Audiobus: Use your music apps together.

What is Audiobus?Audiobus is an award-winning music app for iPhone and iPad which lets you use your other music apps together. Chain effects on your favourite synth, run the output of apps or Audio Units into an app like GarageBand or Loopy, or select a different audio interface output for each app. Route MIDI between apps — drive a synth from a MIDI sequencer, or add an arpeggiator to your MIDI keyboard — or sync with your external MIDI gear. And control your entire setup from a MIDI controller.

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About Saturation and Feedback

I posted the same in another forum since i don´t know exact what plug-in or app could help me here.
I find it really hard to get synths saturated but still pronounced and punchy instead just distorted.
I found that interesting what the developer of the Moog app said about the feedback thing and that seems what makes the feedback actually really great in this. And that is the thing (beside that they modeled the new reissue with the LFO) which makes it the best emulation for me.
The save sounds are good in all those plug-ins and apps.
I don´t get any near in all those plug-ins and apps and i guess a saturation plug-in doesn´t do it or it or need zero delay feedback saturation/distortion whatever.
I mean they all get fat but it´s just distortion and doesn´t sound like feedback for me.
I like to be proven wrong on this one and would like to hear recommendations to achieve similar sound with my plug-ins since i like it really on bass.
I wonder how the other plug-in developers added their feedback in the Moog emulations since they all doesn´t sound as good for me. They actually saturate but not in such a pronounced way the app does.
Also my saturation plug-ins and Logic´s Phat FX (kind of version 2.0 from the old Camel Phat) do not get me there. And in the Model D app i can drive it really loud but it´s still not peaking like the others while it is sounding just more fat and loud without having to use a compressor or limiter etc. Like there would me still more headroom i could even further saturate via an extern FX.
Not sure if it even sounds right like a feedback on an analog but i love exact this effect the most in Model D (beside the filter and envelopes).
Here is what the developer said about this:

"One thing that took a completely different approach was the actual feedback path – where you have the external audio which is normalized to the output of the mains. That’s really, really hard to do in DSP, because you have a buffer size which prevents you from having a real feedback path. Because of latency, you don’t get the same behavior.

If you would naïvely just hook it up at the end of the sound and put it back into the mixer, you’d get the latency of the buffer, which gets you into phase problems, comb-filtering and things that don’t sound like the original at all.

So we reevaluated how that behaved and tried to capture what makes that external normalization feedback path interesting. Part of that is that the sound starts to saturate in a very pleasing way, where the bass stays present. It also thickens the sound a lot, sort of spreads it out a little bit, so it becomes stronger but more pronounced.

So what we actually did was design a whole separate signal path, that runs in parallel, but behaves slightly different and very close to what would happen if it were routed in analog. It’s almost like you’ve got two synthesizers, running next to each other, just for that external feedback path."

I compared that to a slightly detuned 3 OSC saw (hard to set up everything the same but i got quite similar before i used the feedback and/or saturation) with The Legend (SynapseAudio), P900 (PulsarModular) and Model D app (Moog). I gave up on Monark since the feedback/drive isn´t great for my taste. It´s just not there or totally over.
Which would you prefer (if you like massive saturated synth bass). You can hear it even much better what i mean with just one OSC (will compare that too later).

Comments

  • I'm not certain I understand exactly what you are asking for, probably due to me not understanding the terminology correctly. However, I have gotten effects similar to your soundcloud clip using Grind, and also using Discord4.

    Geoshred also does some very nice feedback. They have not released that as an effect yet, but I understand that a separate effects app is forthcoming.

  • Use multiple copies of your synth track in a DAW, or use AUM busses. Then you would get as many parallel synths as you can handle. You could have more control too because you can filter them differently to just add the frequency ranges you need, or put some subtle effects on some tracks. Just watch your overall gain level as you add the next layer.

  • The thing is Model D react with no feel of any delay and it might be due to the signal path in parallel like mentioned above. It´s also the kind of very pronounced saturation it adds without sounding phased or just distorted.
    Hard to explain and maybe people even don´t hear a big different. I do.
    It´s a kind of quality i hear also f.e in Repro´s JAWS FX just with another flavor.
    Zeeon can do similar great saturation (but not as good as Model D).
    Like i said hard to explain and it´s maybe just me or i should tweak the other synths more.
    Maybe i could post a few examples of what i mean. You can do some nice saxophone like timbres with this saturation and it sounds a lot more organic in Model D (only P900 is better for these timbres).
    Maybe there are workarounds or FX plug-ins (if the offer zero delay feedback) but it´s so simple with Model D.
    I might post some Model D presets i can´t do with other synths even not with the other Minimoog emulations to better show what i mean :)
    F.e try to do the feedback thing with iMini!

