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Using impaktor with a drum pad, and other neat percussions setups
Hi , I’m looking to get a sweet percussion set up and am considering getting a drum pad (Alesis samplepad 4) and using it with impaktor. There’s a few things I dont understand about it, could anybody offer some advice?
01... What would be different about using a drum pad with Impaktor as opposed to playing it on a table? As I understand, having the drum pad would allow me to
A) play the sounds of impaktor thru speakers instead of headphones, because there wouldn't be a feedback issue when the drum pad is plugged in with an audio cable (instead of using a air based microphone like in the iOS device)
B ) play Impaktor with sounds generated by the drum pad and midi sounds from other software. Is this true?
02.... I plan to have the drum pad connected (w/ both usb for midi and audio cable) to an interface which is connected to my Mac (running logic ) so that I could have it play MIDI sounds of different drums from logic and record the sounds in logic.
Would this be possible? Or does the interface need to be connected directly to the iOS device that has Impaktor on it? I’m imagining that I could somehow use an app like Studiomux to send the audio signal from the drum pad to the iOS device with Impaktor and back to Logic. But I’m not sure if this makes sense, or if there would be latency that would mess things up.
03... Finally, as I understand, the way that Impaktor works means that it would only allow one sound at a time. So, even though the drum pad had 4 different pads, they’d all just be able to play the same sound when processed thru Impaktor? Is this correct? It would be great if they could play all 4 different sounds processed in Impaktor, but thats not possible now, is it?
004... Is there any other relevant information/apps/technique to think about to really improve the percussion set up? I'd heard that the \ Impaktor 2 is going to be release at some point, and had also done research into some things like the FreeDrums. I'm not attached to this idea of using the drum pad w/ impaktor so am open to whatever ideas, just looking to make a fun percussion set up that provides alot of musical options and fun playing times.
Thanks!
Dan
Comments
Hi,
if you route your drumpad audio into impaktor it will take it as "sound" like you play over table but with the advantages of controlled noise (ambience and so) and dissavantages of closed sounds and dynamics. It could be interesting but bit limiting maybe... I used a spanish cajon (cajon = box; cojon = ball. Thanks) and it trows interesting sounds.
First of all you should differentiate midi from audio. If your drumpad is a class compliance midi and/or audio device you could use it with your iOS apps.
If midi you could trigger sounds with the proper app.
If audio you could use it instead internal mic and headphones to gain control over impaktor live input.
At this point...
1) with midi it could trigger sounds in the proper app (impaktor seems no midi at all) or even fx control attaching it to midi enabled fx app and routing impaktor (or whatever you want) through AudioBus.
A) only if your drumpad is core audio class compliance device and you use it as soundcard for iOS. If not the audio will come from headphones and recorded into impaktor with the internal mic as usual.
If you plain to use midi aside maybe then you could trigger some drum app and mix the sounds with the impaktor output (AudioBus again could be useful or even AUM) avoiding logic and audiomux etc. It could be possible do the "go and back" but maybe latency will make it useless. It's a matter of trying...
2) Connected to... interface? Let's clear this first. Usb to your interface means something like audioconnecivity or just usb to mac and audio to interface? At last if it means full connected to your mac you will need another way to share midi and audio to iOS (like audiomux, midimux, studiomux) if you want to work with impaktor, right. About sense and latency, try and check...
3) Impaktor works with audio feed. Feed audio into it and it will be processed. It doesn't know if you trow a can or table... or human beatbox! Said that different sounds will be recognized as different areas of your "surface" (think using it placing the iPad near a real drum instrument). The selection of your "samples" and equalization will bring you different responses...
4) It will depend on your approach. For audio I will advice you use some fx and try to control them over midi with velocity value from the pads (maybe midiflow app could send in addition to midi notes command an attached midi CC which could be linked into midi enabled fx app) giving you the chance to play with delay feedback or time with the strenght in your hits (just an idea)
Another different approach could be use vidibox videosampler and trigger some visuals from your drumpad. Sky is the limit
Hope it helps, mate.
David
I've used a piezo mic mounted in a tin can hooked up to my irig HD with impaktor and that can be quite a wild and wooly adventure. In a good way. Just keep your headphones or monitors turned down.
I also have plugged a drum pad into an older iRig2. That irig is superior to the HD for the drum pad because it has a volume-in control that allows me to get the signal hot enough to make impaktor responsive and expressive.
Impaktor is all about getting that human feel that can be elusive with midi on a grid.
Hopefully @supadom will come by with more tips.
But the HD has a gain control too. At least mine does...
Duh. Should have had the coffee before posting...
I have found that the iRig2 works better with Impaktor because it connects through the headphone jack rather than go through A/D converters of the iRig HD.
