Do you agree with Quincy Jones about this?

supadom

@richardyot said:
Here's a big song with a musical hook, but interestingly the synth melody is played throughout the song, except the middle eight where there is no musical backing behind the vocal. So even though the loop is quite hooky, it gets repeated a lot throughout the track and it's the vocals that change over it. This is definitely a different kind of song structure to what was around 20-30 years ago IMO. In the past you were more likely to get a call-and-response thing between the riff and the vocals.

I’ve noticed how this kind of muted (marimba-like) synth sound happens to appear in several pop songs on the radio in 2017. That’s what makes most of pop music these days crap. One person nails it and others try to copy it. Likely this stuff always used to happen but somehow it feels more evident now.

richardyot

@supadom said:
One person nails it and others try to copy it.

Or maybe one person nails it, then repeats it again on the next hit

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Martin

Hmtx

Every ed sheran song I have heard (disclaimer: I’ve only heard the hits, not actually listened to a whole album) is a 4 bar loop. That’s how he composes. Not surprising for the melody to go the whole song.

Every deadmau5 track is a 32 beat loop, that’s how he works.

I don’t agree with QJ, but If an artist doesn’t keep the song interesting with layers playing off each other, melody and rhythm changes, etc then yes it can be dull. But the problem isn’t the limits of 4 repeating bars, it’s what the artist does or doesn’t do within those limits.

mannix

@richardyot said:

@supadom said:
One person nails it and others try to copy it.

Or maybe one person nails it, then repeats it again on the next hit

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Martin

Also Stock, Aitken and Waterman spring into mind, they made amongst others a star of Kylie Minogue
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stock_Aitken_Waterman

Hmtx

And I would say that Ed Sheehan song ^ is an example of a “dull melody” marimba-synth-phrase that gets over-used in the song. But the other components make up for it and keep it interesting.

greengrocer

@mannix said:

@richardyot said:

@supadom said:
One person nails it and others try to copy it.

Or maybe one person nails it, then repeats it again on the next hit

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Martin

Also Stock, Aitken and Waterman spring into mind, they made amongst others a star of Kylie Minogue
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stock_Aitken_Waterman

Again a good and very informative thread! Thank you all so far
To go to more influential producers what about Phil Spector and closer in time you had the famous poducers duo Chinn/ Chapman who made bands like the Sweet, Mud, Smokie and even produced Tina Turner (in later stage of her carreer) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Chapman

[Deleted User]

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richardyot

@Hmtx said:
Every ed sheran song I have heard (disclaimer: I’ve only heard the hits, not actually listened to a whole album) is a 4 bar loop. That’s how he composes. Not surprising for the melody to go the whole song.

Right, he started out with an acoustic and a looper pedal, so that's how he writes, good point.

JohnnyGoodyear

@Max23 said:

@JohnnyGoodyear said:

@supadom said:
The thing that he didn’t quite get about rap is that for many people the lyrics take centre stage. QJ talks of it like a typical muso, you get the beat and the hook and the lyrics will kinda work themselves out. I used to think that when I was 18.

The thing is many musicians underestimate The Words, and it's true that many listeners do too, but for most the vocal (even if made of mumbo) is central to their experience (or the memorability) of any song...

yes but those people can't express that it is the chord change that gives them goosebumps
this is a very good example for this

listen from 2.30 to 3.30
its the change from melancholy to euphoria
its a really clever arrangement

I agree with you but you're wrong

[Deleted User]

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dokwok2

@JohnnyGoodyear said:

@supadom said:
The thing that he didn’t quite get about rap is that for many people the lyrics take centre stage. QJ talks of it like a typical muso, you get the beat and the hook and the lyrics will kinda work themselves out. I used to think that when I was 18.

The thing is many musicians underestimate The Words, and it's true that many listeners do too, but for most the vocal (even if made of mumbo) is central to their experience (or the memorability) of any song...

Most lyrics are embarrassingly bland, puerile, or offensive. It rarely matters. Most people want something they can hum, or just tap the steering wheel to.

My day job, by the way, is teaching literature to college students. The few times we've analyzed song lyrics in class, it's always been a disappointment. I love Zeppelin, but pity the poor boy or girl who tries to live by the wisdom of "Stairway."

richardyot

Well don't deconstruct Whole Lotta Love then

supadom

@dokwok2 said:

@JohnnyGoodyear said:

@supadom said:
The thing that he didn’t quite get about rap is that for many people the lyrics take centre stage. QJ talks of it like a typical muso, you get the beat and the hook and the lyrics will kinda work themselves out. I used to think that when I was 18.