  • edited April 2018

    A short example preset (similar to one of my Zeeon presets). Play with it and then turn the feedback knob all the way down. It still has the same character but with much a less pronounced sound.
    If you turn it on you will hear how it effects the sound and still stays defined and not just distorted.
    https://www.dropbox.com/s/382y0cfvl8rp18i/SAXOMOOG.mdp?dl=0
    And another thing about the Model D app is they really modeled the gain staging too. So the resonance f.e. will overdrive if you turn the volume of the OSC up as well if you drive up the main volume. This also further saturates the feedback as well while a lot plug-ins just really get louder.
    Model D is a real gem and i think beside the still bigger balls from the hardware it´s really so close to a real analog Minimoog which is still one of the most fat sounding and easy to use synths.
    Put the filter and feedback into Zeeon and i would be in heaven :)
    What is also great that the FX, even when used on top of a gain staged signal path, still don´t distort too much and has punch. Call me again impressed by what Moog did here in coding.
    If i put a limiter on some saturated sounds they are flat in the mix. Model D still stands out and cut trough like a knife.

  • @Cib said:
    Which would you prefer (if you like massive saturated synth bass). You can hear it even much better what i mean with just one OSC (will compare that too later).

    I prefer 1-3-2 in order.

  • edited April 2018

    Here is what the developer said
    "One thing that took a completely different approach was the actual feedback path – where you have the external audio which is normalized to the output of the mains. That’s really, really hard to do in DSP, because you have a buffer size which prevents you from having a real feedback path. Because of latency, you don’t get the same behavior.

    If you would naïvely just hook it up at the end of the sound and put it back into the mixer, you’d get the latency of the buffer, which gets you into phase problems, comb-filtering and things that don’t sound like the original at all.

    So we reevaluated how that behaved and tried to capture what makes that external normalization feedback path interesting. Part of that is that the sound starts to saturate in a very pleasing way, where the bass stays present. It also thickens the sound a lot, sort of spreads it out a little bit, so it becomes stronger but more pronounced.

    So what we actually did was design a whole separate signal path, that runs in parallel, but behaves slightly different and very close to what would happen if it were routed in analog. It’s almost like you’ve got two synthesizers, running next to each other, just for that external feedback path."

    So what is done here is the removal of the Negative feedback path and replicating its effects inline along a parallel path?
    I agree with your comments about liking what you hear from Moog’s app. To me it sounds crisp.

    You mentioned camel phat, have you tried Cytomic “drop” or “Scream”, my personal favorites in DSP.
    iOS has Saturn by Fabfilter available, which is what I render through after the fact.

  • Try this Model D preset. That‘s a snappy and gnarly pronounced sound i like.
    Really only P900 and (and maybe Repro) can do this better. They are producing some better harmonics at the high end.
    And if you want to know how great high quality audio rate stuff can sound as FX, just open up the sustain of the amp envelope full.
    Hit a note and try to use the pitchwheel very slowly up and down.
    You also can use a slow attack and turn polyphony on for a really gnarly pad.
    My favorite preset of the ones i made so far (including all iOS synth i did some for). I love this organic sound.
    https://www.dropbox.com/s/fjeejahofe82o8h/CIB - SNAP BACK.mdp?dl=0

  • That’s a really fun patch, thanks for sharing!

  • @Cib can you post a screenshot of the dials ? Model-D is out of reach for me running IOS-9, but I'd try it on my Creamware Minimax. Never digged that deep into that filter drive.

  • @Telefunky said:
    @Cib can you post a screenshot of the dials ? Model-D is out of reach for me running IOS-9, but I'd try it on my Creamware Minimax. Never digged that deep into that filter drive.

    Sure, i fine tuned it a bit but i doubt it will sound the same. The envelopes and OSC etc. are all a bit different. Even in other Minimoog emulations.
    Funny, the one which almost can sound quite the same and vice versa is P900 and Model D.
    The Legend, Monark and that Arturia thing sounds very different.


  • I tried to recreate that with other synths as well but they doesn‘t get close.
    Like i said, only P900 and Repro could do that better.

  • edited April 2018

    And while i‘m here. Here is an updated bank of my presets. 20 Presets.
    !Watch out, mostly the levels are high as possible since the feedback/saturation need the levels!
    https://www.dropbox.com/s/d5gf1vnta8tuqz9/CIB-01.1.mdb?dl=0
    A short demos of most of them:

  • edited April 2018
    The user and all related content has been deleted.
  • @Max23 said:
    hm, i don't know
    I can't compare sounds like this
    I prefer nr.3 of the "distorted sounds" but that also happens to be the loudest sound?
    so where did the last one come from? ^^