Was just looking at practice pads to use with impaktor. this would work for me yes?
Hope I'm not derailing anything.
The way I'm doing it:
I bought a tuning clip which is basically a piezo and plugged in my soundcard (iconnectivity 4+) to the iphone or ipad. All I did was remove the hipass filter setting in impaktor. Works great on a table and using multirod types of sticks. Extremely sensible also, you can play with your fingers if you want depending on the impakor settings.
I guess you could probably do the same with an irig device. Anything that can amplify the signal from the piezo to the iphone/ipad.
Interesting, Can you tell us more? Does it have a quarter-inch output ?
I use a method that I was hipped to by someone on here (sorry, but I forget who)
I place a flat piezo between the pages of a book, run it into my iPad with HD, and bang on the book. Good results and no feedback even with no headphones.
I got idea from: https://cycling74.com/practical-max/practical-max-1/#.WEkbKbXEjYU
Thanks for all of the responses everybody, lots of interestijg ideas!
I always get a bit confused about these definitions, but i'm pretty sure the Alesis samplepad 4 is both class compliant midi and an audio device. So it could trigger midi sounds from software or produce its own sounds, and it has both ports for a `1/8" audio cable and usb
So you mean using the midi signals for the device for triggering the sounds in another app (and possibly adding fx in another app) **and then ** routing the audio created by those apps into impaktor thru AB? so you have a midi generated audio sound that is being processed in impaktor?
I'm not totally sure what a soundcard is. Does that mean to plug it into the ios device via my audio interface or something like that?
what do you mean by disadvantages of closed sounds and dynamics? as i understand it would mainly function by just blocking out external noise caught by the mic
Ok i might have to just try ordering it to try and see if it works. What to you mean by "use midi aside"? Will i have to choose whether the drumpad is acting as an audio device or a midi device at any particular time?
Sorry for not explaining that clearly- i have a scarlett 18i20 connected to mac via usb , and also a usb hub connected to mac via usb. So i figure that it will work by plugging samplepad via 1/4' cord into the line input of the audio interface, and also plugging the usb into the usb hub connected to the mac. It would be my first time owning a drumpad, so im not sure if i'm missing something in the approach.
Yes, so the plan was to have the audio sent to the mac from the samplepad OR to have a midi signal sent to the Mac and routed into Logic and have a sound produce by logic AND THEN have it routed to the Ipad (via studiomux) running Impaktor to have it processed AND THEN send it back to logic (via studiomux) to record it.
Thanks for clearing that up
Awesome , hadnt heard of the vidibox before, will be checking it out in detail. I'll try adding fx too, though at the moment controlling them w velocity value from the pads and using midi flow for attaching midi CC are seeming to be over my head of MIDI knowledge lol
Thanks David for taking the time to provide so many ideas and details!
How does the experience of using the piezo mic compare to using the drumpad? I'm new to the idea of piezo mics, but it piezo mic seems like a less expensive solution that drumpad, though it would have to be DIY as i understnd.
Would that human feeling be elusive when using a drum pad? i thought the idea of the drumpad was to have it have sensitivity and all built in so that it feels more real like acoustic drum...
You mean you connect the drum pad to the interface through the headphone jack instead of through the audio line input jack? not sure what A/D converters are
not derailing it all, what do you mean by using practice pads with impaktor? like using e- drumpads like the alesis i talked about? or ones that dont have midi/audio produced?
Cool thanks.
1. why do you use multirod sticks? had never heard of those before
2. what kinds of impaktor settings would you change for using fingers/sticks/hands/etc?
How do you run the piezo to the ipad? Sorry maybe its just me being ignorant of how piezos work- would it be soldered on a 1/8" wire that is connected to interface connected to ipad?
you can buy piezzos with a 1/4 inch jack already soldered on the bay for about $3 .
stick em onto anything..tupperware is good..run a lead into interface..Impaktor heaven..a drum pad from e drum kit is the same story..they are ideal...
The difference between a diy piezo and a drum trigger piezo is the problem with retriggering. You can mess around with different objects but be mindful that the more resonant the object, the more likely it is to retrigger (this is why probably burying a piezo in a book works well). The retriggering doesn't only come from the live speakers in the room but also from you holding your object, accidental knocks etc. I also find that rubbery surface is similar to a djembe skin which I personally find nicer to play with hands.
Just my 5p
Edit: contrary to popular belief drum pads don't cost that much and provide much more pro/practical solution. You can find a mono trigger pad on ebay for around $15
@dan151
Soundcard aka Audio Interface (but it could have midi too and nowadays these aren't usb boxes with the soundcard inside. Sorry it's from my so many years dealing with computers... xD)
About inter-app (or AudioBus in this case) audio routing, yes. You could do what you figured for Logic (go and back signaling) between an enabled midi triggerable app (output to AudioBus into Impaktor or fx... or even more complex routing even fx after impaktor...)