The thing is many musicians underestimate The Words, and it's true that many listeners do too, but for most the vocal (even if made of mumbo) is central to their experience (or the memorability) of any song...

Most lyrics are embarrassingly bland, puerile, or offensive. It rarely matters. Most people want something they can hum, or just tap the steering wheel to.

My day job, by the way, is teaching literature to college students. The few times we've analyzed song lyrics in class, it's always been a disappointment. I love Zeppelin, but pity the poor boy or girl who tries to live by the wisdom of "Stairway."

If most of what you see around you is sandstone it doesn’t mean you should stop looking for gold.

[Deleted User]

The user and all related content has been deleted.

TheoryNotes

I think the original development of styles of music basically comes down to the path of least resistance which makes the most pleasing sounds to the practitioners.

If you are surrounded by a culture that supports marching band instruments, and everyone can sight read, and technically perform what the sheet music requires, then at some point by tossing the script jazz was the path of least resistance.

And then it develops from there and usually gets more sophisticated and deep from people playing with the new style.

Basically every style imaginable had a similar process to development.

I guess that would be the argument I'd present to Quincy on that topic.

greengrocer

@TheoryNotes said:
I think the original development of styles of music basically comes down to the path of least resistance which makes the most pleasing sounds to the practitioners.

If you are surrounded by a culture that supports marching band instruments, and everyone can sight read, and technically perform what the sheet music requires, then at some point by tossing the script jazz was the path of least resistance.

And then it develops from there and usually gets more sophisticated and deep from people playing with the new style.

Basically every style imaginable had a similar process to development.

I guess that would be the argument I'd present to Quincy on that topic.

Good point! You could also say that pop music is mass product. So the easier and faster you can produce it the better. With the internet you can compare and "steal" the lastest things easily. So there will be a lot of competition for the fast money grabbers that have nothing original.

greengrocer

@Max23 said:

@dokwok2 said:

@JohnnyGoodyear said:

@supadom said:
The thing that he didn’t quite get about rap is that for many people the lyrics take centre stage. QJ talks of it like a typical muso, you get the beat and the hook and the lyrics will kinda work themselves out. I used to think that when I was 18.

The thing is many musicians underestimate The Words, and it's true that many listeners do too, but for most the vocal (even if made of mumbo) is central to their experience (or the memorability) of any song...

Most lyrics are embarrassingly bland, puerile, or offensive. It rarely matters. Most people want something they can hum, or just tap the steering wheel to.

My day job, by the way, is teaching literature to college students. The few times we've analyzed song lyrics in class, it's always been a disappointment. I love Zeppelin, but pity the poor boy or girl who tries to live by the wisdom of "Stairway."

not everything is banal
there is deep stuff too

Do you have some more recent stuff, most is from last century

greengrocer

@supadom said:

@dokwok2 said:

@JohnnyGoodyear said:

@supadom said:
The thing that he didn’t quite get about rap is that for many people the lyrics take centre stage. QJ talks of it like a typical muso, you get the beat and the hook and the lyrics will kinda work themselves out. I used to think that when I was 18.

The thing is many musicians underestimate The Words, and it's true that many listeners do too, but for most the vocal (even if made of mumbo) is central to their experience (or the memorability) of any song...

Most lyrics are embarrassingly bland, puerile, or offensive. It rarely matters. Most people want something they can hum, or just tap the steering wheel to.

My day job, by the way, is teaching literature to college students. The few times we've analyzed song lyrics in class, it's always been a disappointment. I love Zeppelin, but pity the poor boy or girl who tries to live by the wisdom of "Stairway."

If most of what you see around you is sandstone it doesn’t mean you should stop looking for gold.

Any golden tips?

[Deleted User]

The user and all related content has been deleted.

CracklePot

@mannix said:

@richardyot said:

@SealTeamSick said:
Probably the brain craves repetition a lot more than variety but it’s more apparent to you that you don’t like it when a bad loop repeats too much. A bad song that changes more may be even worse but you perceive the variety and give it more of a break in your judgement.

One thing that contemporary artists seem to do a lot less is to have musical hooks alongside the vocal hooks. So many classic songs will have a really great musical motif or riff to go along with the killer vocal melody, and I think that maybe having the two together is one thing that creates variety and interest as the instrumental and vocal melodies play off each other.

