Will Camelot Pro Be like MainStage for iOS?

That’s one way to put it…
http://discchord.com/appnews/2018/04/16/messe-2018-camelot-apple-mainstage-competitor

If so, it could be a dream come true. (Although, the more amazing dream involves Apple releasing its virtual instruments as AUv3…)

Obviously low on details (especially pricing and third-party support), but quite intriguing.
http://www.camelotpro.com
Could pair well with what @InfoCheck just said about MIDI-CI

Thoughts?

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Comments

  • Of course I’ll check it out when it arrives, but I already use AUM as a mainstage replacement. AUM just needs two more things: channel presets, and midi scene recall. And of course a bunch more AU instruments couldn’t hurt.

  • It seems an arranger so welcome to iOS for sure but lately I don’t trust on live gigs possibilities of iDevices (due iOS11) so IDK...

    It also remembers Modstep in some areas but again no Arranger features in it.

    Anyways someday Apple will improve garageband or port Mainstage and that’s it. Anything will work better on iOS probably.

  • Here’s another video interview on the forthcoming Camelot:

    MIDI was founded on the principle that a high tide raises all boats as just like everyone else, musicians want their equipment/software to work well together so they spend more time making music than sorting through technical frustration. Given the track record of the players on this project, I think Camelot will eventually be a viable option for people who need this functionality and aren’t well served by main stage or similar apps.

  • @ion677 said:
    Of course I’ll check it out when it arrives, but I already use AUM as a mainstage replacement. AUM just needs two more things: channel presets, and midi scene recall. And of course a bunch more AU instruments couldn’t hurt.

    Interesting points. They put things in perspective, for me. Haven’t used AUM in this way, really, but you got a point. Saving a bunch of projects and switching between them could probably work as well as the overall MainStage workflow. Of course, that doesn’t include the attachments (zoomed in sections of PDFs in sync with sections in your performance) nor does it really us to get all the patches from a hardware device. But there might be a good workflow in there.

  • @Dubbylabby said:
    lately I don’t trust on live gigs possibilities of iDevices (due iOS11)

    Oh? What issues have you been having? It’s been very stable on my devices, but haven’t followed on others’ issues.

  • @InfoCheck said:
    MIDI was founded on the principle that a high tide raises all boats as just like everyone else, musicians want their equipment/software to work well together so they spend more time making music than sorting through technical frustration. Given the track record of the players on this project, I think Camelot will eventually be a viable option for people who need this functionality and aren’t well served by main stage or similar apps.

    Nice attitude!
    Agreed that our experiences with Camelot’s partners plays an important part. Jordan Rudess has demonstrated his ability to serve as both a spokesperson and quite an enabler, for iOS-based musicking. Audio Modelling has been doing a very good job with its SWAM Engine instruments. The fact that some of them are sold within ROLI Noise is a good sign. The agreement with Sample Modelling is probably an important step as well. Don’t know about Fatar but it sounds like they design the actual parts of keyboard for pianos and such, so the part about hardware manufacturers makes sense in that context.
    Some of this might also explain the timing of GeoShred specifically adding support for Audio Modelling (desktop) plugins. They’ve been working together. (The same app just came out with support for Haken Continuum and Moog Model D, so maybe Rudess has been having chats with Ed Eagan and Geert Bevin?

