Bluetooth Midi what's your experience?

edited May 2017 in General

i found little information about Bluetooth Midi in the real wold. Do you have any experience? How is the latency? Can you really use it for playing live?

edit it seems that Korg Nanokey Studio has low latency but Akai's LPD wireless not...

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  • I used Livid Minim controller daily and love it.

    I am looking to get a small MIDI keyboard in the near future for travel.

    App wise, depends on the apps and the day it seems like any more.

    Do you mean apps or devices?

  • @RustiK i'm asking about devices.

  • edited May 2017

    @dermichl said:
    i found little information about Bluetooth Midi in the real wold.

    The same goes for Apple's documentation and implementation of it. The iPhone BT Midi configuration interface has been buggy from day 1 and Apple refuse to fix it, although they have acknowledged the bug. And they have committed a grand total of three lines to the developer documentation of BT support in iOS. /rant

  • Hi, I have used both Korg's Nanokontrol & Nanokey studios, & they have worked perfectly for me. The Apollo app worked well the last time I used it, but that was ages ago!

    Wishing you all the best :smiley:

  • @gdog said:
    Hi, I have used both Korg's Nanokontrol & Nanokey studios, & they have worked perfectly for me. The Apollo app worked well the last time I used it, but that was ages ago!

    Wishing you all the best :smiley:

    By worked perfectly do you mean with low latency? ATB

  • @RustiK said:
    I used Livid Minim controller daily and love it.

    I am looking to get a small MIDI keyboard in the near future for travel.

    App wise, depends on the apps and the day it seems like any more.

    Do you mean apps or devices?

    How do you use the Minim? I picked one up used and like the hardware but the software isn't my cup of tea.

  • @dermichl said:
    i found little information about Bluetooth Midi in the real wold. Do you have any experience? How is the latency? Can you really use it for playing live?

    edit it seems that Korg Nanokey Studio has low latency but Akai's LPD wireless not...

    I am using the Yamaha MD-BT01 and it works great so far. Gigged with it for the first time this past Saturday.

  • Works great with my Seaboard Rise in normal mode (no MPE). But it can't handle too much midi traffic. If i use all the polyphonic pitchbends, modulations in MPE mode it loose the connection (on my iPhone and my mac).
    So it's usable for a simple playing but not for some more complex things. I also never would trust it in a live situation.

  • I use bluetooth midi from macbook to ipad and it works great and i dont notice any latency(im sure there is few ms, but i dont notice it, so that doesent matter).

    I think the speed of bluetooth depends mostly on whether the hardwares support new enough bluetooth LE(or perhaps just any bt LE?).

  • @dermichl said:
    By worked perfectly do you mean with low latency? ATB

    Yes! Also, for the price they feel pretty good to me, especially the long sliders on the Kontrol!

    Also forgot to mention I've tried the Yamaha MD-BT01 too & that has been perfect playing a RefaceDX inside Music Studio, etc. The Quicco mi.1 is also a good option, but it isn't compatible with everything I've tried, & its plastic casing prevents it from fitting in Roland Boutiques (whereas the MD-BT01 does fit). Also, I usually use the Korg BLE midi app to connect the MD-BT01 too :smiley:

    The only problem I've had with BT midi is if I try to use BT audio at the same time. E.g. Using Bluetooth speakers & a nanokontrol studio at the same time, in which case I just use a cable for the speakers :smile:

    Wishing you all the best!

  • At home it works
    I wonder what happens with the Bluetooth stuff
    If there are 300 people (and all their gadgets) in the room ...

  • @Max23 said:
    At home it works
    I wonder what happens with the Bluetooth stuff
    If there are 300 people (and all their gadgets) in the room ...

    I've used the Nanokontrol Studio live over BT live with no issues. I went through a phase where it would lose connection after about 90 minutes of use, but that seems to have worked itself out as I've simplified my setup (and perhaps Apple has improved BTMidi?).

  • edited May 2017

    @lukesleepwalker said:

    @Max23 said:
    At home it works
    I wonder what happens with the Bluetooth stuff
    If there are 300 people (and all their gadgets) in the room ...

    I've used the Nanokontrol Studio live over BT live with no issues. I went through a phase where it would lose connection after about 90 minutes of use, but that seems to have worked itself out as I've simplified my setup (and perhaps Apple has improved BTMidi?).

    Doesn't sound to bad. B)
    But it looks like losing connection is still a thing?
    Im lusting over the korg air studio or whatever it is called for some time
    When audiobus adds midilearn and bt it's a doomsday combo B)

    First I need a beefier iPad
    Some time later this year ...

  • edited May 2017

    It has worked perfectly for me. Very reliable and I don't percieve any more latency than with a wired connection.

    @Max23 said:
    At home it works
    I wonder what happens with the Bluetooth stuff
    If there are 300 people (and all their gadgets) in the room ...

    I use an iRig Blueboard every week in a room with about 300 people. No issues.