Just to give some examples:

Bad Blood, one of the biggest hits of the decade, very much hip-hop infused. There's no instrumental hook at all, it's all on the vocals and the rhythm, and the main vocal melody is almost nursery-rhyme simple, the melody in the middle eight is probably the best bit of the song IMO, but from what I can tell the song is all built on the rhythm, the dynamics, and the vocals.

For contrast, another song that uses a relatively simple melody and a lot of repetition, but also has a musical hook to play against the vocal melody, in my opinion it creates a much more interesting listen.

But many many classic songs of the past would mix a riff/musical motif with a killer vocal melody, across every genre. Sweet Dreams, Sweet Child O Mine, Eye Of The Tiger, Superstition, Satisfaction etc etc the list is endless. Something contemporary music seems to do less and less these days as all the emphasis seems to be placed on vocal hooks alone. Just IMO of course, YMMV.

Interesting observation!

Something you can hear also in a lot of contemporary pop music: the millennial whoop

It seems to have been around a lot longer. It adds a sing-a-long quality to a song. Punk bands (The Misfits for sure) used it frequently. Here is probably my favorite overuse of the Chant Chorus. The last half of the song is all “oh-ohs.”

supadom

@greengrocer said:

@supadom said:

@dokwok2 said:

@JohnnyGoodyear said:

@supadom said:
The thing that he didn’t quite get about rap is that for many people the lyrics take centre stage. QJ talks of it like a typical muso, you get the beat and the hook and the lyrics will kinda work themselves out. I used to think that when I was 18.

The thing is many musicians underestimate The Words, and it's true that many listeners do too, but for most the vocal (even if made of mumbo) is central to their experience (or the memorability) of any song...

Most lyrics are embarrassingly bland, puerile, or offensive. It rarely matters. Most people want something they can hum, or just tap the steering wheel to.

My day job, by the way, is teaching literature to college students. The few times we've analyzed song lyrics in class, it's always been a disappointment. I love Zeppelin, but pity the poor boy or girl who tries to live by the wisdom of "Stairway."

If most of what you see around you is sandstone it doesn’t mean you should stop looking for gold.

Any golden tips?

Nick Drake, John Martyn, Rickie Lee Jones, Jesca Hoop, Tim Buckley, Leonard Cohen. These my favs from 20 years ago. Now I sometimes get stunned when listening to random stuff on the net. It's personal anyway. Each to their own, choose your own poison etc.

[Deleted User]

The > @Max23 said:

@MonzoPro said:

@Max23 said:

@mannix said:
KLF wrote a book called The Manual (1988) in which they come up with some nice and similar findings you describe.

The Manual (How to Have a Number One the Easy Way) is a 1988 book by "The Timelords" (Bill Drummond and Jimmy Cauty), better known as The KLF. It is a step by step guide to achieving a No.1 single with no money or musical skills, and a case study of the duo's UK novelty pop No. 1 "Doctorin' the Tardis"

Jamie Reynolds of Klaxons admitted in an interview to reading The Manual and stated that he "took direct instructions from it.... Get yourself a studio, get a groove going, sing some absolute nonsense over the top, put a breakbeat behind it, and you're away! That's what I did! That's genuinely it. I read that, I noted down the golden rules of pop, and applied that to what we're doing and made sure that that always applies to everything we do. That way, we always come out with a sort of catchy hit number."

You can download a copy here: http://www.tomrobinson.com/resource/klf.txt

lol KLF couldn't play a melody or harmony to save their lives.
they had a guy come in and play something for them ^^
they showed him we did this, and then the guy played something that actually worked, lol

That’s bollocks, if you’ll excuse my French. Drummond and Cauty both play instruments, but for the majority of the KLF work they used samplers and session players, as this was ‘the new big thing’ at the time.

They’re not the hottest musicians in the business, but they did have an uncanny knack of tapping into an upcoming zeitgeist.

nah, it isn't
I can play Beethoven on the piano but I can't harmonize shit without scratching my head and fooling around
so it means nothing if you can play an instrument ...
i have to fool around and listen and fool around again until I found something that sounds kind of like what I want, lol

Factually incorrect gibberish.

rs2000

@SealTeamSick said:

...

Probably the brain craves repetition a lot more than variety but it’s more apparent to you that you don’t like it when a bad loop repeats too much. A bad song that changes more may be even worse but you perceive the variety and give it more of a break in your judgement.

In other words my intuition is that more songs are made worse from the pressure to complicate them than from the desire to keep them simple (and repeating).

