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This seems like thought police territory. There is no way to know his heart and mind. Eric Clapton says he isn't racist despite the very hurtful things he said about "wogs," "coons," and non-whites coming to/being in England.
Here's what Eddie Murphy had to say on the subject.
The one thread that I wish would just end. It doesn’t seem as its going to so, might as well add my stupidly simple thoughts to the pile. So many people spend so much of their time these days trying to relive history instead of embracing their future. Trying to draw lines in the sand to further segregate themselves into groups. Trying to make their individual voice heard with little regard to others standing around them. We should devote such effort into learning about each other so we can understand and be tolerant of one another to help us unite as a human race. But what I have noticed is that when we try to do this, it only makes the groups larger and with that comes power. With power comes intolerance and conflict, thus dividing us all. I guess what I am trying to say is that we have wasted 7 pages on this topic and have grown more and more intolerant of each other to the point that none of us can agree that we have each learned something from each other.
I hope I am wrong. But I know that sometimes we try to express ourselves so much to be understood that we don’t even try to understand the other side.
I hear you, the thing is that institutionalized racism cannot be both a 'truth' and a 'play on identity politics'. One is over here, and one is over but they don't occupy the same space and the people engaging in either of them don't occupy the same purpose either.
None of the white friends of mine that run in the circles I run in are tired of identity politics because it's not something they indulge in, I also don't have any white friends who feel white guilt, or guilty for anything outside of assuming the current administration wouldn't rise to power ( and that's not a white thang), but they are tired of being beat over the head with institutionalized racism, since 'that's not a black or white thang' and effects all non-racist.
In my case the issue isn't something for me to champion or not, it's a reality that has a real impact on everyday lives on every level.
However I do champion the issue of BeatMachines, which is why you'll only ever find me starting threads about beat machines as opposed to these threads in which I'm a responder....
because like Dr. King said "One of the great liabilities of history is that all too many people fail to remain awake through great periods of social change. Every society has its protectors of status quo and its fraternities of the indifferent who are notorious for sleeping through revolutions. Today, our very survival depends on our ability to stay awake, to adjust to new ideas, to remain vigilant and to face the challenge of change
@Greengrocer, it's not that you haven't been able to reach me about Elvis, it's that you've responded to everything I've said with the exception of my pointing out to you that apparently Elvis did forgive, and support the glaring ideals of Richard Nixon... I understand that this truth doesn't fit your narrative, but that's not a reflection of either you or I , that's a reflection of Elvis and Nixon.... and it's a reflection that deserves our in-depth analysis just like chuck d and Farrakhan.
Do not know about Clapton. But the shine my shoes story has debunked already so much times. Here's a good explanation: https://www.snopes.com/music/artists/presley1.asp
I don't think the 'shine my shoes story was the point of his post.
I guess I'm not getting why you're focused on institutional racism. Is it that you and your white friends feel it's the most insidious form of racism? My post that (seemingly) started this exchange was about discrimination and disinformation, in general.
If you want to see racism you can see it everywhere, but is it actual there or just in the mind of the observant. When you go there it is tricky business. Same territory as feelings. Do you believe people if they talk about their feelings being hurt or is this just an act of play to get power over others. I personally am inclined in believing the conduct (that I can see) than actually believe what a person is saying about his feelings or speculate that there a certain patterns deep burried in de subconciousness that maybe or maybe not could be there.
If I look at Elvis behaviour (or what I learned from it today) I can't see a racist that's very clear to me.
what lives inside someones heart belongs to them, I have no right or interest in trying to change someone's beliefs so it has nothing to do with altruism for me, it's a practical matter. Hate me because of my skin color have at it, hate me because of my skin color and prevent me from working, having a place to live, being able to walk safely down the street (all things that I've experienced) and it becomes something I cannot abide... Must be Vigilant, Hope for Unity demand Equality.
