Is there a step sequencer that allows for step based sub sequences?

Will

Not sure the title is the right way to describe what I'm looking for but that's all I got. I'd like to be able to set a given step in a step sequencer to trigger different notes on each cycle of the sequence.

For example, a 4 note sequence could look like:

A->B->C->D

or one of the steps could contain variable steps like:

A->B-> {C | E | G} ->D

When that sequence is played three times, it would sound/look like:

A->B->C->D->A->B->E->D->A->B->G->D

Preferably, one of the sub-step options would be a rest. Then a sequence:

A->B-> {C | rest} ->D would output like:

A->B->C->D->A->B->rest->D

Or "trigger this note every other time".

Optimally, the sub-sequence of notes could output in the order entered or random or back and forth or... same sort of options a normal step sequencer would have.

wellingtonCres

on mac, numerology by five12
on ios, the next update of midisequencer by anthony saunders
i bet you could do this with zMors modular

Will

I had a strong feeling the answer lied with @midiSequencer. Cheers @wellingtonCres

Processaurus

You can do something like that with midisteps (and probably others) in a backwards kind of way, if you use two tracks of sequencing, to the same output, with rests where the other track plays, something like:
Track one:
A B - D

And track two:

• • C - - - E - - - G -

The cool thing is you could have a few pattern choices, for each track, and mix and match them.

u0421793

It's almost as if there's the original sequence on one track,
and on a parallel track there's
"nope; nope; transpose if you like; nope",
and on a third track, there's x=whatever you like going on that has
x; x; C; x; x; x; E; x; x; x; G; x; x; x; x; x
And then somewhere, also, there's
gate; gate; gate; gate; gate; gate; gate; gate; gate; gate; gate; gate; gate; gate; nothing; gate

The third track transposes the first track, but only when the second track allows it, and only triggers a note when the gate track says so.

yowza

I don't have time to read this carefully right now but @midisequencer is definitely getting close to this type of behavior and Tony keeps adding more features all the time. I've been beta testing and you can have 6 different parallel sequences (6 MidiSequencers at the same time) up to 64 steps and each sequence has 4 parallel parts (A-D) that can each have different starting and ending points. There is going to be a way to split the parts out and play them sequentially rather than parallel. This may already be in the latest build but I haven't had time to dig in very deep yet.

Will

@Processaurus said:
You can do something like that with midisteps (and probably others) in a backwards kind of way, if you use two tracks of sequencing, to the same output, with rests where the other track plays, something like:
Track one:
A B - D

And track two:

• • C - - - E - - - G -

The cool thing is you could have a few pattern choices, for each track, and mix and match them.

Clever work around, thank you. Should work pretty well for shorter sequences anyway. It sort of locks you in on the timing though and part of the inspiration is midiSteps trig mode. Would be aces if midiSteps allowed a 'chord step' to be either a regular chord or a 'step through these notes please' type step.

Will

@u0421793 said:
It's almost as if there's the original sequence on one track,
and on a parallel track there's
"nope; nope; transpose if you like; nope",
and on a third track, there's x=whatever you like going on that has
x; x; C; x; x; x; E; x; x; x; G; x; x; x; x; x
And then somewhere, also, there's
gate; gate; gate; gate; gate; gate; gate; gate; gate; gate; gate; gate; gate; gate; nothing; gate

The third track transposes the first track, but only when the second track allows it, and only triggers a note when the gate track says so.

Took me a while to process this but yes, this is definitely a path to what I'm looking for. Short of actually developing it in something like PD or possibly Lemur, I don't know of a way to actually try this.

Part of the idea behind this is experimental (or rather, to enable easy experimentation of a specific type). The other part of it is to extend the musical utility of short sequences without requiring a full-on song mode, particularly when track count and track lengths are limited. If you were to enter (4) four note chords into a 4 step sequence, you could get a 16 chord progression out of it. Or you could enter the chords to Lean on Me or Let it me or some other old song that starts with the letter L and hear what they sound like sequenced back to you as root, then third, then fifth... at 16x time.

loopseque's sequencer has the ability to set a step to 'play every other revolution' but that's the closest I've seen to this. Plenty of sequencers have probability which can keep a short sequence from being too repetitive but it's not the same idea and is really only an A/B affair. Seems to me that if a sequencer were to be approached (created) in this way—where each step was potentially a sequence—it would also open up things like ratcheting (setting the clock division of the sub-sequence) and granular step offsets (the one note in the parent sequence could start at any of 1-16 divisions of the master clock's step time). It could also do things like auto-arpeggiate based on the notes entered into the main sequence (cut the master clock to 1/8 and tap a button like "set all sub-steps to arp in a minor blues scale").

Will

@wellingtonCres said:
on mac, numerology by five12

I seem to look at numerology 2-3 times a year and hover on the buy button. You got me there again. Does what I'm after and then some. And then some more. I've never really given it a go because... computers at night.

For those who haven't seen it, this is what midi step sequencer pr0n looks like: http://www.five12.com/hq/N4

u0421793

I'm just having a cursory look at Cream to see if this can happen there, I'll look a bit more later if I get time.

Wally

Well ,@syrupcore's question is interesting ,

on looking into this I realise the problem is wanting to change the 3rd step .
So if it were the FIRST step, then I've just done this on beta MidiSequencer Racks easily ,
& with minimal elements of 4 steps for Rack 1 & 3 Steps for Rack 2 , which is timed x1/4 ,
see photo .
So Rack 1 mute, A,B,C , Rack2 C,E,G x1/4 = CABC,EABC,GABC,CABC
& if @syrupcore wants variety he could change Rack2 playdirection to Rndm , Brownian or other jump modes .

