'm hard pressed to see how it's any better or expansive than just using what's already available on iOS :confused:

  • This is only for Windows S but Stahelight seems to run fine . He’s gonna donanoroper Windows 10/Surface GO video next. Don’t expect iPad Pro level performance from this thing . YouTube has plenty of comparisons. This thing is underpowered . Works nice w the new HP ‘14 monitor extension though

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  • Yeah, i suppose it could. Me personally I’d wait another month till the new MacBook AIR drops

  • The humble 'mouse' and keyboard are still excellent input devices, I'm hoping for full Desktop-Mobile modularity, the horsepower in the desktop and the UI via the mobile device with seamless low latency integration.

  • edited September 2018

    Mouse and keyboard are the two greatest computer essentials of all time, no mouse support on IOS is sad.

  • @Turntablist said:
    Mouse and keyboard are the two greatest computer essentials of all time, no mouse support on IOS is sad.

    A long time ago I searched also for this option and there you could implement a mouse cursor with a jailbreaked iPhone. So probably it should be easy to make it mouse compatible for Apple. I'm afraid Apple keeps the cursor out because i no time nearly all Macbooks would replaced by iPads :) So muse cursor won't happen.

  • @Turntablist said:
    Mouse and keyboard are the two greatest computer essentials of all time, no mouse support on IOS is sad.

    Funny, the lack of mouse is one of my favorite 'features' of iOS. I can't stand them. I try to avoid using the mouse/trackpad all day when working via keyboard shortcuts, etc. They're obviously great for precision clicking/selecting/etc type work but other than that, good riddance for me.

    I do miss keyboard shortcuts on iOS though just because they can make many functions available quickly with minimal UI noise. Even something as simple as "Spacebar == Play".

  • Editing a lot of audio without a mouse and keyboard is complete hell, try retiming a couple of bars of loose drummer multitracks, that will make you sprint to the desktop.

  • @Dawdles : There ARE iPad Pro/GO comparisons on you tube

  • @Turntablist said:
    Mouse and keyboard are the two greatest computer essentials of all time, no mouse support on IOS is sad.

    Mouse and keyboard are great and I use them all of the time.............

    On my desktop.

    My iPad is also great, and I like it exactly because there's no mouse and keyboard. People who want mouse and keyboard on a touchscreen device have never understood touchscreen devices imo.

    I don't need to choose between the two things. I use both. They're different, and I use each one for its strengths depending on what I'm doing.

  • I have to disagree, just because i want mouse and keyboard when the iPad is at the desk (and i gave a perfect example why) does not mean that when i pick it up and go and sit at the sofa or lie on the bed, go outside and so on that i dont fully understand the touch aspect of the device.
    Thereis no good reason for not having the ability of both.

  • edited September 2018

    @Turntablist said:
    I have to disagree, just because i want mouse and keyboard when the iPad is at the desk (and i gave a perfect example why) does not mean that when i pick it up and go and sit at the sofa or lie on the bed, go outside and so on that i dont fully understand the touch aspect of the device.
    Thereis no good reason for not having the ability of both.

    I guess that half of what you want already exists, which is the keyboard part. There are options from Apple and a number of third party keyboards are available.

    The mouse part is a different story of course. One thing that I'm pretty sure that Apple will not do though is make a hybrid machine like the Surface.

  • edited September 2018
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  • Trackball mouse was the game changer for me, PC @ Surface Pro 3. So easy to left click and ball for all kinds of controls...so much more relaxing. The ability to use a ball mouse on iOS would be awesome.

  • edited September 2018

    After about a year of terrible performance running Windows on a machine that used to run the latest Linux flawlessly I found the problem was the synced folders. Windows by default had me login to a “live” account where everything I did was indexed and tracked and synced and uploaded to a cloud. I couldn’t do a damn thing without waiting for some service to run. Finally after some forum research I discovered an obscure method of logging in locally and my performance problems nearly vanished. For all Apple’s flaws and sometimes dictatorial approaches, they are still the lesser of two evils when it comes to Windows, which I will try to avoid at all costs since the forced upgrade from 7. Never forget what they did to Clippy.

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  • @Dawdles said:

    @LucidMusicInc said:
    After about a year of terrible performance running Windows on a machine that used to run the latest Linux flawlessly I found the problem was the synced folders. Windows by default had me login to a “live” account where everything I did was indexed and tracked and synced and uploaded to a cloud. I couldn’t do a damn thing without waiting for some service to run. Finally after some forum research I discovered an obscure method of logging in locally and my performance problems nearly vanished. For all Apple’s flaws and sometimes dictatorial approaches, they are still the lesser of two evils when it comes to Windows, which I will try to avoid at all costs since the forced upgrade from 7. Never forget what they did to Clippy.

    I'd take Expandable memory and an open file system vs 'maybe needing to change a couple of settings' ;) Guess everyone has different about what's 'evil' ;)

    I was once like you... the problem with expandable memory is that it can get corrupted quite easily. The only thing I don’t like about Apple really is ITunes, but IMazing is free and does the job without any hassle.