    If you mean the first post. The last one was Model D :)
    The first is The Legend and the second P900.
    But in the meantime i get close with all the 3 after fine tuning etc.
    The thing with the Model D feedback is it really works great on high volumes without that it peaks or you have to compress it much.
    The Legend and P900 can sound more big and fat if you go wild but i find Model D more musical.
    But if you start to use much resonance and go really wild there is just one king in town (P900).
    But it´s interesting that even most Minimoog emulations sound so different in many areas but also can get close in others. And i still find that Model D and P900 are the closest. Even under a EQ/spectrum if i use just the they look 99% the same (when i not leave Model D sweet spot). Even the saturation can get quite similar to a certain point.
    Here the biggest difference is that P900 saturation is per voice (not sure about Model D) and is more subtle even if i just use it with an open filter or without resonance. But if i start to modulate stuff and turn the resonance really up P900 can create such great harmonic and pronounced things i didn´t heard anywhere yet. It´s kind of more organic, musical, wonderful. It can almost create string sounds which are nicer than real violins at really high frequencies. :)

  • @Cib said:
    And while i‘m here. Here is an updated bank of my presets. 20 Presets.
    !Watch out, mostly the levels are high as possible since the feedback/saturation need the levels!
    https://www.dropbox.com/s/d5gf1vnta8tuqz9/CIB-01.1.mdb?dl=0
    A short demos of most of them:

    Fantastic patches--thanks for sharing!

  • A nice timbre great saturation can create in a synth f.e.:

  • @Wrlds2ndBstGeoshredr said:
    I'm not certain I understand exactly what you are asking for, probably due to me not understanding the terminology correctly. However, I have gotten effects similar to your soundcloud clip using Grind, and also using Discord4.

    Geoshred also does some very nice feedback. They have not released that as an effect yet, but I understand that a separate effects app is forthcoming.

    The reason GeoShred can do such great feedback is that there is a model of the physics of the guitar strings. The output of the amplifier can be fedback into the strings. Its pretty hard to imaging how to make a stompbox in the middle of the signal chain to do this to an arbitrary input (like a real guitar). In real life the amp is feeding back through the air to the strings. There have been a few products that have a combo guitar pickup/driver to bring feedback directly to the guitar.

  • @moForte said:

    @Wrlds2ndBstGeoshredr said:
    I'm not certain I understand exactly what you are asking for, probably due to me not understanding the terminology correctly. However, I have gotten effects similar to your soundcloud clip using Grind, and also using Discord4.

    Geoshred also does some very nice feedback. They have not released that as an effect yet, but I understand that a separate effects app is forthcoming.

    The reason GeoShred can do such great feedback is that there is a model of the physics of the guitar strings. The output of the amplifier can be fedback into the strings. Its pretty hard to imaging how to make a stompbox in the middle of the signal chain to do this to an arbitrary input (like a real guitar). In real life the amp is feeding back through the air to the strings. There have been a few products that have a combo guitar pickup/driver to bring feedback directly to the guitar.

    I have seen a stompbox that pitch-detects the fundamental of the incoming signal and uses that information to generate a high, feedback-sounding note.

    E-bow also has a feedback mode, but I'm not sure how that works.

  • The EBow is magnetically driving noise directly into the metal strings on a guitar.

  • This is the only recent thread I could find that talks about E-Bows. I just noticed yesterday while tweaking a setting in GeoShred that there’s an E-Bow feature hidden in the guitar’s advanced settings menu (!!!)

    I swear that wasn’t there a month ago?

  • @JonLewis said:
    This is the only recent thread I could find that talks about E-Bows. I just noticed yesterday while tweaking a setting in GeoShred that there’s an E-Bow feature hidden in the guitar’s advanced settings menu (!!!)

    I swear that wasn’t there a month ago?

    Does it sound anything like an actual E-Bow? Might be fun if it did.

  • Still not happy after searching with the saturation/distortion options i have in iOS.
    To say it in sound i still search what would be the closest to achieve these kind of sounds (here achieved f.e. with high resonance on filter and per voice tube saturation/distortion controlled by the envelopes amplitude).
    I gave up on an iOS port for this synths since the developer seems to have no time anymore for this and/or think the market isn´t there ( :s :s :s )

  • I find the distortion characteristics that exist in the iOS DRC synthesiser similar to many analogue synths I've used.

    Distortion characteristics of the VCA, the filter feedback loop, filter, and the imperfection (distortion) of the osc waveforms are the things that make analogue synths sound nice IMO.

    DRC has the ability to impart subtle, and not-so-subtle distortion/saturation.

    The mixer section has sliders that allow you to dial-in the amount of distortion/saturation for master, pre-gain, oscillator one, oscillator two, etc. The sliders and the way they control the individual components (master, Pre-gain, osc1, etc.) react in an interconnected manner.

    Combine the above with the VCA's keyboard tracking, velocity tracking, filter modulation keyboard tracking and velocity tracking, and you will hear some very organic, punchy, analogue like sounds.

    DRC can be a very flexible/deep synthesiser. I'm looking forward to its AU release.

    Hope that helps Cib.

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