My opinion is that more than song structure, the problem with music today is there should be more instrumental solos/improv. Takes some pressure off the main melody. It’s a variety treat for your brain that is forgiving to even the simplest progression. Or vice versa I guess.

I don't judge a song by its complexity. Maybe it's much more the pressure to "simply" write a good song?
I believe that I can hear if the composer had something to say, or if it's just an assembly of phrases that reminds well-known genres and/or songs and while listening I can already tell you what comes next.

I really don't think that a song necessarily gets better by adding a solo or an improvisation.

I’m reminded of Frank Zappa. In some of the most complicated songs (e.g., Inca Roads) he would like to take a break from the craziness and do a guitar solo over two major chords repeated. Really ties the song together. I mean, you could do a little solo break on hip hop. Pop rock used to do it all the time. And skill didn’t matter that much.

Inca Roads has a very strong melody in the first place. The guitar solo is a welcome icing on the cake, but I'd appreciate the song just as much without it. There's a lot more in that song, including contradicting elements that you rarely find in songs from other composers.

supadom

@MonzoPro said:
The > @Max23 said:

@MonzoPro said:

@Max23 said:

@mannix said:
KLF wrote a book called The Manual (1988) in which they come up with some nice and similar findings you describe.

The Manual (How to Have a Number One the Easy Way) is a 1988 book by "The Timelords" (Bill Drummond and Jimmy Cauty), better known as The KLF. It is a step by step guide to achieving a No.1 single with no money or musical skills, and a case study of the duo's UK novelty pop No. 1 "Doctorin' the Tardis"

Jamie Reynolds of Klaxons admitted in an interview to reading The Manual and stated that he "took direct instructions from it.... Get yourself a studio, get a groove going, sing some absolute nonsense over the top, put a breakbeat behind it, and you're away! That's what I did! That's genuinely it. I read that, I noted down the golden rules of pop, and applied that to what we're doing and made sure that that always applies to everything we do. That way, we always come out with a sort of catchy hit number."

You can download a copy here: http://www.tomrobinson.com/resource/klf.txt

lol KLF couldn't play a melody or harmony to save their lives.
they had a guy come in and play something for them ^^
they showed him we did this, and then the guy played something that actually worked, lol

That’s bollocks, if you’ll excuse my French. Drummond and Cauty both play instruments, but for the majority of the KLF work they used samplers and session players, as this was ‘the new big thing’ at the time.

They’re not the hottest musicians in the business, but they did have an uncanny knack of tapping into an upcoming zeitgeist.

nah, it isn't
I can play Beethoven on the piano but I can't harmonize shit without scratching my head and fooling around
so it means nothing if you can play an instrument ...
i have to fool around and listen and fool around again until I found something that sounds kind of like what I want, lol

Factually incorrect gibberish.

Not unlikely, I couldn't make anything of it.

[Deleted User]

The user and all related content has been deleted.

CracklePot

I agree with QJ in that too much repetition without variation causes the brain to tune out.
But he is definitely over-simplifying things when he makes his sweeping statements about hip hop. Also, a great emcee free styling over a looped beat isn’t really all that different from a soloist or vocalist improvising over a vamp.

[Deleted User]

@Max23 said:

@MonzoPro said:
The > @Max23 said:

@MonzoPro said:

@Max23 said:

@mannix said:
KLF wrote a book called The Manual (1988) in which they come up with some nice and similar findings you describe.

The Manual (How to Have a Number One the Easy Way) is a 1988 book by "The Timelords" (Bill Drummond and Jimmy Cauty), better known as The KLF. It is a step by step guide to achieving a No.1 single with no money or musical skills, and a case study of the duo's UK novelty pop No. 1 "Doctorin' the Tardis"

Jamie Reynolds of Klaxons admitted in an interview to reading The Manual and stated that he "took direct instructions from it.... Get yourself a studio, get a groove going, sing some absolute nonsense over the top, put a breakbeat behind it, and you're away! That's what I did! That's genuinely it. I read that, I noted down the golden rules of pop, and applied that to what we're doing and made sure that that always applies to everything we do. That way, we always come out with a sort of catchy hit number."

You can download a copy here: http://www.tomrobinson.com/resource/klf.txt

lol KLF couldn't play a melody or harmony to save their lives.
they had a guy come in and play something for them ^^
they showed him we did this, and then the guy played something that actually worked, lol

That’s bollocks, if you’ll excuse my French. Drummond and Cauty both play instruments, but for the majority of the KLF work they used samplers and session players, as this was ‘the new big thing’ at the time.