I suspect this should be also possible with Cream , & others that allow x 1/4 rates across different tracks
.

The major problem is by wanting any other step but the first to change requires adding additional timing steps which seems to break the minimalist elements of the above scenario , to the point that by adding the necessary Rack2 muted steps, we end up needing to program the whole sequence of 12 steps in its entirety .

So it isnt currently possible , other than maybe " twisting the sequence " to have the changing note on the First step , write the orhers accordingly , record 2 bars & cut out the correct sequence thats in there somewhere , if that makes sense .

I know MidiSequencer Racks takes inspiration from Numerology & offers some of its functionality , but its intertrack modulation doesnt yet allow modulation of individual steps in the way Numerology would do this . I will raise this with @midiSequencer if he isnt already aware from @Yowza or this thread .
There is an " Actions " module yet to be implemented which may solve this , or maybe individual step modulation can be added .

I would recommend @syrupcore holds off buying Numerology until we see what MidiSequencer Racks ends up capable of , not just to save him money , but from my experience of testing Numerology I found its interface so very disappoining , so mouse driven with very small fader movements ..
I realised after years of touch control that the mouse is now a hindrance .
Hence my dedication to betatesting MidiSequencer Racks , I want this to replace my need of Numerology ( & Cirklon , etc)

wellingtonCres

if you go with numerology be sure to pick up a dirt cheap launchpad, almost mandatory

Wally

BTW With Cream it can be done as originally requested with changing 3rd step within 1 Track , by using the Transpose Lane , varying each 3rd step as wanted . Pauses can also be added .

edit . This is effectively using the full => twelve steps though , so you are back to " may as well just program the sequence to begin with " scenario.

Wally

Okay , found a sub section method for Cream, if you're ok with Random 3rd step change !

set chordmemory slot 1 , or play CEG .
Order Lane set to four steps LO, LO, RND, LO .
Transpose set to four steps -3 , -1 , 0 , +2 .
Ironically , the Transpose lane is playing the A,B, & D fixed sequence , based on LO = C note.
So the 3rd Random step is Randomising the notes in chord memory , i.e C,E,G

pretty pleased with myself for sussing this one . photos to follow .

Wally

Gotcha ... MidiSequencer Racks CAN do this , now !

I avoided using Track modulation to Transpose in earlier example ,
because it would transpose entire sequence

But I realised I hadnt fully explained here , or explored that there are now up to 4 subsections per Rack ...i.e @syrupcores original question.

So by separating the ABD fixed notes in section A Rack 1 ABmuteD ,
from mute,mute,C,mute in Section B of Rack 1 ,
we can now Transpose Section B with Rack 2 set to StepValues , & x1/4 speed .
The transpose affects the whole section B , but because the other steps are muted here its not a problem . Yay !

edit so just for further clarification , this is working because 2 Sections A & B are playing concurrently on Rack 1 , whilst Rack 2 transposes Section B at 1/4 speed .

Up to 4 sections ABCD each with independent play modes/timings ,
of up to 64 Steps of Split or Overlapping Steps are possible per Rack &,
can be modulated by other Racks .

midiSequencer

I think there is an even easier way - you can do this with midi fx in midiSequencer - it's called the Rotator.
The idea of rotator was to play a different note every time you play the step - in a loop.
You can define up to 4 variations before it loops. You can even define the velocity too and a 2nd note, as well as direct these notes to a different midi channel.
You could setup one step only to have this fx (e.g. 3rd if you want the C in A->B-C->D to vary) - remember in midiSequencer you can disable/enable fx per step.
There is even a transposition (but can't remember what this does).
As it is fx, it works on playing midiSequencer via a keyboard - which plays step 1 with every note on - so you can apply fx too (ostinato for added note or echo for ping pong effects).

All of this will be on the rack version too (you get all of midiSequencers IAP included) but this time you can define them per sequence (there could be 6).

Will

Awesome work! Thank you @wally. I will give it a shot.

Will

Oh man, posted at the same time. Tony to the rescue. Thank you!

Wally

@midiSequencer Thanks for showing up , so that's what The Rotator does ..
(When I mentioned the FX manual needed finishing , I was really saying I hadn't really tested all the FX as I didn't understand many of them ..)
I still wonder if per step modulation might be possible , @midiSequencer ?

Still , a useful question posed by @syrupcore has helped me uncover some new workflows for my 2 favourite apps .

Will

Finally had a chance to give this a go. Think I found a bug or a I've missed a setting. If make a four step sequence and turn off FX for all steps except for one, it works... until I go to edit the FX. At that point, it seems to turn on the FX for all steps again.

Wally

@syrupcore ^^^ yes , I can confirm similar behaviour here with MidiSequencer original .
All steps keep getting repopulated with FX .
Doesnt happen with beta Racks version if that's any consolation .
Also, when functioning, it plays the original note as well as the rotated so there is an unwanted harmony .
I will mention this to @midiSequencer if he doesnt see this here .

JohnnyGoodyear

You guys though.

u0421793

Funny there's more iOS modular synths than modular sequencers.

Will

Cheers @wally. Yes, working perfectly in the rack version.

@u0421793 Considering the ratio of modular synths to modular sequencers in hardwarelandia, seems about right.

u0421793

@syrupcore said:
Cheers @wally. Yes, working perfectly in the rack version.

@u0421793 Considering the ratio of modular synths to modular sequencers in hardwarelandia, seems about right.

Although, 2) there should be more hardware modular sequencers, it's entirely possible (I should draw up a few designs, sequencers are about the easiest hardware to design and build - a 555 and a 4017 and bunch of pots and leds is really all it takes) and a] that shouldn't be the constraining aspect, after all, in software, nobody can hear you scream anything is possible except skiing through a revolving door.