About sound dynamic avantages/disavantages take the impaktor app over a table and just drum the table. It will take all the surface as big snare (or tac) and adjusting Treshold you can apply infinite levels (since audio is not limited to 127 velocity levels or 14000 of sysex in the case your drumpad could send them) but it also adds noise and feedback into the equation. That's what I said "matter of point of view" (noise is fun :V )
Working midi aside means (in my head sorry) using midi message with one app and audio input from your audio interface (attached to ipad of course) to mix the booth signals (using AudioBus or AUM mixer) and morphing them. It could be weird or spaceship noise
I was pointing there is no necessity to add latency with audiomux and logic instead you have something in logic that you can achieve with some ipad app itself (it will be more portable setup too)
So as example for clearing the most as I can...
You attach the drumpad to ipad (CCK3 usb) and use it as audio&midi interface. Then you have the focusrite attached to the mac so if you want to share audio it will need regular cables between them. (You could add studiomux in the middle by wifi? I'm not sure but I think it's messy...)
Then in the ipad becomes somekind of drum synth... Run an drum app and trigger it with the pad (setting the midi channel and so) then route the output of the app to the input of Impaktor. Make another bus to fit fx after that (or use AUM with fx insert for each blabla. This require a bit more explanation/research but first let's wonder what you want
.
Then (if you use AUM) use midiflow to control midi parameters (volume, delay feedback, whatever...) from the pads too (maybe you should start for midiflow and then slice/duplicate midi signals but I explain in this side to make it easy to understand)
Seems complex because it is but the reward could worth the effort...
So finally (and once again) start trying (step by step) and keep posting doubts. The Audiob.us community is very alive and helpful as you can see and all of us are learning in the process so thanks to you for becoming part.
Very cool, I found one on eBay for $10, can't wait to try it out.
Also available at Amazon:
Planet Waves Piezo Tuning Clip https://www.amazon.com/dp/B004O0D18K/ref=cm_sw_r_tai_wUBuybHXE8QZQ
@Htmx That's the one I got. Pretty good!
@dan151 Sorry for the late reply. In the impaktor settings, you just remove the high-cut filter cuz it takes some of the sensitivity off. I'm using multirod types of sticks cuz there are less brutal. Depends on the surface really. I put up the tuning clip on a glass table and with the multi-rods, it's pretty good. You can also play with your hands, fingers. Works A1.
I haven't tried the irig to amplify but something that small with an iphone and the tuning clip, you get a pretty portable setup. In my case like I said, I use the iconnectivity and it works great.
I found the best results to be had from using a piezo mic dipped in plastic and then connected to the iPad via a passive circuit to prevent bleed back from the headphone jack output. The mic plugs into the passive circuit, the circuit plugs into the headphone jack, and the headphones plug into the circuit. I can easily adjust the threshold of sound I want to input to the iPad by adjusting the variable resistor in the passive circuit. I don't need to amplify the piezo mic signal or use an additional power source to play or monitor.
Piezo mics are quite sensitive to contact vibrations but not those via the air like a conventional microphone. I don't even have to hit the piezo mic directly and certainly have a wider dynamic range than that provided by MIDI. My lightening port is free for other IO uses. I can of course run the same mic through a USB interface as well but not really needed for use with Impaktor.
As with real analog drums the physical characteristics (e.g. wood, metal, plastic, fingers) of the "drum stick" I use to play the piezo mic with as well as the surface it is on will all contribute to the tonal quality of the audio sent into Impaktor. To get an idea of the sensitivity of the mic, I can drag the mic across the texture of my clothing and it will be translated into an audio signal.
Here's a commercial version:
Awesome! I will, thanks
https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q="trigger+pad"&tbs=vw:g,ss:44,p_ord:p&tbm=shop
2.2. And the difference b/w a trigger pad like this and the Alesis sample pad I linked to earlier- that would be that trigger pads don’t have a USB port or a drum brain, which means that they couldn’t send/recieve midi signals with ios/Mac software or produce their own sounds (but that they could be connected to a drum brain with a USB port and added to an existing e-drum set to create sounds from the drum brain or ios/Mac software with midi). So trigger pads are basically rubber pads that have something like a piezo mic built into them (but won’t retrigger bc the rubber isn’t very resonant)? Is this correct?
Wow thats a lot of interesting ideas and info! First off thanks for the kind welcome- I’m glad to be part of the AB forums, it had been a very good place for me to read for a while and starting to post now has made it even more helpful to learn from so many helpful people. I’ll definitely continue coming around here.