    What gave me hope, in all of this, was a series of things. The first one was mistaken: initially thought that the “MainStage replacement” angle was about providing a series of cross-platform virtual instruments. Audio Modelling could do this and it’d be a great play. But those plugins are pretty expensive and they probably wouldn’t sell iOS versions at a reasonable price without bundling them with desktop version.
    The second hope-generating impression is more realistic: the new MIDI specs are becoming a concrete reality. The fact that Camelot explicit supports MPE is a good sign, given the adoption of that spec two months ago. What’d be amazing is if the software could somehow provide a sort of wrapper to make non-MPE plugins into MPE ones. But just the fact that MPE is announced as one of the initial features is a good sign. (MIDI-CI isn’t mentioned, but it does sound like the software would leverage any kind of MIDI-CI functionality.)
    The third thing which made me hopeful is the focus on live performance. Though there are other pieces of software which can help in live performance (including MainStage and Gig Performer), this struck me as a welcome addition.
    My fourth hope is related: been noticing how much of a problem it can be to manage patches and samples and sounds and loops and stems and presets and snippets… Never thought about using MainStage to organize these things but, come to think of it, it could make a lot of sense (at least for AU plugins, including samplers). This might be very obvious to a lot of people but it didn’t even come up in a Lynda course about MainStage. So, assuming Camelot supports everything in a proper way, this could be a cool way to keep my favourite Model D patches with my bs16i soundfonts and my AudioShare recordings. As @ion677 says, much of this can be done in AUM.
    Related to the partners’ track record is the idea that they can coax manufacturers to release new versions of their wares. For instance, it’d be amazing if Korg could release AUv3 versions of its Gadgets on iOS… and add MPE support. With the kind of patch-scanning Camelot does, it could mean that all these neat Korg presets could become part of one giant database on an iOS device. Whoa!
    The other features are cool as well, like going from one “scene” to another through MIDI or creating the equivalent of a pageturn functionality.

    So, while we’re very low on details and a lot can happen before September, learning a bit about Camelot kind of made my day, yesterday.

  • My main issues @Enkerli are related to Launchpad app where I put some trust and iOS11 burnt it. Garageband works flawless but lacks in lots of features and AUv3 hosting doesn’t convince me neither in realtime gigging.
    At the moment I’m testing BM3 and keep BlocsWave as composition tool but I’m selling my novation hardware without look back. Also I purchased recently a Korg MicroArranger as center of my mobile gigging and probably I will buy more standalone hardware as time goes by.
    I can’t expent the money on iDevices to get trottelling, glitchs and crashes were in iOS10 was sweet experience. I don’t trust iOS anymore, sorry. It’s my POV obviously, not a gospel truth.
    In fact I enjoyed the first and second time with the KMA even isn’t the most user friendly arranger on the market. It has nice guitar and strings sounds (bye bye Garageband), it has nice sax (bye sensual sax), pianos and so on... also it has arranger with dedicated buttons for intros, parts and fill ins (so byebye Ableton live almost for keyboard performing) and I’m looking for hardware sampler like Roland Sp or Akai mpc to ditch definetly the iPad on stage.
    I could complement KMA with some arranger apps like Prime or GTL to improve some parts and add audio backing tracks but firstly the basics covered.

    Camelot remembers me a bit to NI Kore and it’s amazing proposal but I will prefer it for dedicated platform curated by musicians for muscians. iOS was that for me in the past but not in the future. I’m getting old for dealing with some basic issues and they seem related to iOS rat race for desktop features. You may know I bet all in with iDevices so it wasn’t an easy step neither.

  • @Dubbylabby said:
    My main issues @Enkerli are related to Launchpad app where I put some trust and iOS11 burnt it. Garageband works flawless but lacks in lots of features and AUv3 hosting doesn’t convince me neither in realtime gigging.
    At the moment I’m testing BM3 and keep BlocsWave as composition tool but I’m selling my novation hardware without look back. Also I purchased recently a Korg MicroArranger as center of my mobile gigging and probably I will buy more standalone hardware as time goes by.
    I can’t expent the money on iDevices to get trottelling, glitchs and crashes were in iOS10 was sweet experience. I don’t trust iOS anymore, sorry. It’s my POV obviously, not a gospel truth.
    In fact I enjoyed the first and second time with the KMA even isn’t the most user friendly arranger on the market. It has nice guitar and strings sounds (bye bye Garageband), it has nice sax (bye sensual sax), pianos and so on... also it has arranger with dedicated buttons for intros, parts and fill ins (so byebye Ableton live almost for keyboard performing) and I’m looking for hardware sampler like Roland Sp or Akai mpc to ditch definetly the iPad on stage.
    I could complement KMA with some arranger apps like Prime or GTL to improve some parts and add audio backing tracks but firstly the basics covered.

    Camelot remembers me a bit to NI Kore and it’s amazing proposal but I will prefer it for dedicated platform curated by musicians for muscians. iOS was that for me in the past but not in the future. I’m getting old for dealing with some basic issues and they seem related to iOS rat race for desktop features. You may know I bet all in with iDevices so it wasn’t an easy step neither.

