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Consciousness could be a side effect of 'entropy', say researchers

"Specifically, they were looking at synchronisation of neurons - whether neurons were oscillating in phase with each other - to figure out whether brain cells were linked or not. "

http://www.sciencealert.com/consciousness-could-be-a-result-of-entropy-say-researchers

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Comments

  • edited October 2016

    we know nearly nothing about our brain
    and how things work together
    we also don't understand how consciousness is created

    as far as we understand things consciousness could be a result of my grandma cocking chocolate pudding in the kitchen ... ;)

    understanding alone how consciousness creates "now" really is a trip
    we need much more fundamental research to begin to understand things

    it also may not be the cleverest thing to look at pathologic things to understand what happens in "healthy" brains. ;)
    its a study with 9(!) ppl and 7 were epileptic
    to put things into perspective ...

  • Until you know The Holy Spirit, you know nothing.

  • edited October 2016

    Good article - I like the notion of complexity being somewhere between the known and unknown. One of my favorite theorists, Jacques Derrida - would call this "aporias" the wellspring of the literary. Every field out there is being informed by these same issues - econometrics, linguistics, cybersecurity, even hearing - I was recently studying the stereocilia on the organ of Corti in the inner-ear - truly amazing the transduction of sound waves to neurons that takes place there, sensitive to changes of 10 microns or less - that's a hell of a synthesizer - we just don't have the processing power to account for these "combinatorial explosions"

    Here's a good "ensemble" type problem to solve:

    Let's say you have a computer network - the network is prone to being exploited by 100 different vulnerabilities. Each of the 100 vulnerabilities has a 1% chance of being exploited: What is the probability that your network will be exploited?

  • edited October 2016

    @Ocsprey said:
    I was recently studying the stereocilia on the organ of Corti in the inner-ear - truly amazing the transduction of sound waves to neurons that takes place there, sensitive to changes of 10 microns or less

    the real magic, as you know, happens later
    we really don't know what is going on except for "inside the weather is beautiful"
    the fascinating thing is that the brain is able to make new connections as a part of learning or other processes
    so its a self mutating apparatus

  • @lala said:

    @Ocsprey said:
    I was recently studying the stereocilia on the organ of Corti in the inner-ear - truly amazing the transduction of sound waves to neurons that takes place there, sensitive to changes of 10 microns or less

    the real magic, as you know, happens later
    we really don't know what is going on except for "inside the weather is beautiful"

    Right - and the irony of utilizing the same instrument to figure this out, whilst the instrument "knows" perfectly well what it's doing...but at least now I can tell everyone that I constantly lose my keys in order to maximize entropy, chaos and shiny stuff, happy happy joy joy

  • @lala said:

    Is this you?

  • edited October 2016

    lol, I wish
    no I am just an interested fool
    damned you ppl, I managed 2 days without cigarettes
    got to buy some now, I really need a smoke now

    ah, I am much more relaxed now
    but I have some human medicine diplomas so I understand the basics ...

  • Hmmm. Boffins you lot. But 'The Human Medicine Diplomas', not a bad name for a bad band....

  • edited October 2016

    @JohnnyGoodyear said:
    Hmmm. Boffins you lot. But 'The Human Medicine Diplomas', not a bad name for a bad band....

    we life in a very lucky age,
    we've got access to all kinds of info if we want to have it
    no matter how obscure your interest is

  • I'm enjoying how this thread is evolving. I kind of expected it would be ignored and buried within a couple hours. Glad I was wrong. :)

  • I didn't know what a boffin was, so I looked it up in the OED - etymology of egg-head, so yeah, you win this time @JohnnyGoodyear !

  • edited October 2016

    Damn, I thought I was on the wrong forum for a minute!