  • @MikeyP said:

    @dermichl said:
    i found little information about Bluetooth Midi in the real wold. Do you have any experience? How is the latency? Can you really use it for playing live?

    edit it seems that Korg Nanokey Studio has low latency but Akai's LPD wireless not...

    I am using the Yamaha MD-BT01 and it works great so far. Gigged with it for the first time this past Saturday.

    I'm using a MD-BT01 too, with my EWI, seems great so far, I just use the OUT, haven't used it in a live situation yet though, just one niggle with it, I'm worried about damaging the EWI because it sticks out quite a bit. May have to get a small 90 degree midi cable to prevent this.

  • @Max23 said:

    @lukesleepwalker said:

    @Max23 said:
    At home it works
    I wonder what happens with the Bluetooth stuff
    If there are 300 people (and all their gadgets) in the room ...

    I've used the Nanokontrol Studio live over BT live with no issues. I went through a phase where it would lose connection after about 90 minutes of use, but that seems to have worked itself out as I've simplified my setup (and perhaps Apple has improved BTMidi?).

    Doesn't sound to bad. B)
    But it looks like losing connection is still a thing?

    The connection loss seems to be related to multiple BT things going at one time. When I simplify it down to just BT MIDI it works flawlessly.

  • does any fellow ipader have experience with the Akai lpd 25 wireless? or any other budget bluetooth keyboard?

  • I have a Korg microkey air 37. No noticeable latency at all.
    Gets a lot more use than my Akai mpk mini because of the convenience and extra keys

  • @knewspeak said:

    @MikeyP said:

    @dermichl said:
    i found little information about Bluetooth Midi in the real wold. Do you have any experience? How is the latency? Can you really use it for playing live?

    edit it seems that Korg Nanokey Studio has low latency but Akai's LPD wireless not...

    I am using the Yamaha MD-BT01 and it works great so far. Gigged with it for the first time this past Saturday.

    I'm using a MD-BT01 too, with my EWI, seems great so far, I just use the OUT, haven't used it in a live situation yet though, just one niggle with it, I'm worried about damaging the EWI because it sticks out quite a bit. May have to get a small 90 degree midi cable to prevent this.

    Very good to know! No latency issue in sending continuous breath control?
    Been thinking about getting something like this for my Yamaha WX-11. Don’t think the shape would be too much of an issue (the MIDI out from the WX-11 is on a flat surface).
    Otherwise, might get a used EWI-USB. If so, the UD-BT01 might make sense, but the need to plug into power is quite inconvenient.

  • @Enkerli said:

    @knewspeak said:

    @MikeyP said:

    @dermichl said:
    i found little information about Bluetooth Midi in the real wold. Do you have any experience? How is the latency? Can you really use it for playing live?

    edit it seems that Korg Nanokey Studio has low latency but Akai's LPD wireless not...

    I am using the Yamaha MD-BT01 and it works great so far. Gigged with it for the first time this past Saturday.

    I'm using a MD-BT01 too, with my EWI, seems great so far, I just use the OUT, haven't used it in a live situation yet though, just one niggle with it, I'm worried about damaging the EWI because it sticks out quite a bit. May have to get a small 90 degree midi cable to prevent this.

    Very good to know! No latency issue in sending continuous breath control?
    Been thinking about getting something like this for my Yamaha WX-11. Don’t think the shape would be too much of an issue (the MIDI out from the WX-11 is on a flat surface).
    Otherwise, might get a used EWI-USB. If so, the UD-BT01 might make sense, but the need to plug into power is quite inconvenient.

    No haven't had a problem with CC's breath, bite, slide, no or little latency, probably down to the fact it's only monophonic, even though CC's do send more data. Tried it at quite a distance, in different rooms and all still seemed fine. I did read on another forum someone tried a hex pickup via Bluetooth, it worked but when strumming at speed, it lost or hung notes, so I guess that would be pushing it's limits.

  • @knewspeak said:

    @Enkerli said:

    @knewspeak said:

    @MikeyP said:

    @dermichl said:
    i found little information about Bluetooth Midi in the real wold. Do you have any experience? How is the latency? Can you really use it for playing live?

    edit it seems that Korg Nanokey Studio has low latency but Akai's LPD wireless not...

    I am using the Yamaha MD-BT01 and it works great so far. Gigged with it for the first time this past Saturday.

    I'm using a MD-BT01 too, with my EWI, seems great so far, I just use the OUT, haven't used it in a live situation yet though, just one niggle with it, I'm worried about damaging the EWI because it sticks out quite a bit. May have to get a small 90 degree midi cable to prevent this.

    Very good to know! No latency issue in sending continuous breath control?
    Been thinking about getting something like this for my Yamaha WX-11. Don’t think the shape would be too much of an issue (the MIDI out from the WX-11 is on a flat surface).
    Otherwise, might get a used EWI-USB. If so, the UD-BT01 might make sense, but the need to plug into power is quite inconvenient.

