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https://forum.audiob.us/discussion/34030/urgent-psa-hold-off-updating-to-ios-12-4-if-you-use-apps-in-output-slot-in-audiobus

Astronomy question

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Comments

  • edited March 2018

    @Zen210507 said:
    The idea is not to move Earth as we know it, but rather, imagine if Earth had been a little further out from the sun.

    I see. Interesting idea. Sorry about my misinterpretation.

    AFAIK, there is nothing in astrophysics that says a planet of the same size as Earth orbiting the same size of sun, with the same set of system planets, must be at the exact location we find ourselves.

    If there is any such rule, preventing an Earth from establishing its orbit a few million miles further out, I would be grateful to learn of it.

    well, I'm neither astronomer nor mathematician. But what I gathered from Johannes Kepler's work is that every planetary sphere is inscribed (geometrical term meaning) in another planet's Platonic solid, described by their orbits. However I'm not sure if he used circles (spheres) or ellipses (ellipsoids) for his calculations. I think he used (rightfully) the latter, but I'm not sure, because it is much more difficult to calculate ellipses than circles. Even if he simplified his calculations with spheres and circles, it is an astounding work. This is something I wanted to investigate long time ago, but never found the time.

    But let's go from the macrocosmos to the microcosmos, which are similar, congruent. Which is below is like that which is above (Emerald Tablet). Every nucleon (proton, neutron) has its exact place and energy, every electron surrounding the nucleus has its orbital distance and energy and speed. If these parameters wouldn't be met, atoms wouldn't be stable. Everything would fall apart instantly. So it is in the macrocosmos. Every planet has to have its exact orbit (distance from sun, speed) to keep the solar system intact and stable.

    The whole thing is about stability. As we observe that atoms and solar systems (not only ours, we have knowledge of other solar systems) are indeed stable for a period of time, we can conclude that their structure must be right. Exactly right. If we change the natural conditions of atoms with a lot of thermal energy, we can trigger nuclear disintegration, destroy the stability, reduce order.

    The Wikipedia article about Harmonices Mundi is very short unfortunately, but there are printed books that describe the whole matter much larger. They are big, heavy, and expensive, that's one reason I didn't buy them yet. I will buy them one day, and, hopefully, can contribute more to this discussion. These are things that you don't find easily on the internet I'm afraid.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kepler's_laws_of_planetary_motion#Third_law
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonices_Mundi
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mysterium_Cosmographicum
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Platonic_solid
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nucleus
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emerald_Tablet

  • @Phil999 said:

    These are things that you don't find easily on the internet I'm afraid.

    Yes, it does appear to be a bigger question. :)

    At least I have a better idea now. Ultimately, I’m not trying to pass detailed scrutiny by brilliant scientific minds, only to have the science elements in my work sound plausible. So thanks very much for your help, and the links.

  • Phil999’s parallels between the solar system and atoms can only be taken so far. The concept of electrons orbiting the nucleus on specific “tracks” like the planets is really a pre-quantum physics idea. And electrons change their energy levels and hence “orbits” all the time, absorbing and re-emitting energy. When energy is emited by an electron dropping to a lower energy state, it does so by emitting a photon at a particular frequency which is what gives each element its characteristic spectrum.

    As for planets, I don’t think that a small difference in one of the orbits would make the rest of the system unstable. It would if the orbits were too close to each other, but that is not the case in the example you are looking at.

  • @PhilW said:
    As for planets, I don’t think that a small difference in one of the orbits would make the rest of the system unstable. It would if the orbits were too close to each other, but that is not the case in the example you are looking at.

    >

    Thanks, PhilW. I feel more secure in writing something halfway credible. :)

  • edited March 2018

    I agree @PhilW, although we both don't know how much deviation of planetary orbits can be absorbed without consequences. But we do know that the atomic structure we use is just a model (there are several atomic models actually, one for each purpose, or research target). Electrons probably surround the nucleus in very strange ways that are too difficult to describe mathematically. Their paths are more like vortexes, and physicist avoid fluid dynamics like the devil. Impossible to calculate or predict, hence this invention of quantum mechanics.

    Anyway, it's an interesting thought experiment. And what we can take home is the fact that everything around us has a specific order, to be as stable as it is, and that there are many similarities to what we are interested in - music. Harmony. Scales. Even if Kepler's calculations were not perfectly accurate, he was a great innovator.

  • edited March 2018

    @Zen210507 said:
    Yes, it does appear to be a bigger question. :)

    very big. But we don't have to know such things. I think it's good if we know some principles.

    Maybe you could reveal what you have in mind in your project?

  • edited March 2018

    @Phil999 said:
    Maybe you could reveal what you have in mind in your project?

    >

    Oh, it’s early days of research and character/ plot building for an SF novel.

    The idea of an alternate Earth is, of course, well trod. How and why interaction occurs is the novel part, which obviously I need to keep to myself until the work is done. :)

    I don’t mind revealing that it is great fun, planning divergent history, contingent on certain events. Not just the big changes, but what goes in for pure fun as throwaway nuggets. Such as, a culture where The Beatles lost McCartney early on, and both parties went on to separate success. What may have become of the Fab Four under circumstances where their lives were not utterly consumed with music, is fun to imagineer.

  • ...surely the Fab Three in that case!