    Interesting experience. Does sound like you’re getting into Dawless Jammin’. While iOS 11 has yet to burn me in the same way (AUM and Audiobus have been solid), there’s some charm to using multiple hardware devices if you have the room for that and/or a roadie. As usual, YMMV (“your mileage may vary”).
    Thanks for sharing.

  • @Dubbylabby said:
    My main issues @Enkerli are related to Launchpad app where I put some trust and iOS11 burnt it. Garageband works flawless but lacks in lots of features and AUv3 hosting doesn’t convince me neither in realtime gigging.
    At the moment I’m testing BM3 and keep BlocsWave as composition tool but I’m selling my novation hardware without look back. Also I purchased recently a Korg MicroArranger as center of my mobile gigging and probably I will buy more standalone hardware as time goes by.
    I can’t expent the money on iDevices to get trottelling, glitchs and crashes were in iOS10 was sweet experience. I don’t trust iOS anymore, sorry. It’s my POV obviously, not a gospel truth.
    In fact I enjoyed the first and second time with the KMA even isn’t the most user friendly arranger on the market. It has nice guitar and strings sounds (bye bye Garageband), it has nice sax (bye sensual sax), pianos and so on... also it has arranger with dedicated buttons for intros, parts and fill ins (so byebye Ableton live almost for keyboard performing) and I’m looking for hardware sampler like Roland Sp or Akai mpc to ditch definetly the iPad on stage.
    I could complement KMA with some arranger apps like Prime or GTL to improve some parts and add audio backing tracks but firstly the basics covered.

    Camelot remembers me a bit to NI Kore and it’s amazing proposal but I will prefer it for dedicated platform curated by musicians for muscians. iOS was that for me in the past but not in the future. I’m getting old for dealing with some basic issues and they seem related to iOS rat race for desktop features. You may know I bet all in with iDevices so it wasn’t an easy step neither.

    @Dubbylabby I think your expectations for iOS were too high as the mobile market is still growing and for live performance you need to have a stable environment and iOS isn’t there yet. I don’t think there’s a rat race for desktop features, if anything, if Apple were willing to invest more into supporting the infrastructure developers need there’d be more stability rather than less. Given the nature of modern advertising it’s clear that they can invest more money into improving the impression of their product than they often do to improve the practical realities of using them.

    Something as basic as the Files app didn’t get sufficient attention from Apple as they could have had a much smoother/bug free introduction if they’d invested more in developing and testing it. In general I think Apple does a poor job of eliciting and responding to user feedback relative to other developers, especially the independent ones.

    Jordan Rudess actually uses the products he helps develop and devotes significant time helping to promote them because he sees this as a way to add this additional/new functionality from what I’ve seen in his interviews. The development of GeoShred and its predecessor Geo Synth before that as well as his work with hardware manufacturers and being a live performer place him at the nexus of being able to move things forward. Such growth is rarely without growing pains and it’d be nice if marketing departments were more focused on practical applications of their products.

  • My advice on iOS is to lock down the device--then you have hardware! Get your rig completely stable and then turn off WiFi, etc and don't worry about software updates, etc. If you get the itch because your favorite app just released a killer update, you really need another device to use in rehearsal and put the update through a "new locked down" version of your "hardware".

  • @InfoCheck
    LoopyHd works flawless inside an old iPhone4 with iOS7... I was gigging back in the day with iPad 3rd gen and is202 dock without too much hassle. Nowadays I can’t with some apps due app switching freezing some of them, link going out of sync...
    Rat race since most of these new features (dock, files, exposé...) make glitchy which was rock solid just one version ago.

    @lukesleepwalker
    As you pointed lock in my devices was the strategy since before iOS11. I could rely my live gigging on iDevices just using on app at time and few of them but nowadays I found myself with my iMini4 crackling just with Launchpad app and alternatives don’t being enough fun as workflows (looptunes, BM3, Garageband...). In fact I’m stuck in 11.2.5 and probably it will bemy last. Mini4 is going to sit over itrack dock for just music making and I will find better solution for blogging/forums. Fb is gone in my iDevices etc etc. But anyways I can trust on this for live, for studio working (and youtube casting) is ok due I can record things twice or infinte but live are bigger words.