  • edited October 2016

    @Ocsprey said:
    I didn't know what a boffin was, so I looked it up in the OED - etymology of egg-head, so yeah, you win this time @JohnnyGoodyear !

    if you are on a mac you can activate 3 finger touch to get look this up in loaded lexica
    if you mark a word on iOS it does the same ...
    i love this
    ^^ i had to look it up too

  • @lala said:
    we've got access to all kinds of info if we want to have it

    Much of which is hard to class as impirical. Mostly, it comes down to whose truth we want to believe. For example, history being written by the victors often paints a less than honest picture of what really happened.

  • edited October 2016

    Conscious awareness(or more like just awareness) of external world is created from information first being processed by some of the structures of midbrain, then combining that information with information processed by areas in sensory areas of the cortex. This combining of information also happens in midbrains. This is the basic thing that all animals have. But when it comes to consciousness as an executive functioning(what humans, and only a few other animals do), well thats just an illusion created in the prefrontal cortex when it starts to influence other areas of the brains. Conscious awareness of self/inner workings of the mind/imagination, comes from a switch in the frontal cortex that is able to focus the stream of action potential coming more strongly from sensory areas vs including other processes more as well to be processed by the prefrontal cortex.

    I think its silly to talk of consciousness as one thing, when what people feel as being conscious actually comes from multiple things.

  • @lala said:

    @Ocsprey said:
    I didn't know what a boffin was, so I looked it up in the OED - etymology of egg-head, so yeah, you win this time @JohnnyGoodyear !

    if you are on a mac you can activate 3 finger touch to get look this up in loaded lexica
    if you mark a word on iOS it does the same ...
    i love this
    ^^ i had to look it up too

    Cool tip - I'm obsessed with words, and can't get my fill of a new one without OED. Interesting the origin of 'boffin' is unknown, 1941 being the 1st documented usage, as slang for an elderly naval officer, by '45 it took on the sense of back room scientist, by '54 it was also being used in the weakened sense of clever intellectual, with no social skills. There's a quote from the Economist referring to the Boffins Conference, referring to the Geneva Conference (I think), that sparked a memory of watching MASH - they'd always wait to hear the outcome, the ceasefire would fail, and the sirens would fire up. Anyway, the term isn't at all in use in the US (or if it is, I'm unaware) - what's the current sentiment? Latest OED entry is '93.

  • edited October 2016

    @Ocsprey said:
    Cool tip

    You can also just right click on mouse(or two finger click on touchpad ofc) on a word and select "Look up selected word"

  • edited October 2016

    @Ocsprey
    seams to be of british origin
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boffin

    Im no native english speaker,
    but if I hadn't looked it up I would guess the combinations of letters/sounds looks French to me ... but i am just guessing
    " Charles Dickens, who is described there as a "very odd-looking old fellow indeed".[3] In the novel, Mr Boffin"

    sounds like a Monsieur Boffin (insert some writing variation here) to me?
    (i guess u get what i mean)

  • edited October 2016

    ha
    https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre_Boffin

    lol, i am good at this
    its a french last name

    hahaha, the egghead found a mr. egghead and families of eggheads
    isn't that funny :D

    so i guess the origin is dickens mr. french egghead

  • @skiphunt said:
    "Specifically, they were looking at synchronisation of neurons - whether neurons were oscillating in phase with each other - to figure out whether brain cells were linked or not. "

    http://www.sciencealert.com/consciousness-could-be-a-result-of-entropy-say-researchers

    "In both situations, they saw the same trend - the participants' brains displayed higher entropy when in a fully conscious state."

    Or maybe consciousness was causing a higher rate of entropy, rather than the other way around.

    I'm reading an interesting book about the nature of consciousness at the moment, 'The Divine Spark'. Lots of theories bandied around: one being that our brains act as receivers, for a universal conscious transmission or some shit like that I dunno.

  • @ToMess said:
    Conscious awareness(or more like just awareness) of external world is created from information first being processed by some of the structures of midbrain, then combining that information with information processed by areas in sensory areas of the cortex. This combining of information also happens in midbrains. This is the basic thing that all animals have. But when it comes to consciousness as an executive functioning(what humans, and only a few other animals do), well thats just an illusion created in the prefrontal cortex when it starts to influence other areas of the brains. Conscious awareness of self/inner workings of the mind/imagination, comes from a switch in the frontal cortex that is able to focus the stream of action potential coming more strongly from sensory areas vs including other processes more as well to be processed by the prefrontal cortex.