Secondly- I’m going to take some time to try this stuff out- everything you said makes sense now, thanks for clearing it up and explaining further, I’m excited to experiment with this stuff and will post as I progess
All good and thanks for your answers, ill play around with those ideas. The Piezo tuning clip looks awesome btw! Not sure what you means by Works A1?
Looks cool! a couple questions:
2.2. Why is it dipped in plastic? to dampen the sound?
3.3. I’m interested in the idea of plugging it straight into the headphone jack and leaving the lightning port free- that way I could connect straight to the Mac and not have to worry about latency issues with audiomux. Is this idea dependent on having the passive circuit? Is this possible to do with the other piezo mic solutions people described earlier by adding in a passive circuit that has a microphone jack?
''
Thanks again everybody!
@dan151 what I meant was a single trigger one, since impaktor only responds to a mono in.
Regarding the piezos you're looking at. If you want to want to go that route be mindful not to choose a resonant object otherwise it will pick up the low frequencies from the speaker and retrigger. You've been warned.
Edit: the dual trigger pad will work just as well but they tend to be more expensive.
Here's 2 videos I've made using different triggers. The first one using a metal container as the second with an epad.
You can look on sites like Amazon or eBay for commercial piezo mics and they are very inexpensive. I think it's a very easy DIY project as all you have to do is solder the two wires from the piezo mic to your jack of choice and then dip them into some plasti dip. The plastic makes the mic more durable as well as water proof without compromising the sensitivity of the mic significantly. The bare piezo mics can be broken if you wack them too hard.
FYI the piezo is a crystal that gives off electrical signals in response to vibrations. The difference between a piezo speaker and mic is whether or not you're sending an electrical signal to the piezo (speaker) or receiving the electrical signal from it (mic).
If Impaktor ever became an AU effect, you could connect several piezo mics to a USB audio interface and each mic could be routed to a different instance of Impaktor so you'd have a little analog/synth drum setup where each mic was assigned to a different percussion instrument of your drum kit. Similar fun could be had with an app like VoxSyn.
The passive circuit for getting the input into your headphone jack is a little more complex but not too bad. You can get the parts for about $10 and the variable resistor in the circuit makes it better than commercial products like the original iRig because it can virtually eliminate any noise from your input signal. It can be used to get signal from any device which has an analog headphone jack output. I've used it for electric guitars, CD players, hardware synths, and the piezo mic.
I've included a PDF of the dPLUG circuit I've used. An Altoid tin works well for housing the circuit. The mic signal will only be mono.
If you want to buy a commercial version of a passive circuit, look up the original iRig. Even though it's not as high a quality signal, you can adjust the mic input settings in Impaktor to eliminate noise. You can't just plug in a stereo or mono jack into the headphone jack as iOS devices have three different wires: left, right, and mic. There can also be issues surrounding the differences between the strength of the input signal and what the iOS device mic input was built for which the passive circuit deals with as well.
Also here I'm playing alongside the full drum kit in a small space with no retriggering.
Diffent instance? How?
For example you could have 5 audio tracks in AUM or Cubasis, each track corresponds to one of the percussive instruments in your kit. Have a single output from your USB audio interface connected to a piezo mic as the input for each track and have an instance of the hypothetical Impaktor AU app in the effect slot. You can then play the piezo mics as if they were an electronic drum kit only on a desktop sized space. The quality of the tracks will of course depend upon the skill with which you can play the mics as there will be no MIDI type quantization going on. Since all of the instruments in the kit are on seperate tracks, you could choose to play along to other parts of the kit you've recorded previously.
When you save the project, AUM or Cubasis will remember the setups in each of the tracks. You will need to note the output settings on your USB audio interface to replicate the kit as well as what surface and objects you used to create the vibrations picked up by the mics.
It could definitely be an inexpensive mobile DIY electronic drum kit but without any MIDI.
Alternatively if you didn't want to replicate the live drumming experience, you could replace the mic inputs with other audio sources to trigger the drums in the hypothetical Impaktor AU.
I think I get your idea but a snapshot of AUM will be helpful...
Edit: ok I miss the "if" but since impaktor isn't AU or AB output it makes me think nowadays is just "wondering" meanwhile I was focusing on actual solutions.
Anyone knows if the impaktor dev is going to update the app with these (and Link)?
He's planing to but there isn't enough interest from the users so no ETA whatsoever. I am apparently the poster boy for impaktor and one of the very few who ask about updates. This is how bad it's got
Well count me in. I'm hereby asking for an update.
Me too, love Impaktor, would love an update, and Link would be fantastic. Inspired by this thread.
Me three!
Hey thanks @supadom. Love those. Inspired to get me something to play with impaktor.
Just sent an update request for multiple, selectable inputs, Au and Link via website
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