    So to end offtopic and back on topic...
    Camelot seems a nice proposal but I hardly will buy another iDevice for music making and probably the best version for my Mini4 was 10. I never jailbroke none of my old iPad/iPhone but never say never...
    If I need to buy a Pro just for get an arranger I will prefer go to macbook/mac mini and Mainstage. Bang for the buck it’s weird being cheaper...

  • I agree, feature creep for other aspects of ios has made it less reliable for music, and fair enough as music making was never apple's intention for any of this. There was a time when it looked like ios was going to be a reality for really serious music making but I think that's gone away.

    I just bought a 2012 macbook pro 2 months ago that has been amazing for music, yet my iPad air 1 has become unable to run many apps smoothly since ios11, and if I have more than 3 apps open, not even working together, just in the background, it becomes painfully slow. It is what it is, I just look at the iPad as a supplement to music making, it mostly acts as a control surface or a chart reader now in music, or the occasional synth noodle.

    I also use it for work to take notes with goodnotes and that works well for my purposes. With the new iPad now able to use apple pencil, I was tempted, but that will be $549 for the 128gb model and the pencil and my stylus and air are taking notes just fine (no artwork).

    I'm kind of sad to say all of this because I mixed our first shutterwax album in auria and it was an easy and great process, but I'm finding mixing on harrison mixbus so pleasing now that I don't really open auria anymore, and it's nice not having any file workarounds but just using a file manager.

    With that info and $5 you can get a small Starbucks, so take it for what it is.

  • @Dubbylabby said:

    probably the best version for my Mini4 was 10

    Does sound very likely.

    Recently bought an iPad Pro 9.7, used. Was hesitant. Had been using an iPad 3 with iOS 9 and an iPad 4 with iOS 10. Both of them were having performance issues. Each could support its last OS version, but barely. It’s often the case that Apple maintains support for old devices just a bit too long. Was really burnt with the original iPad ad updating it to iOS 5 was a big mistake. (At the time, there was no turning back if you didn’t plan it very specifically.) Of course, it’s a bit hard to predict which OS version is too taxing for which device, but there are ways to tell. And, AFAICT, there are ways to “turn back the clock” and revert to a previous version of iOS, no? Here’s a 9to5Mac explanation:
    https://9to5mac.com/2017/06/27/downgrade-ios-11-to-ios-10-video/

    Thing is, though, iOS 11 works really well on the iPad Pro. No performance issue to speak of.
    What iOS 11 has added has been quite useful to me, including the new version of IDAM as “Inter-Devices Audio and MIDI”. Haven’t had a problem with iOS 11 on my iPhone 6s Plus.

  • edited April 19

    Well going hardware is being a right solution for me after entirely life of pushing edges.
    Next thing maybe could be a Mpc1000 @kobamoto
    Not kidding.

  • anyone knows relase date?

  • @Dubbylabby we have very different needs and expectations with iOS. What you see as a rat race of features, I see as music creation being just one small component of the larger Apple/iOS agenda.

    It shouldn’t be too surprising if your decision to switch to a hardware based approach, which primarily focuses on creating live music, works out very well for you.

  • edited April 19

    @InfoCheck I see your point but which makes it a rat race is the fact the days of performance over GUI improvements seems far gone.

    Music, Video and publishers were the (re)foundation of the mac when Jobs returned. Back in the day we had snow leopard, mountain lion, etc... but since we are in the middle of the third transition (from Intel into ARM) some weird things are going under the carpet (in my gut opinion).

    It’s ok as marketing strategy due it’s clear professionals aren’t the target anymore but the only thing to think different as mobile platform was music (and so). Obviously said that at AudioBus forums, not in reddit.

    What needs and expectations from AudioBus user forum one could expect?

    If I’m being forced to update due security concerns without any chance to go step back (the solution shown by @Enkerli was for beta users only)...

    ...

    I was giving more explanantions but delete by random in iPad writting is one of those things I’m starting hate and put me aside from “enjoying the user experience”.

    As a resume: iOS as extension of macOS was a music paradise until iOS11 and now it’s very hard to justify the cost as was 3 years ago with my mac mini. As a Value proposition Apple has lost all my trust and those brands pursuing the same amount of fast race to catch the wave too (looking at @AmpifyxNovation).