    No haven't had a problem with CC's breath, bite, slide, no or little latency, probably down to the fact it's only monophonic, even though CC's do send more data. Tried it at quite a distance, in different rooms and all still seemed fine. I did read on another forum someone tried a hex pickup via Bluetooth, it worked but when strumming at speed, it lost or hung notes, so I guess that would be pushing it's limits.

    Just got my (first) MD-BT01. Wow. Should really have bought this earlier. Works really well with my WX-11.
    And, in practice, it really makes a difference in my setup.

    With its BT7 MIDI power pack, the WX-11 is something of a cumbersome instrument. Yes, it can be battery-powered (with six AA batteries). But, in my previous setup, there was a cable from the WX-11 to the BT7, a MIDI-USB cable adapter, and then the USB-to-Lightning adapter. Been running off the AC adapter instead of batteries. May not sound like a lot, but it was really annoying. Plus, it drained my iOS device battery pretty quickly. Could have used a CCK and an AC adapter for the iOS device, but that would mean more cables. Add headphones (or, worse, an amp) to that and, really, it makes for a rather convoluted setup.
    In fact, lent my nephew my backup WX-11, yesterday, and he immediately commented on the number of wires. This morning, he called me because there was a problem with said wiring and it was kind of hard to explain everything.

    Turns out, eliminating the USB-MIDI and USB-Lightning cables was the key. It now means that the iOS device can be completely wireless or just plugged for audio. And, you know what? Turns out that this is really freeing!

    In terms of latency, it’s really not noticeable. Of course, it’s only sending on one channel and it’s monophonic. But, in my experience, the WX-11 sends more data than a polyphonic keyboard. Yamaha wind controllers have this bad habit of constantly sending “Active Sensing”. So there are a lot more MIDI messages being sent then needed. Then, the breath control is a constant stream, which also clutters the channel. Had issues with this on the Raspberry Pi.
    But, using the MD-BT01, the WX-11 works as well with my iPad 4 or iPhone 6s Plus as it would through USB-MIDI. Also tried it with Bluetooth headphones and that’s too much latency (though latency is quite fine when using an on-screen keyboard).

    This also has an impact on my decision to get a MIDI interface. It’d still be nice to have but IDAM works well enough for me with a MacBook Pro plugged in and my WX-11 setup could work well for jamming.

    All this to say (!), this Bluetooth MIDI adapter is a gamechanger for me. Thanks for the suggestion!

  • Yup been using mine on stage since May. Probably a dozen or more shows now. Not one issue so far (touch wood).

  • use korg microkey daily. Works like a charm. No noticeable latency. Only minor issue is that some programs (lately AUM) don't immediately recognize the microkey. Getting some other app to recognize it usually "wake up" the apps that are slow to recognize bluetooth devices.

  • Use a KAWAI-Piano CN27 and it works great with bluetooth. Only on very fast tracks (f.e. Chopin Mazurka) the latency could be recognized.

  • Have any of you tried both bluetooth audio (ie Headphones, speakers, etc) AND bluetooth midi (ie keyboards)?

    How does the latency compare? I tried bluetooth audio, and it made working with music on iOS devices unusable for me. I've heard from others though that Midi over Bluetooth is much lower latency than audio over Bluetooth.

    For those who have tried and experienced both, what are your experiences? Thanks!

  • edited January 4

    Bluetooth audio is absolutely horrible. Bluetooth LE on the Roli Blocks (for example), on the other hand, is barely noticeable even when tapping in drum parts. Just make sure you have a little bit of quantisation for rhythm parts and you're golden. For melodic lines, it's not even a minor issue at this point as far as I'm concerned.

    But to reiterate, Bluetooth audio has massive latency. I hope that Apple work on this in future given that they clearly want everyone to own wireless headphones.

  • @Michael_R_Grant said:
    Bluetooth audio is absolutely horrible. Bluetooth LE on the Roli Blocks (for example), on the other hand, is barely noticeable even when tapping in drum parts. Just make sure you have a little bit of quantisation for rhythm parts and you're golden. For melodic lines, it's not even a minor issue at this point as far as I'm concerned.

    But to reiterate, Bluetooth audio has massive latency. I hope that Apple work on this in future given that they clearly want everyone to own wireless headphones.

    This was my experience as well. I had the dream of being completely wireless (partially because it's kind of cool but also less things for my kids to grab onto) and recently got a roli seaboard block. I made the mistake of trying out the seaboard with bluetooth audio at the same time and for a little bit I was concerned that I was seeing latency on the seaboard. Dropping bluetooth audio fixed it and while in the Noise app I barley notice latency. I feel like I noticed a bit more latency using other apps but I need more time to sort it out. Might be a combination of MPE and how velocity is treated outside of the noise app.

  • Cool! Thanks guys! This confirms my suspicions--Bluetooth for Audio = lots of latency; Bluetooth for Midi = usable. :smile:

  • Audio and MIDI are very different beasts. MIDI requires a lot less bandwidth and wouldn't need to be buffered like audio presumably does.

  • I’ve got an Akai LPK25 and LPD8. I don’t perceive any latency in wireless vs. wired mode but bear in mind that my fingers have severe latency of their own.

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