Not that I believe academics have all the answers, but I'll leave you guys with this paragraph from Harvard Magazine's review of the Enlightenment book:
"branded racist if said by a white person" ?... Tommy Sotomayer is not only accurately branded a racist by white people, black people, and non-racist in general but he's a crackpot racist at that. I'm sure you're not one of those people who think black people can't be racist right, just because he's a racist doesn't mean he doesn't speak any truth for example when he speaks about drugs in the black community being a bad thing he says the exact same thing that Farrakhan says... they both talk about wanting drugs out of the black community and they're both racist, but what you won't here him do is bring up 'Chicago Gangs' when someone is addressing the subject of radical muslim terrorism and bigotry like he does as a response to someone addressing police brutality. See, when it comes to conservative diatribes regarding racism, bigotry, and inequality like radical muslim bigotry, he understands perfectly well, even automagically so that Chicago gangs is a different subject and an inappropriate context with which to retort with...
but if you bring up police brutality in any form or fashion, the issue is immediately not about the justice system but about the gangs in Chicago lol...... anyway no matter how racist or not racist he is, he's even less credible. The way you can tell is not by how consistent he is against people he doesn't agree with, but how inconsistent he is within the framework of his own stated and acted upon belief system, in other words... 'gangs in Chicago' can't be the answer to every question of institutionalized injustice towards black people, but then when the subject of any other kind of injustice that is not directed at black people arises all of a sudden it can be addressed on it's own merits.
I wouldn't be surprised if when the Harvey Weinstein sex assault scandals broke out that for white women Tommy would support the 'me too ' movement but for any black women who came forward he'd blame the gangs in Chicago.
a better and less nonsensical analogy, hence I get the chuckles when folks berate and hate a Clinton for telling lies, but love and adore a Trump for being the metaphorical equivalent of the father of lies... it's like you don't really hate lies at all, you just hate Clinton. You've just relinquished any and all credibility you might have ever had because actually what you're against is your stated self.
I don't disagree with you Telecharge, it's the tale of living in more than one america. Who'd have thought that in this day and age we would have a president who would like to take us right back to said 1950's... not only does the struggle continue but we must continue to struggle.
I ghink> @telecharge said:
It is the exact opposite of insidious. It is legally codified. I think it’s why most white people (who are not actively racist) are upset that “everything has to be about race.” They haven’t done anything themselves, and life is hard everywhere.
This really smart video about redlining explains institutionalized racism wittily and succinctly.
And as for Chuck D, I think he’s mostly being provocative. He’s basically saying that these two towering icons of America do not speak for him in the least.
Elvis by any measure was a good guy and can be considered as seminal figure leading to the Civil Rights era. But you could understand how black Americans might resent someone rising to riches and fame playing “race” music — especially when black artists were excluded from commercial radio.
.. doesn't mean he doesn't speak any truth for example when he speaks about drugs in the black community being a bad thing.
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Whatever anyone’s personal take on why Tommy Sotomayer says, or how he says it, what I was trying to get across is that some of what he points out concerning problems - however unpalatable it may be - is still right.
Another example which springs to mind, and you may loathe this guy too, is Tucker Carlson. I watched an interview he did with a leading ‘Black Lives Matter’ activist, who just could not/ would not accept that a rally where white sympathisers who wished to attend were told not to turn up, was skewed thinking. According to the activist this was not racist!
All lives matter, as MLK was always keen to emphasise, and we need to work together against the real enemy, which is never defined by just a skin tone.
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On the other hand, nobody was excluded by Elvis, and he did credit where those songs came from. Because of Elvis, black music was getting heard on mainstream radio. Due to that exposure, Stax and Motown eventually followed.
A lot more songs he sang, incidentally, were written by white middle-aged Jewish folk. AFAIK, no one Jewish ever complained that they were not performing them.
My lovely old dad, now long gone, once told me that when the term Wog first came into general use, it stood for Western Oriental Gentleman, and was no more insulting that calling somone a Brit. Only later was it used offensively.
I recall, when I was at school, and the first influx of Asians were arriving in the UK, the first Pakistani kid in school was often referred to as the Paki. In those days, this was NOT an racial barb, but just a contraction of Pakistani.