  • edited September 2018
    The user and all related content has been deleted.
  • I want to be able to connect a lead to my iPad and use an external monitor, like I can with my MacBook Pro.

    And I’d also like a USB slot so I can transfer files to and from a thumb drive.

    Let me do that and I’ll buy another iPad after this one.

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  • edited September 2018

    @Dawdles said:

    @LucidMusicInc said:

    @Dawdles said:

    @LucidMusicInc said:
    After about a year of terrible performance running Windows on a machine that used to run the latest Linux flawlessly I found the problem was the synced folders. Windows by default had me login to a “live” account where everything I did was indexed and tracked and synced and uploaded to a cloud. I couldn’t do a damn thing without waiting for some service to run. Finally after some forum research I discovered an obscure method of logging in locally and my performance problems nearly vanished. For all Apple’s flaws and sometimes dictatorial approaches, they are still the lesser of two evils when it comes to Windows, which I will try to avoid at all costs since the forced upgrade from 7. Never forget what they did to Clippy.

    I'd take Expandable memory and an open file system vs 'maybe needing to change a couple of settings' ;) Guess everyone has different about what's 'evil' ;)

    I was once like you... the problem with expandable memory is that it can get corrupted quite easily. The only thing I don’t like about Apple really is ITunes, but IMazing is free and does the job without any hassle.

    I need to check out imazing, thanks for the reminder :)

    Re memory, I like all my samples, Kontakt Instruments and stuff onboard, so for me I’d rather risk corrupt memory than not have that space. I’ve never had issues with sd card before tho. Been on android phone for 4 years and mem cards in some hardware samplers and cameras etc. I’m sure it does happen, but what doesn’t ;) Anything important is backed up in any case...

    I’m still not sure what issue you were having with your windows tho that needed an obscure fix? Most things are quick enough in settings? All my windows 10 machines (Surface Pro 3 and Scan desktop) have been fine from the get go....

    Can’t argue against more memory. Funny that Apple hasn’t come up with some affordable external memory solution yet.

    My gripe with the memory cards, Google and Windows come from personal experiences. I was once firmly on the Android and Windows side of the fence for lots of reasons but now I’m on IOS and plan to stay here for some time.

    Nevertheless it’s 2018 and technology is growing more powerful at an increasing rate so all the power to the pioneers of touchscreen based PC music production. Many paths can lead to the same goal...

  • edited September 2018

    @Dawdles said:

    @MonzoPro said:
    I want to be able to connect a lead to my iPad and use an external monitor, like I can with my MacBook Pro.

    And I’d also like a USB slot so I can transfer files to and from a thumb drive.

    Let me do that and I’ll buy another iPad after this one.

    A lot of companies have that underlying concern, ‘if we give them too much with this thing, then we’ll probably sell less of that thing’....It stifles progression...

    For all the love I have of making music on the iPad, the biggest frustration for me is that it doesn’t support basic connectivity developed years ago, which even the cheapest PC can do.

    I presume it’s about money - if iPads could that, we wouldn’t need to spend £2500 on an entry level MacBook Pro.

  • edited September 2018

    @MonzoPro said:

    @Dawdles said:

    @MonzoPro said:
    I want to be able to connect a lead to my iPad and use an external monitor, like I can with my MacBook Pro.

    And I’d also like a USB slot so I can transfer files to and from a thumb drive.

    Let me do that and I’ll buy another iPad after this one.

    A lot of companies have that underlying concern, ‘if we give them too much with this thing, then we’ll probably sell less of that thing’....It stifles progression...

    For all the love I have of making music on the iPad, the biggest frustration for me is that it doesn’t support basic connectivity developed years ago, which even the cheapest PC can do.

    I presume it’s about money - if iPads could that, we wouldn’t need to spend £2500 on an entry level MacBook Pro.

    Don’t forget about the extra £50 for the entry level dongles too

    Joking aside... Air Drop is awesome. I transferred about 10gigs wirelessly the other day in under 5 minutes.

  • MdMMdM
    edited September 2018

    surface book 2 here and the experience is fine. It has the potential but I think maybe ios appeals more to the imagination. It's an eco system still developing. The surface go will be fine for people who naturally limit themselves or who have good methods for keeping systems tidy/bouncing/freezing for space/can make music without excess. There is no reason a windows system cannot over take ios and in that instance IOS could be used to supplement especially where Microsoft con people with the sizes of storage. The surface book 2 was the reason I got round to using my touch screen monitor properly. I use a hanns g and it's very fluid and natural with bitwig especially. Bigwig has a drum container function that plays just as well as you could hope. The surface go won't make a big dent regarding ipads but the price differential will appeal and the ability to run full daws etc will appeal. Connecting ipad to a windows tablet offers a lot of potential.

    Am going back and forth but my attraction to ios was the challenge it offered not so much how great it was.

  • @MdM : How will you be making that connection? Through Studiomux?

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