OT: projectors

[Deleted User]

With all the new amazing video apps available, I'm interested in putting together a little light show thing - anyone using projectors for gigs/small venues? Any recommendations? Thanks.

wigglelights

I have projection on every job I'm on, and while these aren't club gigs there are some basic things I could pass along to consider.
Brightness; the stated output of a projector is based on ANSI lumens - the averaged brightness on a 6'x8' screen.
Lensing; the ratio of distance to screen size. i.e. How far away the lens needs to be to fill a specific width of image area.
*most stock lenses are a fixed ratio, although zoom lenses are available.
*most projectors have software scaling as well, but this comes at a cost of resolution. And importantly, the physical lens will always govern the maximum image area, software cannot make the lens wider.
Placement; most projectors are designed to operate either at screen center, or at bottom (or top) edge of the image area.

In terms of doing a club gig, and the minimal time you would most likely have to set up...
consider what you are projecting on to - bringing something of your own would be good, and preferably it should be white....
Lightpath - where can the projector go so you, drum kits, whatever, are not blocking the path from the lens to the screen area. If there's any way to place the projector above the stage/audience area this will minimize this issue.
Lensing - the "stock" lens for many projectors is 1.5:1. This means that filling a 9'x16' screen requires the projector to be (depending on the panel and resolution) @ 24' away from the screen area! Look for the shortest lens you can get - 0.8:1s can be had (a 12' throw with a 9'x16').
Brightness - the more the better! Light drops off at an inverse square, and even a couple of feet of width means an image a lot dimmer. There's also the ambient light to consider from whatever is lighting you and the impact that light will have on your screen area.
And an important one - cable length! HDMI can at max support maybe 50'. And at that may only support 720 rather than 1080. May sound like a lot but once that cable is dressed it ain't much. And cheap projectors may just not see the signal at all - these are designed for a laptop or blueray sitting a couple of feet away. Considering the lightpath, image size and lens for a club gig it's something to keep in mind.
Other important features that will help in choosing a projector, in what is most likely an imperfect set up, is built in support for lens shift, image scaling and keystone correction.
AND, make sure you include the time needed! Projection is a whole art in itself, beyond the creativity of what is being projected, and adding this to a musician's responsibility in the short time one may have for set up/sound check may be more than one would like. Having a plan on what area is projected on, the lightpath/position of the projector, knowing the ins and outs of your devices and the projector ahead of time will help guarantee you'll have the visuals you want and more importantly not cause you stress before your gig.

Pretty damn long but hopefully that helps -

[Deleted User]

@wigglelights said:
I have projection on every job I'm on, and while these aren't club gigs there are some basic things I could pass along to consider.
Brightness; the stated output of a projector is based on ANSI lumens - the averaged brightness on a 6'x8' screen.
Lensing; the ratio of distance to screen size. i.e. How far away the lens needs to be to fill a specific width of image area.
*most stock lenses are a fixed ratio, although zoom lenses are available.
*most projectors have software scaling as well, but this comes at a cost of resolution. And importantly, the physical lens will always govern the maximum image area, software cannot make the lens wider.
Placement; most projectors are designed to operate either at screen center, or at bottom (or top) edge of the image area.

In terms of doing a club gig, and the minimal time you would most likely have to set up...
consider what you are projecting on to - bringing something of your own would be good, and preferably it should be white....
Lightpath - where can the projector go so you, drum kits, whatever, are not blocking the path from the lens to the screen area. If there's any way to place the projector above the stage/audience area this will minimize this issue.
Lensing - the "stock" lens for many projectors is 1.5:1. This means that filling a 9'x16' screen requires the projector to be (depending on the panel and resolution) @ 24' away from the screen area! Look for the shortest lens you can get - 0.8:1s can be had (a 12' throw with a 9'x16').
Brightness - the more the better! Light drops off at an inverse square, and even a couple of feet of width means an image a lot dimmer. There's also the ambient light to consider from whatever is lighting you and the impact that light will have on your screen area.
And an important one - cable length! HDMI can at max support maybe 50'. And at that may only support 720 rather than 1080. May sound like a lot but once that cable is dressed it ain't much. And cheap projectors may just not see the signal at all - these are designed for a laptop or blueray sitting a couple of feet away. Considering the lightpath, image size and lens for a club gig it's something to keep in mind.
Other important features that will help in choosing a projector, in what is most likely an imperfect set up, is built in support for lens shift, image scaling and keystone correction.
AND, make sure you include the time needed! Projection is a whole art in itself, beyond the creativity of what is being projected, and adding this to a musician's responsibility in the short time one may have for set up/sound check may be more than one would like. Having a plan on what area is projected on, the lightpath/position of the projector, knowing the ins and outs of your devices and the projector ahead of time will help guarantee you'll have the visuals you want and more importantly not cause you stress before your gig.

Pretty damn long but hopefully that helps -

That's very helpful thank you! I know absolutely nothing about this, so any info welcome. I've never had a budget for this sort of thing, but prices seem to have come down a lot so it could be a nice option for livening up gigs.

Processaurus

Not my advice, but when I asked a local band dude about what kind of projector was good he had similar advice- you want a couple things, that aren't typical in the cheapest home theater models: a short throw (so projector can be on stage) and horizontal keystone, as well as vertical keystone (all projectors have vertical keystone). Horizontal keystone means you can put it somewhat to the side, and correct the shape of the image to get it square again.