They’re not the hottest musicians in the business, but they did have an uncanny knack of tapping into an upcoming zeitgeist.

nah, it isn't
I can play Beethoven on the piano but I can't harmonize shit without scratching my head and fooling around
so it means nothing if you can play an instrument ...
i have to fool around and listen and fool around again until I found something that sounds kind of like what I want, lol

Factually incorrect gibberish.

cough so what does this mean to you? ^^
It is a step by step guide to achieving a No.1 single with no (money or) musical skills
I am going to laugh about this conversation the entire evening, gentlemen.

So they wrote a how-to-guide for creating a number 1 novelty hit single? Doesn’t mean they “couldn't play a melody or harmony to save their lives”.

Perhaps you’d care to share your music here, and show those KLF boys how it’s done? Since you’re such an expert.

dokwok2

@Max23 said:
not everything is banal
there is deep stuff too

Of course: that's why I said, "Most lyrics are embarrassingly bland, puerile, or offensive" instead of "All lyrics..."

The song I heard on the way home from school is a case in point:

Hey, uh huh huh
Hey, uh huh huh

What I like about you, you hold me tight
Tell me I'm the only one, wanna' come over tonight, yea

Keep on whispering in my ear
Tell me all the things that I wanna' to hear, 'cause that's true

That's what I like
That's what I like

What I like about you, you really know how to dance
When you go up, down, jump around, think about true romance, yea

Keep on whispering in my ear
Tell me all the things that I wanna' to hear, 'cause that's true
That's what I like about you
That's what I like about you
That's what I like about you
That's what I like about you

Wahh!
Hey!

What I like about you, you keep me warm at night
Never wanna' let you go, know you make me feel alright, yea

Keep on whispering in my ear
Tell me all the things that I wanna' to hear, 'cause that's true
That's what I like about you
That's what I like about you
That's what I like about you
That's what I like about you
That's what I like about you (whispered)
That's what I like about you
That's what I like about you
That's what I like about you

Hey, uh huh huh, hey hey hey
Hey, uh huh huh, brrr
Hey, uh huh huh, hey

I wish I'd written that. It's great! But not because of the lyrics.

[Deleted User]

The user and all related content has been deleted.

[Deleted User]

@Max23 said:

@MonzoPro said:

@Max23 said:

@MonzoPro said:
The > @Max23 said:

@MonzoPro said:

@Max23 said:

@mannix said:
KLF wrote a book called The Manual (1988) in which they come up with some nice and similar findings you describe.

The Manual (How to Have a Number One the Easy Way) is a 1988 book by "The Timelords" (Bill Drummond and Jimmy Cauty), better known as The KLF. It is a step by step guide to achieving a No.1 single with no money or musical skills, and a case study of the duo's UK novelty pop No. 1 "Doctorin' the Tardis"

Jamie Reynolds of Klaxons admitted in an interview to reading The Manual and stated that he "took direct instructions from it.... Get yourself a studio, get a groove going, sing some absolute nonsense over the top, put a breakbeat behind it, and you're away! That's what I did! That's genuinely it. I read that, I noted down the golden rules of pop, and applied that to what we're doing and made sure that that always applies to everything we do. That way, we always come out with a sort of catchy hit number."

You can download a copy here: http://www.tomrobinson.com/resource/klf.txt

lol KLF couldn't play a melody or harmony to save their lives.
they had a guy come in and play something for them ^^
they showed him we did this, and then the guy played something that actually worked, lol

That’s bollocks, if you’ll excuse my French. Drummond and Cauty both play instruments, but for the majority of the KLF work they used samplers and session players, as this was ‘the new big thing’ at the time.

They’re not the hottest musicians in the business, but they did have an uncanny knack of tapping into an upcoming zeitgeist.

nah, it isn't
I can play Beethoven on the piano but I can't harmonize shit without scratching my head and fooling around
so it means nothing if you can play an instrument ...
i have to fool around and listen and fool around again until I found something that sounds kind of like what I want, lol

Factually incorrect gibberish.

cough so what does this mean to you? ^^
It is a step by step guide to achieving a No.1 single with no (money or) musical skills
I am going to laugh about this conversation the entire evening, gentlemen.

So they wrote a how-to-guide for creating a number 1 novelty hit single? Doesn’t mean they “couldn't play a melody or harmony to save their lives”.

Perhaps you’d care to share your music here, and show those KLF boys how it’s done? Since you’re such an expert.

and your point is?
sorry this below my niveau of conversation

Gibberish. Rejoin the thread when you’ve sobered up.