  • edited March 2018

    @PhilW said:
    ...surely the Fab Three in that case!

    >

    No, in this scenario it was the Fab Four as we know them, for a couple of years. Macca left, and was replaced by Billy Campbell. After legal threats, the second incarnation of the band was renamed The Silver Beatles. Macca became Paul Raven with his Buddy Holly inspired backing group Rave On. :)

    As for what happened in later times....

  • edited March 2018

    edit ... :)

    whilst i believe entirely in a more harmonious 13 moonth calendar, i didn't mean to spam the idea ... this picture was posted BEFORE my comment, but has just appeared :)

    i'm just learning this eCommunication ;)

  • @u0421793 said:
    Another significant effect is that astrology would be proven to be bollocks as you’d have to shoehorn in an extra starsign and displace all the existing ones.

    Astrology has already been disproven, for many reasons. I’m part of one reason: my birthday in December falls within a short period of time when the sun is in the constellation Ophiuchus, which would make make me an Ophiuchan - a 13th zodiacal constellation. Can’t have that, the number 13, can we? The horrors!

    I could go on.

  • edited March 2018

    @Zen210507 said:

    @gusgranite said:
    Isn’t there a desktop app that lets you simulate this stuff? I think it’s this one http://universesandbox.com

    >

    Fiddled with that before even starting thread, and couldn’t get what I wanted.

    If your using Universe Sandbox 2 then open the solar system sim and select the earth in the info tab on the right select the basic tab. Scroll down to "Orbital Period" and change from 365 to say 395 and it will adjust the earth's orbit for you and you can then see the results of the changes it would have.

  • But Dr. Flatard says the Eath is flat! :p

  • edited March 2018

    @hacked_to_pieces said:
    If your using Universe Sandbox 2 then open the solar system sim and select the earth in the info tab on the right select the basic tab. Scroll down to "Orbital Period" and change from 365 to say 395 and it will adjust the earth's orbit for you and you can then see the results of the changes it would have.

    >

    A version 2. Ah, right, will grab that an give it a try. Thanks. :)

    EDIT. Errrr, what I grabbed looks nothing like your screen grab, and has none of the same controls. Just a load of chunky stuff that keeps throwing up adverts.

  • edited March 2018

    @Brain said:

    @u0421793 said:
    Another significant effect is that astrology would be proven to be bollocks as you’d have to shoehorn in an extra starsign and displace all the existing ones.

    Astrology has already been disproven, for many reasons. I’m part of one reason: my birthday in December falls within a short period of time when the sun is in the constellation Ophiuchus, which would make make me an Ophiuchan - a 13th zodiacal constellation. Can’t have that, the number 13, can we? The horrors!

    I could go on.

    At risk of that, there’s this instead: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ophiuchus#Ophiuchus_and_the_zodiac
    (And yes, mine too)

  • @Zen210507 said:

    @hacked_to_pieces said:
    If your using Universe Sandbox 2 then open the solar system sim and select the earth in the info tab on the right select the basic tab. Scroll down to "Orbital Period" and change from 365 to say 395 and it will adjust the earth's orbit for you and you can then see the results of the changes it would have.

    >

    A version 2. Ah, right, will grab that an give it a try. Thanks. :)

    EDIT. Errrr, what I grabbed looks nothing like your screen grab, and has none of the same controls. Just a load of chunky stuff that keeps throwing up adverts.

    Just checking you mean desktop not iOS? The iOS app is appalling but I’m interested in the desktop app. Not sure they’re even the same people the iOS one is so bad.

  • @gusgranite said:
    Just checking you mean desktop not iOS? The iOS app is appalling but I’m interested in the desktop app. Not sure they’re even the same people the iOS one is so bad.

    >

    Ahhhhhh, understanding dawns. :) I was talking about the IOS version. Now I know what to look for, at some point today I will see if I can grab the desktop model.

  • edited March 2018

    The ios version of sandbox universe 2 is not made by the same company as the desktop. ios version is just stealing the name. The ios app you want is Pocket Universe 3d sandbox.

  • @hacked_to_pieces said:
    The ios version of sandbox universe 2 is not made by the same company as the desktop. ios version is just stealing the name. The ios app you want is Pocket Universe 3d sandbox.

    >

    Okay, thanks for that. :)

  • @Zen210507 said:

    The question is, roughly how much further out from the sun would Earth need to orbit, in order to have a thirteen month year? And by roughly, I’m thinking how much closer to Mars orbit.

    97.6 million miles or 1.05 AU

  • @CracklePot Mr. Neal Degrass Tyson says its pear shaped.

  • edited March 2018

    @gmslayton said:
    @CracklePot Mr. Neal Degrass Tyson says its pear shaped.

    Well Mr. CracklePot says Mr. Neal Degass Tyson is pear shaped. :p
    Just playin’. I love me some N.D.T. :)

  • @hacked_to_pieces said:

    @Zen210507 said:

    97.6 million miles or 1.05 AU

    >

    Right you are, guv. :)

  • @hacked_to_pieces said:

    @Zen210507 said:

    The question is, roughly how much further out from the sun would Earth need to orbit, in order to have a thirteen month year? And by roughly, I’m thinking how much closer to Mars orbit.

    97.6 million miles or 1.05 AU

    Host or plugin?

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