    I think its silly to talk of consciousness as one thing, when what people feel as being conscious actually comes from multiple things.

    There is obviously a continuum that ranges from single-cell organism all the way to human being, but how even the most basic form of consciousness (reacting to environmental stimuli) arises from inert chemicals is a very interesting and profound mystery IMO, and sadly will not likely to be solved scientifically in our lifetimes.

    The study in that link just seems to make a correlation based on computer modelled data, but other than that doesn't reall explain anything. Surely the interesting questions are why and how?

    Oh, and boffin is common parlance in the UK, everyone knows the word, and it's how a tabloid newspaper would usually describe any kind of scientist.

  • edited October 2016

    hm, when is consciousness consciousness?
    does consciousness just mean reacting to stimuli
    or must (higher) consciousness be self aware ?

    it gets quite philosophical at this point ...

    a reflex is a reaction to a stimuli but you don't need much "brain" for that
    a plant can do this

  • My best mate is suffering a rather nasty form of brain cancer at the moment. He's seen the scans, he says his brain is 'a f****** mess' with half of it either damaged by the cancer, or removed by surgeons to stop it pushing his eyes out.

    Yet he is still the same bloke to talk to - same sense of humour, same personality, same frighteningly sharp intelligence. The loss if brain matter seems to be causing physical (loss of mobility), rather than mental issues.

  • edited October 2016

    @richardyot said: and sadly will not likely to be solved scientifically in our lifetimes.

    my thoughts exactly.

  • edited October 2016

    @MonzoPro said:
    My best mate is suffering a rather nasty form of brain cancer at the moment. He's seen the scans, he says his brain is 'a f****** mess' with half of it either damaged by the cancer, or removed by surgeons to stop it pushing his eyes out.

    Yet he is still the same bloke to talk to - same sense of humour, same personality, same frighteningly sharp intelligence. The loss if brain matter seems to be causing physical (loss of mobility), rather than mental issues.

    must be scary to see your brain being eaten by cancer
    while still being the normal you and not in some state of gaga bliss
    stay at this side he needs friends now
    bring him some weed so he feels a little better and keeps on eating

  • @lala said:

    @MonzoPro said:
    My best mate is suffering a rather nasty form of brain cancer at the moment. He's seen the scans, he says his brain is 'a f****** mess' with half of it either damaged by the cancer, or removed by surgeons to stop it pushing his eyes out.

    Yet he is still the same bloke to talk to - same sense of humour, same personality, same frighteningly sharp intelligence. The loss if brain matter seems to be causing physical (loss of mobility), rather than mental issues.

    must be scary to see your brain being eaten by cancer
    while still being the normal you and not in some state of gaga bliss
    stay at this side he needs friends now

    Yeah, I think he'd welcome some gaga time. Worse for him is the way he's being treated by the NHS and social services, but I won't go into that here, just thought his story was relevant to the entropy/brain/consciousness thing.

  • It is a bit of a flawed proposition to consider that consciousness arises from entropy alone. If that were the case, soil would be conscious, as would the clouds in the sky, and the asteroid belt would be becoming conscious. Of course, this may well be true, but there's no evidence that clouds and soil are conscious, as they have little to no decision making capabilities to evaluate and respond to stimuli, and make fundamental decisions such as act/no act; act forward/reverse/go round to the left/go round to the right. Before you know it, we've civilisation.

  • Thanks for posting :) Sounds like logical reasoning and maths/probability. There's a higher chance of new connections and interesting things happen with larger amounts of randomization and chaos are introduced over time, which the universe has in spades. So consciousness most probably takes as long as the Earth has existed in a stable universe to be created given the right conditions. Although there seems to be less and less of it around where I live. Whether it's common in the Universe or can be recreated artificially is another interesting thing....

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