If the stage has the depth, rear projection looks the best, because there is no shadow from performers in front of the screen. Takes a special screen though, and extra space behind the screen.

I suspect full 1080p resolution isn't totally crucial, but brightness is.

I've seen some performers that used VJ software, and a cheap midi keyboard, to switch video clips for each song, each note on a keyboard triggered a different video clip. Cheat sheet tape on the keyboard keys. Though a dedicated touch screen app is slicker.

JohnnyGoodyear

@wigglelights said:

Great post there Mister Wiggle.

[Deleted User]

@Processaurus said:
Not my advice, but when I asked a local band dude about what kind of projector was good he had similar advice- you want a couple things, that aren't typical in the cheapest home theater models: a short throw (so projector can be on stage) and horizontal keystone, as well as vertical keystone (all projectors have vertical keystone). Horizontal keystone means you can put it somewhat to the side, and correct the shape of the image to get it square again.

If the stage has the depth, rear projection looks the best, because there is no shadow from performers in front of the screen. Takes a special screen though, and extra space behind the screen.

I suspect full 1080p resolution isn't totally crucial, but brightness is.

I've seen some performers that used VJ software, and a cheap midi keyboard, to switch video clips for each song, each note on a keyboard triggered a different video clip. Cheat sheet tape on the keyboard keys. Though a dedicated touch screen app is slicker.

There are "short throw" projectors but usually grow from 3000$ and step up (almost the professionals and last time I check over 3 years ago...) Maybe the tech is coming to home units and it's possible to find something cheaper.

http://www.projectorpoint.co.uk/projectors/short-throw

wigglelights

@JohnnyGoodyear - very kind, but I'm a jack of all trades, master of none, but able to hire those who are,,,,
@Processaurus - without doubt rear screen is the preferred choice. And based on lensing and screen size the throw distance is the same as front - for a club that's a tremendous amount of backstage to expect.
@Dubbylabby - the Barco and Christi short throw lenses we use are close to 9k, not counting the projector.

That said, and trying to be in reach using "lunchbox" projectors -
I'd think about using 2-3 image surfaces of relatively small size (circles or squares of gatorboard, 4'x4', 6'x6' maybe) that could be suspended from the backdrop of the venue. Then get the same number of "cheap" projectors and mount on stands (the smaller screen needing a shorter throw), then an HDMI DA to split the signal...
Trying to cover a whole backdrop with one projector in one shot is where the challenge comes in. I know it's because "I do this for a living", but I hate seeing the YouTube vids of bands in small clubs with the projection on the players and shadows on the screens...
going to a smaller/modular approach could get one into a reliable show/flexible package/lower stress event.
I hate to to perhaps sound discouraging, but as with many aspects of creating a show there's a lot involved technically - no shortcuts, right? Simple/straight forward, yes.... as long there's a commitment to time making it ready before load in, it should be doable (just like having one's rig ready), without it probably a rough ride, something I'd not want @MonzoPro or any one else to have a part of their show day!

[Deleted User]

@wigglelights thanks again for the info, very useful.

Sounds like it's a serious investment to have a decent setup, maybe I'll just buy a cheapo thing for amusement at home!

[Deleted User]

@Processaurus said:
Not my advice, but when I asked a local band dude about what kind of projector was good he had similar advice- you want a couple things, that aren't typical in the cheapest home theater models: a short throw (so projector can be on stage) and horizontal keystone, as well as vertical keystone (all projectors have vertical keystone). Horizontal keystone means you can put it somewhat to the side, and correct the shape of the image to get it square again.

If the stage has the depth, rear projection looks the best, because there is no shadow from performers in front of the screen. Takes a special screen though, and extra space behind the screen.

I suspect full 1080p resolution isn't totally crucial, but brightness is.

I've seen some performers that used VJ software, and a cheap midi keyboard, to switch video clips for each song, each note on a keyboard triggered a different video clip. Cheat sheet tape on the keyboard keys. Though a dedicated touch screen app is slicker.

Thanks - more useful tips!

johnfromberkeley

I have been looking at Benq projectors for pro-am stuff.

[Deleted User]

@johnfromberkeley said:
I have been looking at Benq projectors for pro-am stuff.

They look good, sensible prices too.

[Deleted User]

Well @wigglelights small venues for my pov atomatically avoid mapping and complex setups... but I think lightning show is a must for any 20th century music band so thanks for share your knowledge

Said that maybe a multi screen system with mac mini and matrox triple head could be another solution for these kind of "table lightshow" and then a short throw overhead/led screen for the behind scene.

[Deleted User]

@Dubbylabby said:
Well @wigglelights small venues for my pov atomatically avoid mapping and complex setups... but I think lightning show is a must for any 20th century music band

My thoughts exactly. I'm toying with the idea of doing small support gigs for the band I was in, but it'll be pretty dull visually for the audience (an old man crouched over a laptop and iPad) so a few mad movies should liven things up, and I can create them to match the audio.

I don't really have any money for this though, so cheap and cheerful is the name of the game.

[Deleted User]

Well then I will go the punk route: old hardware (once again)

Old tv or whatever projector, iPad with vidibox-like app and if you want to trigger from midi control (nanokontrol/nanopad) then add an appletv3 for airplay... then put the iPad/nanopad over a ikea brada (used downside to let people see your action) and finally let you grow the beard

http://www.ikea.com/us/en/images/products/brada-laptop-support-black__0256648_PE400741_S4.JPG

Edit: I forgot to add a plug network extender to connect the ipad and the appletv.