As for Coon, when I hear that, I think of Alf Garnet, (a 60’s / 70’s TV character for younger readers) who was always portrayed
as being an out of date idiot, scared of those he did not understand. His wife, daughter, and son in law, then later his Afro-Carribean career, ALL thought he was a silly old man, and ALL regularly got the better of him. We laughed at him, not with him.
Man. All three of these responses absolutely miss the point and are completely tone deaf.
Black people do not have any real power or ability to exclude white people in any meaningful way. It’s silly to compare white people excluding black people from having a voice to black people wanting to stand on their own.
It’s also silly for you to pretend you care about white people attending BLM protests.
The statement All Lives Matter is such a grossly reductive response to any group who are asking that their lives matter as much as everyone else’s.
The “real enemy” depends on your skin tone. That’s not a divisive thing to say, it’s a factual American thing. If you are black or brown, your life is at greater risk. And you want to tell black and brown people to stop playing the race card?
Actually taking the time to explain why saying a bunch of racist things aren’t really that bad is tone deaf, backwards, and disrespectful to the nth degree. The degree to which a racial slur offends is not for those outside the target of said slur to decide. You need only the smallest amount of logic to conclude how absurd that would be.
Most of you who are so critical of identity politics or public enemy or black people have no goddamn idea what it’s like to live in America in that skin. You’re all just making these general assumptions according to what’s comfortable for you without any real knowledge of the obstacles. You’ve let whomever tell you whatever is easiest for you to swallow. You’ve only accepted what fits your experience because you don’t want to make room for the possibility that the world is not as you think it is. Your assumptions marginalize even more. It is not those who speak up who divide us, it is those who speak down without experience and true empathy.
Michael can close this thread and any other in the future for getting too political, but if people are going to talk with such authority on matters they have no clue about, with a complete disregard for the experiencers, I will say something every. single. time. It’s too goddamn important to keep our mouths shut.
Bollocks. Excluding people based on skin colour is racist, any time anywhere. And including all people stops no one from ‘having a voice.’
Please don’t tell me what I care about. You don’t know me at all. I care about the principle.
More bollocks. ‘Black Lives Matter’ is just another way to segregate and divide people. MLK thought that all lives matter, and that we should stand together regardless of race. Are you disagreing with that?
ISTM that no matter what anyone says to you in this thread, if they are white you are always going to claim they don’t understand, or worse have no right to express a reasonable polite view. You know nothing about them personally and are basing what you say purely on what you guess is their colour. What does that make you?
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That may be so, but why is he being misrepresented by the text. JW died in 1979, and therefore could not have been speaking to Black Lives Matter.
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What a fucking stupid thing to say. You’d like everyone male in an entire generation dead, because of a few idiots. That is truly disgusting.
What started as an interesting and I believe sincere discussion about QJ, PE and Elvis seems to get again out of hand with people shouting "arguments" and not listening to each other, sad that we have come so far...
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Nobody said you were a disgusting person. You just posted something in the heat of the moment. We all make mistakes. I can’t believe that you would really want to see millions of granddads dead, because a few among them also say silly things?
Most folk are great, when you give them a chance. Black, white, yellow, red, old, young, straight, gay, etc, etc. Room for all.
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Max, come on, you are making yourself sound so foolish. First you want millions dead, now you’d deny people a vote!
Some older people, having lived through a lot - and in the case of WW II veterans, saved the world for you and me - have wise heads on their shoulders.
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Kind of hard to listen to people who want millions dead, or think exclusion based on colour isn’t racist. But, I take your point. I’ve tried as hard as I can here. Now it’s time to let it go, and leave it to others.
Music to make, songs to sing.
Okay you want youth to rule forever. You should not forget that you also will get older.
It's clear I hear an idealist that wants a better world according to his own terms. People that don't fit in can drop dead. Reminds of USSR with gulags for the dissidents or even better Pol Pot's Cambodia. Good luck with that.