    Without that trust (and differentation) Apple devices doesn’t worth the price for me and make me more difficult to justify for others (recomendation). Less is more.

    So to back on topic (again) I will not trust my money at any arranger Apple-platform-based. I will prefer to save for Ketron or even Roland/Korg proposals and in the best scenario use it in junction with (which I will try by myself to talk with experience in my hand, not just hate/love for a platform).

    To check Fb/Instagram any shitty mobile phone will do the same than lastest iPhone IMO.
    To make music live I will prefer a dedicated hardware 100% (and maybe that’s the reason behind some gaps in iOS ecosystem since those users will never rely on computers).

    ATM Mini4 will end its life inside the iTrack dock most of the time and it will be sold altogether as One. BlocsWave will be still my tool fo choice but if I found the right substitute I will export all my content and don’t look back.

  • Will this work also with ios synths somehow?

  • @MAtrixplan said:

    Will this work also with ios synths somehow?

    They did mention iOS during the announcement. And there’s this on the site:

    Cross-Platform & Cross-Device
    One account to rule them all. Works on Windows, macOS and iOS. Perform with multiple devices at the same time.

  • Beta is out great going to have fun seeing how it all works today.

  • Now that’s interesting a DAW layer coming soon. I wonder how you can intergrate your DAW VST/AU through your iPad.

  • @Jumpercollins said:
    Now that’s interesting a DAW layer coming soon. I wonder how you can intergrate your DAW VST/AU through your iPad.

    Wow!!
    Now this is excited!!

  • Thanks for reporting back, @Jumpercollins ! Did sign up for the beta but didn’t receive an invite, yet, just their updated privacy policy.

    Really intrigued by the workflow. We really need more performance-oriented apps. Gig Performer could be that on Windows but we don’t really have one for iOS.
    And it’ll be interesting to hear more about MPE support.

  • @Enkerli said:
    Thanks for reporting back, @Jumpercollins ! Did sign up for the beta but didn’t receive an invite, yet, just their updated privacy policy.

    Really intrigued by the workflow. We really need more performance-oriented apps. Gig Performer could be that on Windows but we don’t really have one for iOS.
    And it’ll be interesting to hear more about MPE support.

    The audio and midi input/output is standard by the looks of it. Has a remote control option. The hardware options for CC auto mapping for models is limited at present to 5 brands and 10 models. Currently non of them are of the MPE type ie Seaboard etc. If that’s what you are after.

  • They just extended the beta on this one so expect a delay I should think.

  • When will Camelot come out? September is almost gone.

  • Had a email in today about the beta update. Looks like the desktop version is out but unclear how to get it. It’s telling me to go to the audio modelling customer portal but after register and signing in not seeing Camelot listed anyone else had the email and tried ? Is it Mac only or PC?

  • Haven't> @Jumpercollins said:

    Had a email in today about the beta update. Looks like the desktop version is out but unclear how to get it. It’s telling me to go to the audio modelling customer portal but after register and signing in not seeing Camelot listed anyone else had the email and tried ? Is it Mac only or PC?

    Haven't tried it but I am putting the iOS version through the paces. Few issues to work out but this one could def be the mainstage for iPad that live players have been looking for.

  • @lukesleepwalker said:
    Haven't> @Jumpercollins said:

    Had a email in today about the beta update. Looks like the desktop version is out but unclear how to get it. It’s telling me to go to the audio modelling customer portal but after register and signing in not seeing Camelot listed anyone else had the email and tried ? Is it Mac only or PC?

    Haven't tried it but I am putting the iOS version through the paces. Few issues to work out but this one could def be the mainstage for iPad that live players have been looking for.

    Agreed found out you have to apply for a code it’s is windows and Mac.

  • @lukesleepwalker said:
    Haven't> @Jumpercollins said:

    Had a email in today about the beta update. Looks like the desktop version is out but unclear how to get it. It’s telling me to go to the audio modelling customer portal but after register and signing in not seeing Camelot listed anyone else had the email and tried ? Is it Mac only or PC?

    Haven't tried it but I am putting the iOS version through the paces. Few issues to work out but this one could def be the mainstage for iPad that live players have been looking for.

    Interesting. The web page doesn't say anything about the included sample library and synths. Looks more like a successor to "OnSong" from what I understand.

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